Best Thread The Basics of Trading

Yes I have sat through several very good Options presentations and they drive me potty with the silly language, Greeks and all that stuff. I can see that if you had a large amount of capital and are very risk averse then they would probably suit you. They are also expensive to trade compared to Spreadbetting FTSE100 stocks. Why spend your limited money lining a brokers pocket?

I think this is probably a good discussion to have for lots of peoples benefits. I don't know if Peter G is around to comment?
 
Helenqu said:
Yes I have sat through several very good Options presentations and they drive me potty with the silly language, Greeks and all that stuff. I can see that if you had a large amount of capital and are very risk averse then they would probably suit you. They are also expensive to trade compared to Spreadbetting FTSE100 stocks. Why spend your limited money lining a brokers pocket?

I think this is probably a good discussion to have for lots of peoples benefits. I don't know if Peter G is around to comment?

You don't need to know a thing about the greeks, just the chart direction, the price and the time frame - KISS :cheesy:

You also don't need a huge amount of capital, you certainly don't need to be risk averse and they can be traded as spreadbets.

Whether they are better/worse for NI to trade, given his time and capital constraints and abilities, I don't know - that is for him to find out.

they drive me potty with the silly language

Of course, he may prefer the easier language of swing trading:

Adam & Eve & Adam
Adam & Eve tops
Hell's triangle
The Big W
Bunny Slopes
David & Goliath
Bad Hair Day

to mention but a few........
 
Can I just point out a teeny weeny little thing ?

From my point of view I am still learning, i.e. at the educational stage. :eek:

Is this discussion not jumping the gun to the time when I should start live trading? Or am I missing the point here? Should I start trading now, with the little knowledge I have, and learn by bitter experience?

What would I need to learn about the basics of trading?
Surely we should discuss the longer term pros and cons once I have established a strategy that I feel I can trade with. Then we can start talking about time and capital constraints as these are NOT as restrictive as my current circumstances. IMVHO

I appreciate the idea of KISS, bt the ensuing strategy/style etc may not suit me. Better I should know the options and the in's and out's of each option. Then I can choose for myself with your guidance as to how to go about making it a success.
 
Hi NI,

OK if you haven't done already read JJ Murphy - Technical Analysis of the Financial Markets :)
 
Hi NI,

Apologies for getting side-tracked :!:

Some more questions before you go any further:

1. The Money - If you are to open an account with £1000. How much of that cash are you prepared to lose per trade?

This will give some pointers as to what kind of trading vehicle you can actually use, both in terms of products traded ( Stocks, Futures, Options etc...) and the method in which they can be traded (Spreadbetting, CFD, geared etc...)

2. The Time - You say an hour per day - is that an hour of trading with 1/2 an hour preparation, or is that the total amount of time in any given day that you are prepared to spend - and is it 1 complete hour, or 15 minutes over 4 hours?

Also, at what time of the day does the hour occur - morning, midday or evening?

This will give some direction as to what set of markets you can trade (UK or US) - which in turn will affect what kind of account you can open.

i.e. there is no point opening a UK Futures account if you can't fund it, the products are too 'rich' for you, the risk is way more than you can stand, and you can't trade it anyway because you don't get anywhere near a screen until 1800 in the evening.

I'm sure you get the drift.
 
A Soldier’s Strategy

FTSEBeater – thanks for the table on timings. This naturally leads me to ponder how to select stocks that exhibit Postion/Swing rather than EOD characteristics. But this perhaps jumping ahead a stage…

Hullo NastyItch. Excellent post and if I knew how to vote for it then I would !

(and of course anyone else who wishes to join in)

Okay then. (However, in the time it has taken me to write this tonight, TBS has replied but, FWIW, I’m still going to post).

I have also been sorting through the posts on the IPT board (TMF) and would also recommend it. I have read some thought provoking posts on the psychological aspects of trading by, or involving, TBS over on Bullet Points too. What follows is not as knowledgeable as some postings on IPT but hopefully it will help (me) move forward.

1. What do you want to get out of this? - I know you have a target of replacing the day job, but in purely physical terms, how much hard cash do you have to make per year?

- I want to determine if I can ascertain a standard of TA knowledge and psychological well being level to facilitate making a living. As with NI: pre tax £150, after tax £100, a day would be targets.
- A life that I feel I am more in control of. Am tired of being at the whim of others and the daily grind that leaves me exhausted before I step through the front door at night. There must be another way. I have a genuine interest.
- Timing. I had initially thought that I’d see if I had the aptitude for successful trading by 31 Dec 2003 but 2-4 years…is this allowing for a day job too?

Why have I chosen specific markets
Well, at this stage I haven’t. The rudimentary steps I have taken thus far have been EOD paper trades on UK stocks, mainly because of familiarity. I have no strong preference for this, though, and indeed this is part of Trading Stumbling Block #1 – What to trade I realise this is linked to time available and my temperament etc, but until I find out more, I will stick to UK shares.

How much time do you have to spend on this?
First thing in the mornings (get in early before officially start work), lunchtimes and a couple of hours in the evenings (if I have enough energy – three ankle biters to help put to bed first). Currently tying to get into a routine to paper trade ‘what I see’ in the charts i.e. trends, support and resistance. I always think I’ll have a bit of extra time at the weekend but it rarely works out this way unless I’m selfish.

How much money are you prepared to lose learning?
Well, my understanding is that I’ll lose more trades than I’ll win but through FTSE Beater’s lead on risk/reward, I hope to actually make money. Let us say that initially that my losing trades will still wipe out any gains then I’ll concur with NastyItch and say a £1,000. I intend, from my learning thus far, that 20% will be directed towards TBS.

If I have lost this amount of money through dealing at 1p/point (for 8 weeks and then 50-100p/point thereafter) then perhaps this is not for me. Or rather I am not for it.

What is your level of risk tolerance?
I have two answers to this one
(a) High. Initially. Then. Low.

Or, ‘it depends’ on my capital. Which isn’t huge. Whilst I am working at the day job, I am prepared to be a bit more chancy. I envisage locking away ‘section gains’ i.e. make £1,000, pop it away in a ‘pot’ and begin again with original capital; make £1,500, put this away…

(b) isn’t the answer to this ‘Understand money management’ i.e. the general consensus is to bet no more than 1% of your capital. I recently read an article that you needed a capital base of £200,000. Now, I’ve some savings tucked away but …

This large capital base/just risk 1% of capital per trade is my Trading Stumbling Block #2.

Can you monitor prices during the day?
I can check from time to time but have to be careful here. I’d envisage employing stop losses because (a) from all the reading I have done/am doing, this is single most important rule – cut your losses, and (b) takes the emotion out of the trade.

As with NI, I am not sure of a trading style – given time constraints, I guess (from FTSE Beater’s table above) then position or EOD. Would techniques learnt from such trading be applicable to trading for a living strategies? I imagine this will develop as I progress.

Do you want to trade and fit it in round a job?
Ditto NI : Initially yes.
The ultimate aim is to replace the day job. I cringe as I write this, as, Trading Stumbling Block #3 rears its head : “90-95% of traders lose money”. Some days I think, given this statistic, what makes me think I can be in the winning 5-10%..?
Yep, interested to understand how you can have a day AND night job AND begin to learn about trading, NI…

And more to the topic, looks to me like Spreadbetting UK stocks with a D4F account and a swing trading strategy would stand you in good stead. A subscription to Sharescope and later on Pfscan would be all your would need to do a good job, you can monitor prices for free on ADVFN.

How does that sound?


Not sure when to invest in software.

There are several other factors, I guess , which come into play here. Not least of all family pressure for time and reliance on steady income.

This one is Trading Stumbling Block #4 – Can I seriously get myself into a position to support my family ?

What should buy / When should I buy / When should I sell / how can I reduce my risk

Building on this burgeoning interest in TA, which after flirting with FA (see above) somehow ‘feels right’. I am looking at trends and patterns, support and resistance. Buy just above support and sell as approach resistance. On every potential bet, am going through the risk/reward exercise (minimum = 2:1). Always think about what the plan is and then carry it out. Always know where my stop loss is. Always have a target price. Consider moving stop losses if trade goes in my favour. Money management = always ensure that if the stop loss is hit, the money lost will never exceed 1% of the capital account. Although I make never win big, I should always be around to play again. Small, sure and often to be etched into my monitor.

Can I psychologically carry out this strategy?
Not sure. Time will tell once the emotional aspect of trading kicks in.

Once you have come back with those answers then you can start to put together a plan of action which will start to form around these sorts of questions

Well, I believe I’m not an expert in anything in life - more jack of many things and master of none. But I have several characteristics that serve me well in my job and in my life in general – discipline, methodical, refusal to give up, enjoy researching new subjects before acting (this can lead sometimes to paralysis by analysis), self reliant and not afraid to ask (silly) questions for fear making a fool of myself.

Constructive comments welcome.

SoldierofOne
 
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Hi Helen

JJMurphy was one of the first books Hairy from Hull suggested I read. I am half way through it, but decided theory was all good and well, I need soem practical exposure to back up some of his teachings. Hence my appearance on these boards.

Soldier, great post. Got me thinking more about several aspect I had not considered. Thanks for joining in.

TBS

Answers to your questions:

(not too worry about being side-tracked, its er, um ... interesting shall we say :!: :!: )

1. The Money - If you are to open an account with £1000. How much of that cash are you prepared to lose per trade?
Well common sense suggests a small amount per trade and not too many trades at one time, in order to protect as much capital for as long as possible. To put numbers to these ideas it seems the norm, from several other posts I've seen, to not risk more than 1-2% per trade and no more than 3% in total. I am prepared to risk a few more points than this 'in learning mode'. Ultimately I look on the £1000 as a cost to setting up this business and as such regard it as a irretrievable expense.

Question: Are asking this in view of a learning programme or actual trading time?
When it comes to trading proper I expect to have to change my circumstances to allow much more time for trading and research.

2. The Time - You say an hour per day - is that an hour of trading with 1/2 an hour preparation, or is that the total amount of time in any given day that you are prepared to spend - and is it 1 complete hour, or 15 minutes over 4 hours?
At least an hour per day during the trading day UK time. More during the evening for US or research time. At present I can usually spend a few hours during the day, but this could change within a few weeks so I am using this time to get over the learning curve, rather than as a trading period that will always be available to me.

As always TVM
 
HelenQ e-mailed me to look at this thread!!
I'm Peter G mentioned. Currently I'm on Jury Service and i'm basically brain dead all the time.

I'll have a read through and if I think i can contribute then I will, but don't hold ypour breath while I'm doing this!!
 
:) ... hi ALL!!

For i.e my case:
I pretend to start w/ £1200 account next week , this just in terms of shares capital. because before there was the
investment in books, computer, broadband connection, this because the data and the research I am using is all free , advfn, yahoo,forums so at least this put me in the level of minimum at £2000 which you can say is quite an expensive "game" to get into when you still are a beginner and know there is sharks we talking about, who's going to play against us...
So if I keep following the advice I will start with a trade of 10%=£120 where I will never gonna risk more then 3% max per trade , in terms of capital (and this supposing the co. which you invest don't go bust like i.e enron) in this some trade =£4 so like this will give me a very small margin for movements in share price without triggering a stop order?
Until where we should follow the "rules ?
The potential for a good growth is very gloomy at least in terms of capital returns...so more and more I get to a conclusion at least for the next 3/4 years I will not be prepared to make a change for be a permanent trader, this not talking just about capital wise, for mainly in terms of trading knowledge , confidence and analysis of the markets news and acting in conform, so .... it's a long and painfully process all of this trading for a living...
maybe I have the wrong leads, I mean instead of investing everthing ( all the capital) in one share try to diverse your portofolio in different sectors and notr start with all the "comforts" in terms of resources otherwise the cost will shoot up and you will go bust very quick !!! maybe I am wrongly starting my trading business, but for now I just can see it a Little like a profitable Hobie if I learn it properly...
 
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Hi esiotrot (Peter G)

I’m interested in a couple of the posts between Helen and TBS re: Options, especially the following bit:-


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Helenqu
I think Options are way too complicated for a beginner. Not only have you got the chart stuff but you also have the added time factor and all the silly language that goes with it. KISS.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and TBS replied

Have you actually spent any time looking at them?

It is only a suggestion that springs immediately to mind given the time constraints that NI has. The languabe is a lot eaier than some of the flowery 'swing' trading set-ups.

Better to leave no avenue un-explored at this point.


This last sentence has me intrigued and IF / WHEN you have the time – and energy - any input would be greatfully received.

Cheers
Andrew
(SoldierofOne)
 
Hi all
Wow!! You guys sure do post a lot of info. It’s taken me hours to read through that lot. I’m sorry I did not pick up on this thread when it opened.

OK – I think I understand at least the recent stuff on this thread.
Also OK –I’ll hold my hand up and say: “It’s a fair cop – I trade Options” Or maybe to be more precise I trade UK stock Options. I do not trade index options or US Options. Neither do I write (sell) Stock or Index Options

Let me ask a question – do you need to know in detail how an internal combustion engine works to drive a car?? Answer – no, you just jump in and drive. Some people become “car bores” and can tell you everything about the double overhead cams and valve seats and all that nonsense (sorry guys). Maybe Helen has met too many “Option Bores”.

Several points worth making about the original post from NI and probably the most important reply is FB about time frames. I probably spend less than 20 minutes a day at my PC and perhaps an hour at weekends. This is specifically looking at EOD charts for UK stock options. I believe everything is in the price. My charts show bars, volume and Bollinger bands. I use trendlines and support and resistance levels. When I first started TA I used every indicator under the sun thinking that more is better. Then I spent time looking for the perfect indicator. Now I rarely use any indicators at all. If I look at any it would be ma’s (flexible trendlines), MACD or RSI.

Options can be as simple or as complicated as you what to make them. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty then of course there’s details you must understand but so there is with anything else. Using TA and trying to establish direction and likely targets for a limited number of stocks does not take long. You do not need the “Greeks” or any of the other complications often associated with Options. You do need to be AWARE of the relative movement of the option price as the underlying stock moves but the main item of attention is the stock price because if the stock is moving in the right direction then the option probably is too. I use Mytrack and you get Option Information for free with the basic service.

Time decay is also a reason to be nervous as expiry approaches but normal caution should keep you out at this point.

With an Option contract equivalent to 1000 shares I am usually looking at £5 to £10 per point movement. I use Options as my trading vehicle because of the leverage, I’m using an option costing me say £200 as a surrogate for stock worth around £2000 or more.

At the end of the day all trading involves making the choice between BUY/SELL/DO NOTHING.

Whether you could make a big income from small capital is another question and I suspect the answer is NO. However trading Options using EOD data is a fairly relaxed way of trading for real money while learning basic TA skills with limited time available.

Early in this thread FTSEbeater put up some stocks to discuss re:targets etc perhaps it might be of assistance to repeat this exercise and in addition try to get an idea of how the stock might be traded as an Option. Or maybe that’s getting away from the purpose of this thread and should go somewhere else??
 
Hi Esiotrot

I'll put up some more charts to discuss tomorrow.
If you could do options trading as a new thread - that would be brilliant.

Thanks :)
 
You will have to make sure that the charts you use have options available - probably different for spreadbetting rather than the 'real' world - which is why most UK options traders use US options as UK ones are rarely worth it (ihmo) other than on the indices.

Here is a list of the UK shares that have mainstream options:

http://www.theblindsquirrel.com/pages/lifopt.htm

Here is a link to the 'European style' UK index options:

http://www.liffe-data.com/PricesPageAll.aspx?t=OESX/O.LI

.. and the 'American style' UK index options:

http://www.liffe-data.com/PricesPageAll.aspx?t=OSEI/O.LI

I'll have a look over the thread over the w/end to see if I have anything to add - been a bit busy over the past few days.
 
Hi TBS
You are dead right about the UK stocks and what makes matters worse is that of the approx. 90 stocks which have options associated with them, a large number are pretty useless.
Various reasons: small number of options in circulation (open interest) and hopeless charts are the two main ones.

However once you have eliminated the useless ones, the ones left - around 25 perhaps do have some merit for a trader with very limited time. The problem that now raises itself is that trading opportunities don't come along very often and I spend a lot of time sitting on my hands. This is the reason, I guess, that most professional Option traders go to the US market where there are a v large number of Option Stocks.

Just as a side issue; where can you go to download daily EOD data for US stocks? Plus historical data? I probably should know this but I don't.
 
Hi esiotrot,

We (TBSL) only trade about 6 UK options (other than indices options)

Off the top of my head:

IMT
BSY
RBOS
BARC
RIO
GSK

There are probably a couple of others. Most of our options trading is in US stocks, with the occasional European thrown in for fun! - but then we only sell options.

I'm not sure where you would get US EOD historical data, get hold of Helen or JT they will probably be able to point you in the right direction
 
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Hi Peter,

I think you might find what you want here at a price:
http://www.downloadquotes.com/en/

You might find that a Bronze sub to Mytrack $5 or so a month will also give you what you want.

(PS - I want to make it plain that YOUR Options presentation was very clear :))
 
What happens when discipline fails?

Hi all

I have mentioned a number of times that you DON’T move a stop-loss to increase risk, and I wanted to go through the “what if” scenario of letting a stop run.

We’ll take this example from Barclays back in Early January.


BARCPD1.GIF


Here we have a nice double or triple bottom on support, and a clean bounce up. You take this long entry with a tight manual stop at 360.
This is happens over the days to come


BARCPD2.GIF


Brilliant, straight into profit and looking good :)
The following week isn’t so promising though :rolleyes:


BARCPD3.GIF


You hear yourself saying

Ok the price has gone through support, but it’s ok, it closed above support so it’ll be ok
So you leave it for a bit, and this happens :eek:


BARCPD4.GIF


Oh no the price has gone through support, ok it’s too late to sell now, I’ll wait until price gets back up to the support line.


BARCPD5.GIF


Now price has made a nice rounded bottom so the next move is up, I can let it run for a while longer as it’s bound to go through the resistance level
and the next thing you know price does this.


BARCPD6.GIF


Time to sell out and except the loss
Well it’s good to know you cut the loss – some 35 points or 10% below where you should have done. :(

It’s very easily done this, and I’m sure most traders have done this at some point in their trading career. This is why discipline is such a large part of trading. Always remember to move a stop to protect profits NOT to increase risk.


It’s about time I did some imaginary trades, so here goes:

Your in the following trades

<table border="1"> <tr><td>No.</td><td>Ticker</td><td>Name</td><td>Long/Short</td><td>www.ADVFN.com Link</td></tr> <tr><td>1</td><td>BARC</td><td>Barclays</td><td>Long</td><td>http://www.advfn.com/cmn/chrt/chrt_...0&ind1_2=&ind2_2=&ind_type3=0&ind1_3=&ind2_3=</td></tr> <tr><td>2</td><td>DXNS</td><td>Dixons </td><td>Short</td><td> http://www.advfn.com/cmn/chrt/chrt_...0&ind1_2=&ind2_2=&ind_type3=0&ind1_3=&ind2_3=</td></tr> <tr><td>3</td><td>MKS</td><td>Marks & Spencer</td><td>Short</td><td> http://www.advfn.com/cmn/chrt/chrt_...0&ind1_2=&ind2_2=&ind_type3=0&ind1_3=&ind2_3= </td></tr> <tr><td>4</td><td>OML</td><td>Old Mutual</td><td>Short</td><td> http://www.advfn.com/cmn/chrt/chrt_...0&ind1_2=&ind2_2=&ind_type3=0&ind1_3=&ind2_3=</td></tr> <tr><td>5</td><td>TSCO</td><td>Tesco</td><td>Long</td><td>http://www.advfn.com/cmn/chrt/chrt_...&ind1_2=&ind2_2=&ind_type3=0&ind1_3=&ind2_3= </td></tr> </table>

Same as before, give targets and stop-losses as well as risk / reward calculations. Looking at 6 month charts, which won’t be easy with the current war situation :(

As always there is no right or wrong answers and I would love to hear from you.

Take care,
 
Hi FB

Right, so I've opend my big mouth, now time to change feet :cheesy: :cheesy:

Nice post BTW.

BARC (I know round figures shouldn't be used, but there you go :!: :!: )
Enter long 378
Target 480
Stop 240
R/R 2.7

DXNS
This is a tight one and I wouldn't trade this other than on intraday with a v. good data feed and charting s/w, but:
Enter short 88
Target 80
Stop 90 (support turning to resistance)
R/R 4 (nice but you gotta watch this one carefully)

MKS
Enter short 286
Target 260
Stop 293
R/R 3.71

OML
Bit of a dicey one this for me
Enter short 75 There is support at 78, 77,and 76
Target 69
Stop 77
R/R 3

TSCO
Enter long 192
Target 208 (but watching this as it could be 230 slightly longer term)
Stop 185
R/R 2.29


Love to hear your feedback

Cheers
 
Hi FTSE Beater and NastyItch
Hope you are both well. FWIW, here are my observations on the above charts (and so as not to be influenced by NI (!) I’ve not looked at his post…)
Prices as of close today

Barclays
Following a failed inverse h+s, I can now see a rising neckline inverse h+s
Long @ 373p
Target 410p
SL 360p
R/R 2.8

Dixons
Trendline is down here; big gap in early Jan
Short @ 85.5p
Target 70p
SL 100p
R/R 1.1

M&S
Looks like now in a continuation trend. Already seen one breakout of this pattern and more likely to see another (‘the trend is your friend’)
Short @ 284p
Target 275p
SL 300p
R/R 0.6 (perhaps not a trade at the moment)

Old Mutual
mmm…bit tricky. Frankly, not much idea here
if breach 83p, long with target of 87. SL of 80p. R/R 1.3
if breach 78p, short with target of 71. SL of 80p. R/R 3.5

Tesco
Looks like a flag and the chart is pausing for breath.
Long @ 176p
Target 205p
SL 170p
R/R 4.8

Cheers

SoldierofOne
 
Hi NI
Just checked with your post…we seem to have called the charts in the same direction (!?!) but you are definitely more aggressive than me on Barclays and M&S; this may be a function of time between analysis perhaps.

Out of curiosity, what is your thinking for a target of 480p for BARC?

mmm...<thinking mode>... On my rising neckline (or am I seeing things?), I was thinking of seeing if it was tested first; if there was a breakout upwards at this point then I would employ a rising stop loss (c 410p) and look for the 480p figure...

Cheers

SoldierofOne
 
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