fudgestain
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Wrong again.bundbaby said:
I'm not talking about or suggesting dumb tax evasion scams a la Piggot.
No one has moral obligation to the tax man.
From the Deal4Free website:
The position as we understand for UK Residents it is that currently under case law, betting winnings are generally not subject to tax. Where spreadbetting is done on an ad-hoc basis, and as the law currently stands, winnings are not taxable. However if for example banks and investment firms started wholesale spreadbetting to complement their dealings in other financial instruments, then it would be quite likely that the tax authorities would challenge such a scenario and 'could' seek to have income generated from such activites taxed.
In addition, this status would also appear to apply to professional 'gamblers' and 'spreadbetters' where as it currently stands, the inland revenue do not seek generally to tax winnings on spreadbetting. It does appear that should the tax authorities wish to incorporate taxing such winnings in the future they would need to seek an amendment.
This does not however preclude individuals who may have a very particular position or case which creates a situation that applies to their own specific circumstances.
JonnyT
The position as we understand for UK Residents it is that currently under case law, betting winnings are generally not subject to tax. Where spreadbetting is done on an ad-hoc basis, and as the law currently stands, winnings are not taxable. However if for example banks and investment firms started wholesale spreadbetting to complement their dealings in other financial instruments, then it would be quite likely that the tax authorities would challenge such a scenario and 'could' seek to have income generated from such activites taxed.
In addition, this status would also appear to apply to professional 'gamblers' and 'spreadbetters' where as it currently stands, the inland revenue do not seek generally to tax winnings on spreadbetting. It does appear that should the tax authorities wish to incorporate taxing such winnings in the future they would need to seek an amendment.
This does not however preclude individuals who may have a very particular position or case which creates a situation that applies to their own specific circumstances.
JonnyT
"Tax Evasion is worse than Murder, Tax Avoidance is no defence when the rules can be interpreted any way they want." ...rubbish , managing tax is almost a national pastime in most countries therefore taking your statement at face value half the population of the world would either be on death row or behind bars !
It's a game that's all it is ... our govt wants what you have got and you want to keep as much of it as legally possible ..the only question is can you save more in tax liability than it costs you to do same ...unfortunately for most people it's the norm that the more money you have got the more options become open to you to save tax.
Of course we now have a scenario where the accts who who propose these schemes must now seek acceptance for those schemes from the IRS or suffer the penalties ..inevitably this will scratch some of the more dubious schemes that have been concocted in the past ...eg taking the bulk of one's remuneration in rare wine etc..
To counter this we will also inevitably see 'new' methods arising of managing tax liability ..it's no different to the IT world where MS bring out a new piece of software containing new safeguards which the hackers immediately try to breakdown ..the circle of life
It's a game that's all it is ... our govt wants what you have got and you want to keep as much of it as legally possible ..the only question is can you save more in tax liability than it costs you to do same ...unfortunately for most people it's the norm that the more money you have got the more options become open to you to save tax.
Of course we now have a scenario where the accts who who propose these schemes must now seek acceptance for those schemes from the IRS or suffer the penalties ..inevitably this will scratch some of the more dubious schemes that have been concocted in the past ...eg taking the bulk of one's remuneration in rare wine etc..
To counter this we will also inevitably see 'new' methods arising of managing tax liability ..it's no different to the IT world where MS bring out a new piece of software containing new safeguards which the hackers immediately try to breakdown ..the circle of life
When a customer opens an account with an SB there is a fine print stating: "Tax laws can of course change." So what's the point believing it is tax free?
When a customer opens a trust with a tax haven, besides paying more in legal fees, accounting fees etc etc etc, even if the tax haven promises anonymity for the trust or company's real owners, but the incorporators know who the real owners are. By putting his trust on the tax haven's honorable professionals he puts his life at stake, not knowing when those "honorable" professionals will betray his trust.
To make it worse they may even mock at him, when he discovers that they have betrayed him, "You have no proof!"
When a customer opens a trust with a tax haven, besides paying more in legal fees, accounting fees etc etc etc, even if the tax haven promises anonymity for the trust or company's real owners, but the incorporators know who the real owners are. By putting his trust on the tax haven's honorable professionals he puts his life at stake, not knowing when those "honorable" professionals will betray his trust.
To make it worse they may even mock at him, when he discovers that they have betrayed him, "You have no proof!"
Due diligence ... if you don't do it life will screw you ..and that applies to most elements of life not simply the one under discussion ..the alternative of course is ..nothing ..that's right simply do nothing .. no risk and therefore no reward ..same old , same old there is no escaping it.
I ask again are there any pro traders out there actually using Spredbetting to completely 100% replace traditional tradingsuch as say, futures marhets?
Do you think it stands up us a tax loophole for the professional - and if so can u share some of your knowledge with us?
Do you think it stands up us a tax loophole for the professional - and if so can u share some of your knowledge with us?
Hi all .
Interesting thread but here is a thought.
If we assume that a high & of traders say 80% lose rather than win then surley it is not in the Revenue's interest to tax spreadbetting as then they would have to allow deductions for Capital loses as well.
This in turn could reduce their revenue take.
all IMHO of course
Interesting thread but here is a thought.
If we assume that a high & of traders say 80% lose rather than win then surley it is not in the Revenue's interest to tax spreadbetting as then they would have to allow deductions for Capital loses as well.
This in turn could reduce their revenue take.
all IMHO of course
You are all naive.
The IR will apply rules to individual circumstances as per the note I attached.
i.e. You make too much and its your source of income then it will be taxed. If you make a loss tough they won't apply the rule as you are not conducting a trade!!!
JonnyT
The IR will apply rules to individual circumstances as per the note I attached.
i.e. You make too much and its your source of income then it will be taxed. If you make a loss tough they won't apply the rule as you are not conducting a trade!!!
JonnyT
that was my gut reaction JT,
and it still is - although there are people out there who disagree with you. I think you are spot on, but hey, if someone is managing to earn that way PROFESSIONALLY tax free then it would be nice to hear about his or her experiences.
BB
and it still is - although there are people out there who disagree with you. I think you are spot on, but hey, if someone is managing to earn that way PROFESSIONALLY tax free then it would be nice to hear about his or her experiences.
BB
T69
theres a world of difference between the "PROFESSIONAL" gambler, spread better, trader, and the guy who is deemed to do that not as a professional - Wise Up please - this is the point.
Where are the professional spread betters - what are you guys doing?
At the moment I think your silence here probably reflects your silence to tne Tax Man. After all, at the moment, when he comes to get you, I suppose you can always plead Ignorance - he'll still take your house though if he thinks you owe the IR money !!!!!!
Point to note for tax dodgers: The onus is on you to prove where it came from, its not innocent til proven guilty with these guys, never has been, never will, and once your case is given to a tax officer at special compliance office, He is a rottweiler and he will not let go! ! ! ! !
theres a world of difference between the "PROFESSIONAL" gambler, spread better, trader, and the guy who is deemed to do that not as a professional - Wise Up please - this is the point.
Where are the professional spread betters - what are you guys doing?
At the moment I think your silence here probably reflects your silence to tne Tax Man. After all, at the moment, when he comes to get you, I suppose you can always plead Ignorance - he'll still take your house though if he thinks you owe the IR money !!!!!!
Point to note for tax dodgers: The onus is on you to prove where it came from, its not innocent til proven guilty with these guys, never has been, never will, and once your case is given to a tax officer at special compliance office, He is a rottweiler and he will not let go! ! ! ! !
I've posted something similar elsewhere, but the info. I was given by my tax office was quite clear. Income form spread betting is tax free. It need not be declared to the IR. That's it end of story. (at least as the law stands at the moment).
If, however, income from any form of betting or gambling is your SOLE source of income, then the revenue could argue that you were a sole trader. As such you would then have to submit accounts for tax purposes, and pay National Insurance just like any other business. (Under these circumstances, I presume that losing bets would be a cost you could offset against profit).
The person I spoke to was not aware of any cases where this had happened, and was not aware of discussions on it at their (large) office.
Hope this helps.
If, however, income from any form of betting or gambling is your SOLE source of income, then the revenue could argue that you were a sole trader. As such you would then have to submit accounts for tax purposes, and pay National Insurance just like any other business. (Under these circumstances, I presume that losing bets would be a cost you could offset against profit).
The person I spoke to was not aware of any cases where this had happened, and was not aware of discussions on it at their (large) office.
Hope this helps.
Physicsman
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What Is Your Interpretation For The Following?
I found the following on Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs website (apologies if already posted elsewhere): http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM22000.htm
(Trade: exceptions & alternatives: contents)
the 2 articles you will want to read are:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM22017.htm
(Trade: exceptions & alternatives: betting and gambling: the professional gambler)
and
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM22020.htm
(Trade: exceptions & alternatives: betting and gambling: spread betting)
To quote the second: "To be taxable, the spread betting wins must come not merely from an opportunity presented by a trade, they must arise from the carrying on of that trade. Whether or not a particular spread bet is taxable will depend on the terms of the contract and the economic substance of what is done."
What is your interpretation on that?
My interpretation is that if as part of your job you have to make Spreadbets and you win, then those winnings are taxable. If you have no job, or your 'job' is full time Spreadbetting, any winnings cannot be taxed as you are at most addicted to gambling as per the first article. (Maybe you should attend Gamblers Anonymous? :cheesy: )
I'd be very much interesting in knowing your thoughts!
I found the following on Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs website (apologies if already posted elsewhere): http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM22000.htm
(Trade: exceptions & alternatives: contents)
the 2 articles you will want to read are:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM22017.htm
(Trade: exceptions & alternatives: betting and gambling: the professional gambler)
and
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM22020.htm
(Trade: exceptions & alternatives: betting and gambling: spread betting)
To quote the second: "To be taxable, the spread betting wins must come not merely from an opportunity presented by a trade, they must arise from the carrying on of that trade. Whether or not a particular spread bet is taxable will depend on the terms of the contract and the economic substance of what is done."
What is your interpretation on that?
My interpretation is that if as part of your job you have to make Spreadbets and you win, then those winnings are taxable. If you have no job, or your 'job' is full time Spreadbetting, any winnings cannot be taxed as you are at most addicted to gambling as per the first article. (Maybe you should attend Gamblers Anonymous? :cheesy: )
I'd be very much interesting in knowing your thoughts!
fudgestain
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Gambling away as a spread-betting speculator (ie independent individual traders) means you are not going to get taxed even if you score big time with profits.Physicsman said:
But don't confuse this with trading futures.