Scalping

No, you're not wasting your time if you're scalping for a tick or two in ZN, ZB, GBL, GBM where the margins and vol are low. You could probably come up with a decent strategy in ES aswell. For CL, DAX etc your going to have some trouble.

When I talk about software I'm not talking about the next greatest elliot wave calculator, I'm talking about fast execution software. The retail guy has a chance with a decent internet connection and good data.

I agree - ZB - $2 per r/t retail commission, $31.25 a tick.

That's the sort of market where you have a fighting chance IMO. Commissions won't eat you alive, neither will the spread. You could scale up to 100s of contracts with no worries at all.

Have to have the patience of a saint though.

Still, I'm open minded to methods that scalp in and out of less liquid markets, it is just very alien to me.
 
Did anyone actually read that latency arb PDF I posted.
Its not just a speed game, that alone would be tough enough.
The Latency arb HFT's see all the orders and trades before anyone else...
Extracts from here:
http://www.themistrading.com/articl..._--_Latency_Arbitrage_--_December_4__2009.pdf
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/145690-scalping-10.html#post1805484

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EXTRACT 1:
The Reality of Latency Arbitrage:
In practice, however, Latency Arbitrage means something completely different to HFTs.
Firstly, it is about using cutting edge technology and co-located servers at exchanges and ATSs, combined with
purchases of raw data feeds from these market centers, to create one’s own inside National Best Bid and Offer
(NBBO) quote and depth of book substantially earlier than what is publicly available from the Security
Information Processor, or SIP quote
. The SIP feeds quotes seen on professional terminals, algo trading
systems used by institutions for as much as 50% of their orders, and quotes seen by retail investors on Internet
sites.

EXTRACT 2:
Do HFT firms have an unfair
advantage? Most professionals on Wall Street have taken a standard from our past for granted, that
everyone sees the same quote and market data at the same time. What if the time differential between
what the HFTs see and what everybody else sees was 5 minutes instead of 5 milliseconds? Would that be
acceptable? It is not the amount of time that matters. It’s that a differential exists at all. Who would bet on
a horse race if a select group already knew who won?


EXTRACT 3:
Latency Arbitrage has created a two-tiered market of technology enhanced insiders (comprised of a handful
of large banks, brokerage firms and hedge funds) and the rest of us. To be clear, HFTs only enjoy this
advantage because market centers are selling them the right to co-locate and access raw data feeds. As
for-profit organizations, market centers are incentivized to do this. Which leads us to question number two:
Is it fair to sell these rights to the highest bidders when market centers are supposed to be protecting all
participants’ interests equally? At the end of the day, aren’t market centers charging HFTs a higher fee in
exchange for giving them an advance look at the NBBO?



EXTRACT 4:
HFTs use Latency Arbitrage to re-engineer the NBBO from end sources directly versus relying on the publically
available standard SIP quote. HFTs are able to do this by paying exchanges and ATSs for the right to locate
their servers next to market center data servers and matching engines and the right to access raw data feeds.
As a result, HFTs know with near certainty what the market will be milliseconds ahead of everybody else –
valuable knowledge that HFTs take advantage of when they trade thousands of stocks, thousands of times,
every trading day. For HFTs, it is like shooting ducks in a barrel of honey. For all other institutional and retail
investors, it is death by a thousand cuts.

To date, this situation has been tolerated because most investors were unaware that two different quotes
existed and could not fathom that those in charge of overseeing the markets would allow this to happen. Why
would most investors assume that they looked at different quotes? Why would most investors assume that they
weren’t watching the same horse race? Now we are at a crucial juncture in terms of our financial market’s
structure. The time has come for us to ask, “Is short-term fleeting liquidity (in our most liquid names) worth the
tradeoff of accepting a multi-tiered and unequal market?”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again just to be clear, not knocking anyone or saying you can't do it.
If it works for you, more power to ya.
Lets not kid anyone though that the odds are against you with retail quotes and consumer net connections.
Under those conditions, scalping for 1 tick as a retailer where is the edge?

I would concede that a retailer may be catching the VWAP algo moves that
were suckered in by the latency arb HFT in the first place...now that is irony :)
 
Good post, but that applies to the equity markets. When the robots get on the Eurex and CME, they have to get in the same line up as I do.

Not saying it makes the game easier and they can't get in line before I even know where it starts, but it's not quite as rigged against retail in the derivatives market.
 
Fair point.
Personally I think its just a matter of time before most exchanges follow suit.
All I'm trying to say is that I can only see retail scalping getting harder over time.
As I said before, if it works for you :cool:
 
Fair point.
Personally I think its just a matter of time before most exchanges follow suit.
All I'm trying to say is that I can only see retail scalping getting harder over time.
As I said before, if it works for you :cool:

Why anyone bothers is beyond me. You've got to climb the mountain, of course. But why choose to do it up the steepest side wearing clown shoes with a sack of spanners tied to your back?
 
Can anybody provide some of the best resources for developing my knowledge of scalping more?

Thank you T2W.

Yes, spend 8 hours a day ( your eyes will get sore) screen time on one instrument only and only one time frame (not bigger than 5m, 30 seconds is my favourite), do not trade, just watch the dance for about a month.

Make sure you have knowledge of basic TA (John Murphy will do).

Regarding Psychology Mark Douglass will help.

Then to go a step further I suggest Al brooks and Bob Volman.

Do not expect somebody to hand it to you, you need to do the dirty work.

Trading is an art form, is like making love, I can tell you what to do but if you do not immerse yourself in it, express yourself, bringing in it part of you, your passion, you will not have fun. No fun, no profits.

Hope it helps.
 
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I agree - ZB - $2 per r/t retail commission, $31.25 a tick.

That's the sort of market where you have a fighting chance IMO. Commissions won't eat you alive, neither will the spread. You could scale up to 100s of contracts with no worries at all.

Have to have the patience of a saint though.

Still, I'm open minded to methods that scalp in and out of less liquid markets, it is just very alien to me.

I have become intrigued by your proposition of scalping ZB.

But since you mention the patience of a saint being necessary, how many opportunities do you think there are per day for a quick scalp? Not much point in watching paint dry if you only have one opportunity per day if you know what I mean.
 
I have become intrigued by your proposition of scalping ZB.

But since you mention the patience of a saint being necessary, how many opportunities do you think there are per day for a quick scalp? Not much point in watching paint dry if you only have one opportunity per day if you know what I mean.


Purgatory. Imagine sitting there waiting for the 'select scalp'? You think you understand your market and what the bigger players are up to, then things start to happen on the bid/ask. The T&S confirms your suspiscions and you can relate it back to the levels on your chart. You put the limit in, the little voice on Ninja Trader confirms that your order is filled....30 seconds later...."Stop filled". Oh well, there's always the next select scalp. What's more, the person trading like this thinks that they are actually reading the market,...how annoying is that? Like i say, pugatory!

I like my random sweet with no stress:) How do you take yours?
 
What about a market order, then? Terrible slippage/bad fill or what? I'd have thought you'd get your price every time in such a thick market... Then again, I'm a dirty FX trader who doesn't do limits, so what do I know?

And I don't mind a sweet whose main ingredient is Noradrenalin so long as it ain't random!
 
Patience is very important in scalping. Sometimes you need to wait for hours.

Our goal is to be able to profit constantly, not to get a thrill. There are others way to get a rush and less expensive. Scalping is work.

I also find it easy to understand the market in a short TF (I trade the 30 seconds).
That is were the real battle is going on in my view at any moment, and as a retailer I do not have the luxury to engage (wisely) in any side of the battle before one of the parts lets go of the rope (double pressure). That is when I take side and play my odds.

Once that concept has been absorbed with many hours of screen time, scalping will not be boring without a position, because the essence to sit aside will be considered a position of privilege to book profit.
 
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^ That's true of any t/f, though. You have to wait for the right moment to strike.

I'm pretty sure being hyperactive works for some, but you need the correct market conditions for that.

Actually, maybe we have we have to be more selective because of the kind of market we're experiencing here... maybe...

But I digress. That's a discussion for another thread. :p
 
Purgatory. Imagine sitting there waiting for the 'select scalp'? You think you understand your market and what the bigger players are up to, then things start to happen on the bid/ask. The T&S confirms your suspiscions and you can relate it back to the levels on your chart. You put the limit in, the little voice on Ninja Trader confirms that your order is filled....30 seconds later...."Stop filled". Oh well, there's always the next select scalp. What's more, the person trading like this thinks that they are actually reading the market,...how annoying is that? Like i say, pugatory!

I like my random sweet with no stress:) How do you take yours?

It very much depends what you are looking for.

For instance, if you are at the low of the day, you see that nobody wants to sell into it (with market orders), you see buyers lifting the offer and you see price moving up, then you are seeing real buying pressure. At that point, it is not unreasonable to expect you to get to the other side of the range.

Context is still important as is the general behaviour of your chosen market. It is not enough to simply see a 'setup' and get in. For instance, taking a long into the high of the day is a very risky thing to do.

When real buying pressure appears - and take this double for a market like the ES - the large scalpers will not step in front of it.

You need more than one reason to get into any trade in my opinion. If you are looking at the order book, then that is one of the reasons. On the treasuries people look for specific signs that a large player is accumulating a position and they look for signs of spreading activity.

The reason that TT has a volume profile on it's DOM is because people that understand auction theory have an expectation of certain things happening at high/low volume area.

So - you have a few things going on.

1 - signs on the DOM that a move is imminent/someone is spreading/someone is building a position
2 - where you are sitting in the days range
3 - where you are sitting in terms of volume traded at price

In terms of T&S, I'm not sure if treasuries traders use it much because TT shows traded volumes on their DOM.
 
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Yes, I think there is a big misconception about trading and setups in general. Traders rely very much on set ups to initiate a position. But in my humble view, set ups will not give a true reality of the market condition but the overall chart will. The pressure is either up, down or neutral. If it is pushing prices more one way than the other, without much resistance in sight, a trader simply sit tight until he spots a tradable setup that offers him a good entry to participate. The actual shape of the set up is quite irrelevant.

And I like to add that you can be active in the market without having a position.
 
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I agree - ZB - $2 per r/t retail commission, $31.25 a tick.

That's the sort of market where you have a fighting chance IMO. Commissions won't eat you alive, neither will the spread. You could scale up to 100s of contracts with no worries at all.

Have to have the patience of a saint though.

Still, I'm open minded to methods that scalp in and out of less liquid markets, it is just very alien to me.

Yea, I used to scalp FGBS, not as good as $2/$31.25, but EUR2.4/EUR10 also made catching even 1-2 points worth it.

But Euro, being the world's #1 game nowadays I still like more. :D
 
And I don't mind a sweet whose main ingredient is Noradrenalin so long as it ain't random!

Unless its an absolute no brainer (even then volatility could still take you out)
every trade outcome is far from 100% certain - so there is always an element
of randomness in play...

Sure, you can refine entries and so on, control risk etc.
Its only the exit which decides the trade outcome though.
Randomness is always present in any form of trading, or poker for that matter.
Everyone has their own way of dealing with it.
Some limit trade duration (comms, slippage effects increase)
Some extend trade duration (stops widen due to volatility and strike rate lowers)

The only real way of removing randomness completely is either
arbitrage (HFT's have that pretty much nailed these days) or insider dealing (share a room with Madoff).

Sorry to go off topic :)
 
What about a market order, then? Terrible slippage/bad fill or what? I'd have thought you'd get your price every time in such a thick market... Then again, I'm a dirty FX trader who doesn't do limits, so what do I know?

The problem with a market order is you are paying the spread. Not a particularly good idea if you are scalping in the TSY's for a tick or two, since you've got to first overcome the spread and then have the market move in your favour. The inside bid/offer is often times several thousand contracts deep aswell, so getting a good placement in the queue can make or break a trade.

I managed a few ticks today doing the following in GBL/GBM: GBM was in a very tight range of three ticks and GBL was range bound (5-6 ticks). I waited for the market to go offered on the top side of the range in GBM, while GBL was trading in the middle of it's range or towards the bottom. If and only if I saw the offer drop to <200 hundred contracts (it was normally 1000-2500) I got in the queue. If I got hit on my offer I bid out a tick lower. On the other side of the range I hit into the bid if it was <200 and GBL was in the middle of the range or towards the top. The key was that I was getting a good spot in the queue, the trade would not have worked if I placed a market order. It was a pretty safe trade....won't make you rich but a couple bucks is a couple bucks.
 
Purgatory. Imagine sitting there waiting for the 'select scalp'? You think you understand your market and what the bigger players are up to, then things start to happen on the bid/ask. The T&S confirms your suspiscions and you can relate it back to the levels on your chart. You put the limit in, the little voice on Ninja Trader confirms that your order is filled....30 seconds later...."Stop filled". Oh well, there's always the next select scalp. What's more, the person trading like this thinks that they are actually reading the market,...how annoying is that? Like i say, pugatory!

I like my random sweet with no stress:) How do you take yours?

That's a pretty myopic view of scalping. It doesn't really work that way....the whole point of watching every trade on the tape go by is so that when you finally pull the trigger, you take the lowest risk possible and it usually works. And frankly by reading the tape and watching the bids and offers you are reading the market...The market is NOTHING MORE then bids, offers and prints.

How else do you suppose to know what's going on? How many fibonacci's and MACD's do you see in this picture?

cbot_floor3b.jpg
 
The problem with a market order is you are paying the spread. Not a particularly good idea if you are scalping in the TSY's for a tick or two, since you've got to first overcome the spread and then have the market move in your favour. The inside bid/offer is often times several thousand contracts deep aswell, so getting a good placement in the queue can make or break a trade.

I managed a few ticks today doing the following in GBL/GBM: GBM was in a very tight range of three ticks and GBL was range bound (5-6 ticks). I waited for the market to go offered on the top side of the range in GBM, while GBL was trading in the middle of it's range or towards the bottom. If and only if I saw the offer drop to <200 hundred contracts (it was normally 1000-2500) I got in the queue. If I got hit on my offer I bid out a tick lower. On the other side of the range I hit into the bid if it was <200 and GBL was in the middle of the range or towards the top. The key was that I was getting a good spot in the queue, the trade would not have worked if I placed a market order. It was a pretty safe trade....won't make you rich but a couple bucks is a couple bucks.

:clap:

Is it not still forcing you to take the spread?

If you wait till you are down to 200 to join the bid, you need 200+ contracts to get a fill.

Doesn't this virtually guarantee it ticks against you, at least momentarily? Or do you expect others to join behind you to prop it up?

Serious question.
 
S&P futures pit looks a bit different though:
cbot2.jpg

CBOE pit:
cboe1.jpg


How long will open outcry last.
Even Chicago is showing signs of heading in the direction I
highlighted for equities.

Serious question, would you still scalp the emini for a tick or two in that environment
with retail comms and consumer line?
I'd think the obvious solution would just be widening the stop and minimum target?
Or would you carry on as normal?
 
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