Rise of UKIP

pboyles said:
Damned sick people, using up all our health service resources. Before you know it the NHS won't have any money left for gender reassignment operations or giving people with low self esteem breast enlargements.
Click to expand...

It's not fair! :D
 
Watching the movie The Long Kiss Goodnight (1996) - IMDb

And there is an poignant scene where mummy tells the lil girl who hurt her hand learning to ice skate;

Life is pain. Get used to it.

I guess sooner or later we will have to pay heed to those words of advice.


Anyhow - would like to add, I quite like UKIP too but find them a little misguided with their European policies. They have some good ideas.

Public do not see them as racist but perceive the need to be more selected on who can enter the UK. It would only make logical sense for people who do dislike foreigners to also vote for them and would not begrudge that democratic vote. Moderate intelligent debate should help holding off the more extreme BNP progress.

Developments in UK politics is good if we have more parties. Policies can be set on desirability and winning over the electorate and MP votes rather than be based on party lines with ideologies that have obviously failed us in the past. The fear of hung parliaments leading to stall of policies and bickering has not materialised. I like the green party too. They do good work in Brighton.

We need change.

As the TUs were culled we need someone who can cull the bleeding parasitical managers on stupid wages.

I doubt it will happen though. More likely to see more layers of management with the private public partnerships proposed as some freaking fantastic idea by our stupendous elected leaders???

We are well and truly stuffed!
 
Atilla said:
I think that is a very simple sentence with very little substance.



If I was UNISON leader - I would call out a general strike;

1. with the objective of firing 75% of management layer

2. pegging nurses wage increases and numbers to management numbers according to some decent ratio bigger than 1:2. Ofcourse we used to have these kinds of pegging but it was deemed to restrict working practices. Now we have too many chiefs and very few indians. Funny how sh1t runs upwards defying reason or common sense.

What does this information tell you for goodness sake?
Many of the highest paid individuals were based at hospitals which have been at the centre of patient care scandals or are in serious financial difficulties.

The highest-paid executive earned £340,000 — almost 16 times more than ward nurses, who earn as little as £21,388-a-year. Eleven high earners have been paid more than £250,000 each. The true figures are likely to be far higher as dozens of hospital trusts failed to respond.


British Management Disease as well as bonus culture of rewarding failure is still very much with us.*

What does calling people out on strike have to do with anything?:rolleyes:

Decisions about restructuring major organisations come from govt.
What we don't have right now in this country is any leadership that is not influenced or stymied by outside authorities. (like the dictats from Europe)
The solution is pretty clear. Sweep away all those who's aim is to hinder, and allow British leadership to get cracking on dealing with all the problems.

We also need to allocate a limit on how much health service any one person can consume during their life time.

What a stupid statement:rolleyes:

So, your born with a genetic diesese and need a lifetime of care and treatment....when exactly is the cut off point, age 5,17,31, what?

A better idea would be to put those, who's illnesses are self inflicted, like smokers, drinkers, and the obese right to the back of the queue.
How about that for a radical policy ! Would save the NHS fortunes on those three groups alone.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The current system of allocating resources is extremely complex with each tier of management or administration generating its own costs. - This sentence is such tosh - I doubt it can even pass as a sample for a urine test?


Yes UKIP do need to say a lot more - along with Labour and Conservatives.

Problem clearly lies with leadership - election as to how they get there and our education system run with targets like the Politburo...


Darren Cattell, the trust’s interim finance director, was paid £340,000 last year — almost £1,475-a-day — as the trust headed towards financial meltdown. He left in May, four months before a team of consultants were sent in to investigate the trust’s £20 million deficit. Last week the trust went into administration and on Monday it will begin the bidding process for services to be taken over by other NHS trusts or the private sector.

Hail the private sectore !
Click to expand...

Perhaps you might take a look at their policies and report back the positives instead of continually running everything down. Just a thought.
 
Atilla said:
Watching the movie The Long Kiss Goodnight (1996) - IMDb

And there is an poignant scene where mummy tells the lil girl who hurt her hand learning to ice skate;

Life is pain. Get used to it.

I guess sooner or later we will have to pay heed to those words of advice.


Anyhow - would like to add, I quite like UKIP too but find them a little misguided with their European policies. They have some good ideas.

Public do not see them as racist but perceive the need to be more selected on who can enter the UK. It would only make logical sense for people who do dislike foreigners to also vote for them and would not begrudge that democratic vote. Moderate intelligent debate should help holding off the more extreme BNP progress.

Developments in UK politics is good if we have more parties. Policies can be set on desirability and winning over the electorate and MP votes rather than be based on party lines with ideologies that have obviously failed us in the past. The fear of hung parliaments leading to stall of policies and bickering has not materialised. I like the green party too. They do good work in Brighton.

We need change.

As the TUs were culled we need someone who can cull the bleeding parasitical managers on stupid wages.

I doubt it will happen though. More likely to see more layers of management with the private public partnerships proposed as some freaking fantastic idea by our stupendous elected leaders???

We are well and truly stuffed!
Click to expand...

At last, some sense.
We are not well and truly stuffed if enough people make the effort and get involved.

The time we are stuffed, as you put it, is when the general malaise sets in and the politicians can get away with it!
 
counter_violent said:
At last, some sense.
We are not well and truly stuffed if enough people make the effort and get involved.

The time we are stuffed, as you put it, is when the general malaise sets in and the politicians can get away with it!
Click to expand...


We also need to allocate a limit on how much health service any one person can consume during their life time.

What a stupid statement

So, your born with a genetic diesese and need a lifetime of care and treatment....when exactly is the cut off point, age 5,17,31, what?

A better idea would be to put those, who's illnesses are self inflicted, like smokers, drinkers, and the obese right to the back of the queue.
How about that for a radical policy ! Would save the NHS fortunes on those three groups alone.



You being funny again? :mad:

I have news for you! EVERYBODY needs a lifetime of care!


You need to take the bleeding decision making process out of life and filling management positions with people playing GOD!

If one has kids, one looks after them. Don't off-load genes on rest of society if they turn out bad. That's what families are for right. Instill and give responsibility back to individuals.

I don't get you. On one level you preach free market and on another you start bleeping taking care of invalids. Spend 80% of budget looking after 20% of vegetables.

I'm glad £75K cap has been put on elderly care.
 
Atilla said:
We also need to allocate a limit on how much health service any one person can consume during their life time.

What a stupid statement

So, your born with a genetic diesese and need a lifetime of care and treatment....when exactly is the cut off point, age 5,17,31, what?

A better idea would be to put those, who's illnesses are self inflicted, like smokers, drinkers, and the obese right to the back of the queue.
How about that for a radical policy ! Would save the NHS fortunes on those three groups alone.



You being funny again? :mad:

I have news for you! EVERYBODY needs a lifetime of care!


You need to take the bleeding decision making process out of life and filling management positions with people playing GOD!

If one has kids, one looks after them. Don't off-load genes on rest of society if they turn out bad. That's what families are for right. Instill and give responsibility back to individuals.

I don't get you. On one level you preach free market and on another you start bleeping taking care of invalids. Spend 80% of budget looking after 20% of vegetables.

I'm glad £75K cap has been put on elderly care.
Click to expand...

Well as usual I expect we are talking at cross purposes...little wonder mind as your'e all over the place.

I quite agree that we don't need all these managers. So if that's true of the NHS then it's also true of the Civil Service, Tax Office, Local Govt and Quango's etc.

It's not by accident that progress is never made to reform the system when EVERYBODY has a vested interest because they are on the payroll. This is why someone has to stick their head above the parapet and say enough is enough. In this case, it's Farage and UKIP.

I actually believe that they will become an unstoppable force, even if not directly elected, they will make enough noise and attract enough support that scares the crap out of the Two main parties. They in turn will have no option but to change or run the very real risk of being eliminated.

This is the quiet revolution....just as I predicted.
People are waking up, it just takes some of them longer than others, but they get there in the end.
 
Last edited:
Liquid validity said:
NHS admin costs compared to other countries:
http://fullfact.org/sites/fullfact....ECD_nhs_management_spending.JPG?itok=TbO7Zw7y
Factcheck: Did NHS spending on managers rise by 450% under Labour? | Full Fact

NHS cost breakdown - basic and outsourced:
Annex B: Reference costs key figures page 18
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/152045/dh_123501.pdf.pdf

NHS spending breakdown based on ailment:
Table 3 page 11
http://www.nhshistory.net/parlymoney.pdf
Click to expand...


That first chart showing relative costs to other countries makes point - calculation assumes average ad-in pay costs of £50K for managers.

Also 250K patients is a small % so big error is possible due to sample size.

Interesting stat that mental disorders accounts for 12% of costs. Didn't know that. :eek:

Expenditure has also grown in real terms per GDP so something has definitely got to be done with NHS. I guess this must be because we are living longer and better looked after than ever before.

Other areas of spend/conditions @ 26% needs a breakdown too as surely it can't be dealt with as petty cash or sundries??? Wonder what's in there?
 
Atilla said:
That first chart showing relative costs to other countries makes point - calculation assumes average ad-in pay costs of £50K for managers.

Also 250K patients is a small % so big error is possible due to sample size.
Click to expand...

That's why I included the source link below that image,
so you could follow it and verify the figures those stats are based on yourself.
Here they are:

Workforce data - Health & Social Care Information Centre

Earnings data - Health & Social Care Information Centre
 
counter_violent said:
Well as usual I expect we are talking at cross purposes...little wonder mind as your'e all over the place.

I quite agree that we don't need all these managers. So if that's true of the NHS then it's also true of the Civil Service, Tax Office, Local Govt and Quango's etc.

It's not by accident that progress is never made to reform the system when EVERYBODY has a vested interest because they are on the payroll. This is why someone has to stick their head above the parapet and say enough is enough. In this case, it's Farage and UKIP.

I actually believe that they will become an unstoppable force, even if not directly elected, they will make enough noise and attract enough support that scares the crap out of the Two main parties. They in turn will have no option but to change or run the very real risk of being eliminated.

This is the quiet revolution....just as I predicted.
People are waking up, it just takes some of them longer than others, but they get there in the end.
Click to expand...

If the UK does that , then it runs the risk of an unemployment rate equal to Spain's. It is hurting like hell and Rajoy shows no sign of relenting. Rubalcaba (socialist) wants a cap on unemployment as of now. We do not have the equivalent of UKIP--perhaps it will come. There is no doubt that those in the public sector have had a great life at the taxpayers' expense, until now.

If it was not so tragic, it would be interesting to see what happens.

27% unemployed, now.
 
Splitlink said:
If the UK does that , then it runs the risk of an unemployment rate equal to Spain's. It is hurting like hell and Rajoy shows no sign of relenting. Rubalcaba (socialist) wants a cap on unemployment as of now. We do not have the equivalent of UKIP--perhaps it will come. There is no doubt that those in the public sector have had a great life at the taxpayers' expense, until now.

If it was not so tragic, it would be interesting to see what happens.

27% unemployed, now.
Click to expand...

Hi Split,

Yes this is the crux of the problem, an over bloated, inefficient public sector (in all it's guises) which is completely out of line with the wealth producing private sector, who's taxes are supposed to pay for it all. The sums just don't add up.
Mortgaging the future is NOT the answer to the problem. Everyone knows that the sums don't add up but they continue on in denial.
The public (turkeys) not wanting to vote for christmas. The politicians (father christmas) not telling anyone the extent of the problem, in a misguided attempt to hang on to power.

The cancer which is big govt needs radical surgery...nothing else will do.
 
Trader333 said:
There is a view,(which is not mine and that wont be popular but still a view), that privatising the NHS would get rid of most of these consultants and other layers of ineffective management very quickly indeed and it is because there is no financial accountability that the NHS has all these to start with.
Click to expand...

Well - it worked so well with the railways & look how much cheaper gas & electricity is now.

I say go for it... :whistling
 
Splitlink said:
If the UK does that , then it runs the risk of an unemployment rate equal to Spain's. It is hurting like hell and Rajoy shows no sign of relenting. Rubalcaba (socialist) wants a cap on unemployment as of now. We do not have the equivalent of UKIP--perhaps it will come. There is no doubt that those in the public sector have had a great life at the taxpayers' expense, until now.

If it was not so tragic, it would be interesting to see what happens.

27% unemployed, now.
Click to expand...

The stuff revolutions are made of. What level of unemployment before people take to the streets and, in a fit of despair and anger, overthrow govt ?
 
neil said:
The stuff revolutions are made of. What level of unemployment before people take to the streets and, in a fit of despair and anger, overthrow govt ?
Click to expand...

How will over throwing government provide jobs?

Trick is to take it from the people who 'think' they've earnt indecent proportions of wealth, some even screwing up big time and being rewarded for it!

System is bent. ;)
 
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counter_violent said:
Well well well, look what we have here :LOL:

BBC News - Lord Lawson calls for UK to exit EU

5 things people get wrong about Ukip | Rob Ford | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
Click to expand...

Lawson had a nasty experience when UK was in the "snake", in 1992. He and John Major defended the the GBP to our cost (and George Soros' gain).

Whatever my views of whether we should leave, or not, I do not believe that Lawson is the person to advise the UK. He went to Barclays, afterwards, I believe, and I am sure that his own financial position is ok, I wonder if he is with UKIP, these days?
 
Splitlink said:
Lawson had a nasty experience when UK was in the "snake", in 1992. He and John Major defended the the GBP to our cost (and George Soros' gain).

Whatever my views of whether we should leave, or not, I do not believe that Lawson is the person to advise the UK. He went to Barclays, afterwards, I believe, and I am sure that his own financial position is ok, I wonder if he is with UKIP, these days?
Click to expand...

Yes very true. In fact he tried to maintain the £ parity to DM within the EMS by varying interest rates. Sort of a botch job. However, without the support of the EMS and other European banks it was a hard job maintaining an unrealistic 2.95 DM parity to 3%. He resigned due the Mrs T using him as second fiddle whilst listening to some US Harvard Prof of Econ playing experimentary monetary economics with the UK economy. Other people seem to have a totally twisted different view on this fall out and be interested to hear them again.

£7bn paid to Mr Soros by courtesy of Emperess Mrs T. and Norman Lamont.


I like Lawson though and he is someone I'd sit up and listen to... :smart:
 
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