Prop Shop in Sydney?

[Tobi99]

Hello everyone, I am a new member to this forum. I found the forum when I was doing research for my career change.

I want to be a Trader now as I really like the challenge of the risk and reward . I work in Financial Planning for 2 years now after graduated from Uni. I also trade CFD part time after/before work.

Can traders here give me some guidance please?
I want to apply a position as a trader in Propex, Triba, Optiver or Liquid Capital.
I think Propex is a Prop Shop that let traders trade the firm's capital.
Triba, Optiver and Liquid Capital are more like a Market Makers. Can someone please let me know if I am correct or not? And which firm is the best place to start my career and stay for long term?

I am also open to other suggestions, I mentioned the firms above only because I can found them on the Internet. I guess they are all very good and hard to compare without actually meeting them. Thanks very much!

 

[chenc10]

Hey Tobi99

Have you considered IMC Pacific? they're the biggest Prop Trading Firm in Australia. They're an excellent place to start a career in trading. They give you alot of responsibilities right off the bat with an excellent training program.

IMC trade in alot of different markets and employ all types of trading, its definitely my pick out of the trading firms in Sydney.

From what I've heard Tibra is a very young firm, it hasn't got a formal training program and has fired 8 out of the last 10 trainees they hired. As for Optiver, they are very similar to IMC. As for Liquid Capital, they don't let you start trading for at least 12 months unlike the 3 month wait at IMC and optiver. It's a much more mature environment at liquid capital whilst IMC and Optiver have very young teams.

 

[joffre]

hi tobi99

i m currently trading with propex I started out as a graduate trainee with them about 18 month ago, its a fantastic place to work especially if u wanna be a speculator. We have traders here who use to work for optiver and other market making firms. What we do and what market makers do are very different. I know optiver and imc are both 100% delta hedged so you are not allow to speculator.

All depends on wat u wanna do I guess, u might also have a look into transmarket, I think their the biggest prop shop in aus, they do mostly bonds.

 

[Tobi99]

Thanks for the post! I also heard that the Market Makers will more interested in hiring young people. I am very close to 30 years old, I guess I will be too old for them.
And from what I see from Optiver website that they will only hire people without experience. I don't know if they will be happy with my trading history as I may have already developed some bad habits that they don't want to see in their traders.

Hi Chenc10, Are you working for IMC Pacific?

 

[Tobi99]

Hi Joffre, good to hear real trader in the prop shop replying here. How's your working life in Propex like? Is it a pure trading job without office politic? Would you recommend people to start the career in Propex? Is it easy to get the training/job offer in Propex? I want to learn more and to build a very good foundation in trading, so I would like to start as a trainee in Prop shop. Thanks!

 

[mmone]

hey joffre

i would also be interested to hear more about what you have to say about propex..ie earning potential, splits, risk limits, costs, training..what is their edge, what makes them superior, what are you basing your trade decisions on etc

cheers

 

[mmone]

I think Propex is a Prop Shop that let traders trade the firm's capital.
Triba, Optiver and Liquid Capital are more like a Market Makers. Can someone please let me know if I am correct or not? And which firm is the best place to start my career and stay for long term?

Tobi

All the market makers you have mentioned are all proprietary in that it is their capital that you trade with, I am not certain but I cannot imagine it is the same with Propex??

jofre may be able to enlighten us

 

[level_head]

Propex is a good shop, run by a chap who has been in Futures in Australia for years. top bloke.
Thereis another one called Fusion Derivatives as well, although I'm not sure they're taking on trainees...

not sure about the other names.

 

[gotmessner]

hi tobi99

i m currently trading with propex I started out as a graduate trainee with them about 18 month ago, its a fantastic place to work especially if u wanna be a speculator. We have traders here who use to work for optiver and other market making firms. What we do and what market makers do are very different. I know optiver and imc are both 100% delta hedged so you are not allow to speculator.

All depends on wat u wanna do I guess, u might also have a look into transmarket, I think their the biggest prop shop in aus, they do mostly bonds.

I'd really like to know more about Propex!

Average age of the traders there?
Do alot of traders focus on on non Aust/asian timezone/markets?
Rentention rate for trainees?
Anyone doing really large size?
Do they accept self-funded traders?

 

[gotmessner]

Propex is a good shop, run by a chap who has been in Futures in Australia for years. top bloke.
Thereis another one called Fusion Derivatives as well, although I'm not sure they're taking on trainees...

not sure about the other names.

Do you have anymore information about Fusion Deriviatives? I can't find a website.

 

[roohif]

Jeez Chenc, and I thought I was biased! I'm a co-founder of Tibra, what's your hidden agenda?

I'm pretty sure IMC Pacific is actually the third biggest in Australia behind Tibra and Optiver. IMC were decimated back in 2006 when their top traders left to join us. I'll name names if you can name the 8 out of 10 people we've supposedly fired on our last intake. Blatantly false information. And where did you get the idea that we don't have a training program? Do you think we just sit people in front of a screen on day 1 and let them trade on our shareholder/trader capital?

Tibra is coming up to only its second birthday, and to be in the position we are, I think that makes us the clear pick of the trading firms on Sydney.

Hey Tobi99

Have you considered IMC Pacific? they're the biggest Prop Trading Firm in Australia. They're an excellent place to start a career in trading. They give you alot of responsibilities right off the bat with an excellent training program.

IMC trade in alot of different markets and employ all types of trading, its definitely my pick out of the trading firms in Sydney.

From what I've heard Tibra is a very young firm, it hasn't got a formal training program and has fired 8 out of the last 10 trainees they hired. As for Optiver, they are very similar to IMC. As for Liquid Capital, they don't let you start trading for at least 12 months unlike the 3 month wait at IMC and optiver. It's a much more mature environment at liquid capital whilst IMC and Optiver have very young teams.

 

[chenc10]

I think I wasn't very clear with the terms of my statements when I said who were the top trading firms in Sydney. From what I've seen in the Australian Options Market IMC, Optiver and Timberhill are the top 3 according to ASX market data, in total value traded and number of trades they certainly do more than any other trading firms in Australia.

I would certainly recommend graduates to check out all trading firms in sydney and see which is best suited for them. But in the current market I'd have to say Optiver and IMC are my tops picks, basically because they are very well established in many markets around the world and trade a variety of different markets. I believe for any graduate looking for a career in trading these two firms offer greater opportunities to learn how to trade different products in various markets.

I've attached some stats of the Australian Options Market for everyone who is keen to see who the major competitors are and how they stack against each other.

Hope it wasn't too biased with this post, I definitely have no hidden agenda and I actually work for the exchange itself.

cheers

 

[roohif]

Okay I've calmed down a little

I don't think I was that clear either - I was referring more to staff numbers and overall market share around the Asia Pacific region. So yes, in terms of market share on the ASX, IMC is ahead.

I suppose we could debate till the cows come home about which company is best to work for. Having worked previously for Optiver and now Tibra the differences are pretty clear in my mind. I've also had some pretty frank conversations with our ex-IMC traders and from all accounts they have had similar experiences to me.

Tibra are also "very well established in many markets around the world and trade a variety of different markets"

As an aside, good to know that you work for the exchange, I might ask you to talk to David S. (Mgr of Derivs) and urge him to really listen to the market makers perspective or the ASX options market might just die out!

 

[50cent]

hi tobi99

i m currently trading with propex I started out as a graduate trainee with them about 18 month ago, its a fantastic place to work especially if u wanna be a speculator. We have traders here who use to work for optiver and other market making firms. What we do and what market makers do are very different. I know optiver and imc are both 100% delta hedged so you are not allow to speculator.

All depends on wat u wanna do I guess, u might also have a look into transmarket, I think their the biggest prop shop in aus, they do mostly bonds.

joffre
how is the recruitment process at propex? do u have to undergo numerical and logical tests like ones at Optiver et.c?

 

[grant_3103]

The recruitment process at Propex consists of an application and with that you usually have to attach a 100-200 word explanation of your interest in markets and a possible example of your own trading.

The next round is the testing (which so happens is occuring tonight, so you are probably just too late for this round of recruitment). It is not on the same level of difficultly as the market makers (but that is because they are looking for different traits compared to that of an Optiver, etc).

Then it is followed by an intial interview. This is with the trainer and risk manager. In the final step, the owner of the company also sits in on the interview. If you have a strong and relevant background, then you still might have a chance this round if you sent through your app ASAP

 

[Tobi99]

We have mentioned Propex and Fusion here. From my understanding, they don't pay a base salary and what you earn is from the split of the (unlimited) profit you made.

Other Prop firms (or say Market Makers) e.g. Tibra, Optiver, Liquid Capital...etc do pay a excellent base salary plus bonus. And I believe that MM also has prop trading desks to do the same thing as Propex and Fusion. So, if I say MM pay a high base salary to attract talents to do the same tasks as traders in Propex or Fusion, am I correct? But then who will work for Propex or Fusion? Are they only be able to hire people can't get into IB or MM or has failed after work in IB or MM?

 

[grant_3103]

that is true about the pay at Propex (I am not sure about Fusion). There are essentially 2 reasons why you would want to be in a place such as Propex:

1. If you are good and/or get some big trades you can stand to earn much more than you would otherwise compared to an IB or MM

2. At an IB and to a lesser extent MM it will take you some time (depends on the institution) to get prop limits or to get on the prop book. Also take Merril Lynch and Citi for example just closed their equity prop books in Sydney, so if you were on that desk.....bye bye.

But don't get me wrong, working in a prop shop such as Propex is difficult and the sad fact is that you are unlikely to succeed (those are just the stats). But those who have succeded are rewarding with a flexible work schedule (i.e. you turn up when you want to. so if you make $200k in a month you can then take a 2mth holiday, or you can work nights or only 3 days/wk, etc) and the ability to have a wide choice of products. Ultimately however, it is not for everyone and requires a big commitment.

As for trying to say traders in those firms are rejects is a bit unfair. In London there are many very successful traders from prop shops and one was named in traders monthly top 30 traders under 30 last year.

 

[Tobi99]

I agree with you that you can have the flexibility in work schedule and the potential to earn is unlimited if you work with Propex. But that is also if you are already succeed.

As for trainee, you get paid a lot more while training in MM. Is it better to start with MM as a trainee and then few years later when you beocme an experience trader, you have the option to move to Propex/Fusion or stay with MM?

Are the training program in Propex and MM different? So if your goal is to trade in a prop desk, you would better trained and mentored with Propex?
Are most traders in MM doing market making and only few are doing Prop trading? So, you would have fewer chance if you want to be in the Prop trading desks in MM?

I think we are lack of information for people who want to have a career in trading and work for a firm in Australia. Only people have had exposed to both side of firms be able to answer. If people can know more before they apply for a job, they won't just looking for a high base salary or the reputation of an IB. Of course a good base salary in MM seems attractive, but I believe that Propex do have some advantage too.

 

[jasper36]

hi, is there a fee for the training and is it only based in sydney

 

[grant_3103]

RE: Tobi99, you make some very valid comments and people do take that path (i.e. work for a MM oe IB and then move to a prop shop or go out and trade their own $$$). Just remember that the MM's especially look for people of a certain skill set and if you don't match it very closely you are not likely to get in and that those skills they are looking for are not necessarily required to be a great trader (I know people personally who have been very successful and wouldn't even get looked at sideways from a MM).

The big differences between a place like Propex and a MM are;

1. At a MM you get a salary and therefore do not have to produce every month/quarter to pay yourself.

2. At a MM you probably get a little more structured support

3. The trading styles you are encouraged to employ are vastly different. In places like Propex you are encouraged to trade over a short-term horizon and not to take many directional trades until you build up your account.

4. MM's cannot provide the freedom that somewhere like Propex can provide. In a MM it is likely that you will be restricted to trading either Aussie equities or maybe Asian equities. Whereas at Propex you would be able to trade many different products (they mainly focus only on futures, so it has to be a future) and many different exchanges.

At the end of the day each has it pro's and con's and it really depends on you as an individual on which path is the best for you.

As for Jasper, there is no training fee and yes it is only based in Sydney