Professional programmers - the good, the bad and the ugly........

[JTrader]

Ok

we have so many chart applications with different programming languages. Metastock, tradestation, metatrader, pro-realtime, ninjatrader etc. etc.

Traders cannot be expected to be expert coders, and therefore you may need to hire a programmer from time to time to code a custom strategy or indicator idea for you.

Commercial/professional trading programmers are a dozen to the dime. I suspect that the really good ones, are much more scarce.

Some programmers are good, some programmers are not so good. Some programmers are expensive, some are cheap to hire.
Some will do as they say they will in the timeframe they say it will take, others will make loads of misktakes, waste your time and take much longer than they said they would to get the job done .

So for both good & bad experiences, lets draw up a list of commercial preogrammers, and describe whether they did what they said they would do, in the timeframe they said they'd do it in...........

Without wishing to bad mouth another mans means of making an income, if a programmer says they will complete -
eg. An MT4 EA strategy in 2-3 working days. But they take 18 working days to do so, you as the customer have been hugely misled and inconvenienced, and therefore why shouldn't the wider trading community have some means of being made aware of this poor service.

If they did a good job, then equally potential customers will be glad to hear who is a capable programmer & who isn't.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

Small point : the defination of "good" software is pretty elusive.

For example . . .

it may do exactly what you want BUT be a real b*gger to even slightly enhance.

it may go like sh*t off a shovel but the code be totally incomprehensible

it may do exactly what you want, be really quick, be easy to change BUT the interface may look like a badgers behind

etc etc etc

 

[Trader333]

.......But they take 18 working days to do so, you as the customer have been hugely misled and inconvenienced,

Not necessarily in my view. A programmer will estimate the time taken to do the coding that is required but often it can be far more complex than was first thought. It all depends on the circumstances and what is required.

Also let's face it the biggest offender in this area is Microsoft who have a deliberate policy of launching code that is not up to the job. They then rely on users complaining as a means to debug it and then release an updated version (SP1, SP2 etc) which is what should have been released to start with. I am still being advised not to consider Vista by many MCP as they have had many problems with it. When SP1 is released I may consider moving to it but until then I wont.


Paul
​

 

[JTrader]

Well my programmer said it would take him 2-3 working days to completely code my simple MT4 EA.

It is now 18 working days & counting . Each revision of the EA he has sent me has solved one problem, and many revisions have created a new problem! I have had to waste hours in testing for mistakes. And with each new revision, i have had to go through this testing proceedure again!

Hopefully it is now complete, and doing exactly as i instructed over 1 month ago.

When i know for sure it is completely working properly i will post his website details. He did only charge 10 euros per hour/$84 in total, but he has not delivered satisfactorily, and his incompetence has wasted both of our time! .

 

[Hoggums]

Ok

we have so many chart applications with different programming languages. Metastock, tradestation, metatrader, pro-realtime, ninjatrader etc. etc.

Traders cannot be expected to be expert coders, and therefore you may need to hire a programmer from time to time to code a custom strategy or indicator idea for you.

Commercial/professional trading programmers are a dozen to the dime. I suspect that the really good ones, are much more scarce.

Some programmers are good, some programmers are not so good. Some programmers are expensive, some are cheap to hire.
Some will do as they say they will in the timeframe they say it will take, others will make loads of misktakes, waste your time and take much longer than they said they would to get the job done .

So for both good & bad experiences, lets draw up a list of commercial preogrammers, and describe whether they did what they said they would do, in the timeframe they said they'd do it in...........

Without wishing to bad mouth another mans means of making an income, if a programmer says they will complete -
eg. An MT4 EA strategy in 2-3 working days. But they take 18 working days to do so, you as the customer have been hugely misled and inconvenienced, and therefore why shouldn't the wider trading community have some means of being made aware of this poor service.

If they did a good job, then equally potential customers will be glad to hear who is a capable programmer & who isn't.

You have neglected to mention the traders themselves who can be the cause of the problem. e.g. Inadequate or incomplete specifications, changing requirements, unrealistic expectations etc.

Mostly these problems come about as a result of poor communication between both parties.

AND For 10EUR an hour you are not going to get a good programmer. You are getting what you pay for in this instance.

 

[dcraig1]

Well my programmer said it would take him 2-3 working days to completely code my simple MT4 EA.

It is now 18 working days & counting . Each revision of the EA he has sent me has solved one problem, and many revisions have created a new problem! I have had to waste hours in testing for mistakes. And with each new revision, i have had to go through this testing proceedure again!

Hopefully it is now complete, and doing exactly as i instructed over 1 month ago.

When i know for sure it is completely working properly i will post his website details. He did only charge 10 euros per hour/$84 in total, but he has not delivered satisfactorily, and his incompetence has wasted both of our time! .

Just about says it all really. If a decent developer can get 50 quid an hour contracting in London why would they possibly want to take on this sort of thing ?

When I was contracting in London, not in my wildest dreams would I contemplate doing anything like this.

If you are paying somebody $100 for a programming job, you should be doing it youself. What happens when said developer (understandably) moves on to greener pastures and you need to have bugs fixed or make changes ?

Seriously $100 covers the cost of opening up the doc (if there is any).

Software costs.

 

[JTrader]

You have neglected to mention the traders themselves who can be the cause of the problem. e.g. Inadequate or incomplete specifications, changing requirements, unrealistic expectations etc.

Yes poor instructions from the customer, changing of ideas, poor communication etc. may be a contributor to delays. But not in my case. My instructions for my VERY SIMPLE EA, were crystal clear. If i'd still been using TS8.1 I'd have been able to doe it myself it was that simple. MT4/MQL4 is a whole new ball game though.....

Mostly these problems come about as a result of poor communication between both parties.

AND For 10EUR an hour you are not going to get a good programmer. You are getting what you pay for in this instance.

Not necessarily. i.e. 10 euros per hour is worth a lot more in some countries than it is in the UK! - eg. Ukraine

...

 

[JTrader]

Just about says it all really. If a decent developer can get 50 quid an hour contracting in London why would they possibly want to take on this sort of thing ?

When I was contracting in London, not in my wildest dreams would I contemplate doing anything like this.

If you are paying somebody $100 for a programming job, you should be doing it youself. What happens when said developer (understandably) moves on to greener pastures and you need to have bugs fixed or make changes ?

Seriously $100 covers the cost of opening up the doc (if there is any).

Software costs.

1. most custom programmers work from home.
2. MT4 is a FREE charting program, they do not pay to use it.
3. There are hundreds of them, just look at forexfactory for all those members who eg. "code for pips". Therefore who's gonna pay big sums for coding. I've yet to here of any trading strategy programmers charging £50 per hour

 

[trendie]

1. most custom programmers work from home.
2. MT4 is a FREE charting program, they do not pay to use it.
3. There are hundreds of them, just look at forexfactory for all those members who eg. "code for pips". Therefore who's gonna pay big sums for coding. I've yet to here of any trading strategy programmers charging £50 per hour

1: this causes no end of communication problems. its amazing what snippets of info you can glean during a long conversation, and the valuable insights from a wide-ranging discussion.
2: doesnt alter the nature of the task involved. you are paying their TIME and SKILL, irrespective of the cost of the platform.
3: you maybe confusing amateur/backroom programmers coding for beer-money with "commercial" programmers/developers running a Limited Company as their primary source of income. as per dcraig1, a decent (freelance) developer charges around the £50-£100 ph depending on skills. (check jobserve for skills such as C++, .NET, or Oracle)

EDIT: I think Hoggums has crystalised the essences with his post.
A coder is a coder. Unless he has specific skills in trading, he could be coding blind.
You would be better off getting a trader who can program rather than a programmer who can trade.
(its about understanding the underlying concept, and a trader who programs would result in fewer miscommunications, and perhaps he could critique your request more easily, because he can understand what you are trying to achieve.)

 

[rols]

1: this causes no end of communication problems. its amazing what snippets of info you can glean during a long conversation, and the valuable insights from a wide-ranging discussion.
2: doesnt alter the nature of the task involved. you are paying their TIME and SKILL, irrespective of the cost of the platform.
3: you maybe confusing amateur/backroom programmers coding for beer-money with "commercial" programmers/developers running a Limited Company as their primary source of income. as per dcraig1, a decent (freelance) developer charges around the £50-£100 ph depending on skills. (check jobserve for skills such as C++, .NET, or Oracle)

Why not follow the example of our esteemed member WASP?
He did it himself, and suceeded.

 

[JTrader]

Thank guys

we're getting a bit topic here now............

The point is, if you want to find a programmer who specialises in Metatrader4 MQL4 language, you're not going to look in the yellow pages. You will search on the Internet for them.

I doubt you will find any that are anything but one man bands working from home. Like a trader, why would they need an office if they can work from home? - it would be a needless expense.

Any trading platform programmer should/is likely to know that platform and the basics of order management etc. inside out, irrespective of whether they trade or not.

....So, when you do a google search form metatrader programmers, you will be returned a list of programmers websites.
The point of this thread is to try & seperate the good, the bad and the ugly!
i.e. who did a good job/what they said they would do, in the timeframe they said they would, and who didn't and was way off the mark, as was so in my case.....simple as.

 

[dcraig1]

1. most custom programmers work from home.
2. MT4 is a FREE charting program, they do not pay to use it.
3. There are hundreds of them, just look at forexfactory for all those members who eg. "code for pips". Therefore who's gonna pay big sums for coding. I've yet to here of any trading strategy programmers charging £50 per hour

There might be hundreds of them, but are any of them any good ? Is anybody making real money out of this game on forexfactory - the coders or the customers ? I think you are deluding yourself if you think things are this easy.

You should learn and do it yourself.

Developing software is an iterative process with continuing refinements as the problem space becomes better understood. You will benefit putting in the work.

And yes, real programmers do get 50 quid an hour and sometimes quite a bit more than that.

 

[JTrader]

There might be hundreds of them, but are any of them any good ? Is anybody making real money out of this game on forexfactory - the coders or the customers ? I think you are deluding yourself if you think things are this easy.

You should learn and do it yourself.

Developing software is an iterative process with continuing refinements as the problem space becomes better understood. You will benefit putting in the work.

And yes, real programmers do get 50 quid an hour and sometimes quite a bit more than that.

HI dcraig

here is how it works.

Me as the trader develop a profitable strategy. In my case the strategy was very simple, and would have been very easy to code. I know this because the strategy is simple, but effective. Thus, a more complex strategy with more rules/criteria etc. would be more difficult to code - yes?

The MQL4 programmer then writes my strategy into code, and i have a functional automatable strategy. It's that simple.
This is what trading platform programmers do! whether it be tradestation, metatrader or whatever.
With tradestation, they will put you in direct contact with such programmers, on the phone if you call tradestation and press button no. X on your keypad. Dozens of freelance easy language specialists ready to code away. Although i think they may all charge a standard rate for doing this, and they may well all be working from TS HQ.

I have worked with TS easy language B4, and recognise that learning to code yourself, is worthwhile.
I stopped using TS, as MT4 serves my needs and is free.
MT4 is not as well supported as TS.
I did/do not consider it a time/cost effective process for me to learn how to code in MT4, i don't need to, because i am a trader and not a programmer.
Therefore i pay an expert in MQL4 to do this for me. Makes sense, no?
This is the problem, with 100's of supposed MQL4 "experts" out there, the customer is spolied for choice. Finding a good one, is obviously a bit of a lottery.
Therefore the point of this thread is to recommend/not recommend certain custom programming website services, based on their performance in doing your job for you. SIMPLE!

 

[JTrader]

Not necessarily in my view. A programmer will estimate the time taken to do the coding that is required but often it can be far more complex than was first thought. It all depends on the circumstances and what is required.​

I think you're right to some extent.The programmer may give you a time/cost estimate based on your demands/instructions and any misunderstandings/queries will/should be resolved B4 payment is finalised.

It is important to ensure that the programmer understands exactly what needs to be done, before payment is made, and that all queries about the instructions have been resolved. I did this.

There should be some flexibility on both sides, as understandably, internal or external problems can arise and can cause delays.
But c'mon man! if an estimated 2-3 working days becomes 18 working days, you surely have to conclude that the programmer is -

1) Incompetent
2) Taking the p**s
3) Both 1 & 2.
:arrowd:

The luck of the draw aspect is that you have no way of knowing whether or not this programmer is competent or not, as you're not exactly likely to find a review centre for MQL4 programmers now are you.
Therefore an honest thread/report/review like this can/should help traders in selecting a suitably competent trading platform custom programmer for any strategy/indicator coding that they need doing. The good programmers may pick up extra business as a result, and traders like us will be able to avoid the not so good programmers, hence saving us traders a lot of time in the process.

 

[counter_violent]

The trick JT is to form a very small select group of traders who all have different skill sets.....if One stops performing for whatever reason...fk em off...and replace with a hand picked new member...you can always tell who is not performing in a small group....

Of course, it does mean sharing and a clear understanding of what it is that everyone is working on.

CV

 

[JTrader]

The trick JT is to form a very small select group of traders who all have different skill sets.....if One stops performing for whatever reason...fk em off...and replace with a hand picked new member...you can always tell who is not performing in a small group....

Of course, it does mean sharing and a clear understanding of what it is that everyone is working on.

CV

Yes CV, i agree that it interesting.

But the point is, for some traders, programming code is likely to resemble a menu in a Chinese Retaurant in downtown Beijing .

A trader is a trader, a programmer is a programmer. I am a trader who has done basic EL programming. A programmer may do some trading, but primarily earns a living through his programming. A programmer may trade for himself the best strategies/idea clients have brought to him.

There are many knowledgeable traders/programmers on TSW for example, but that does not mean that they are very good/successful traders.

A traders focus is on trading, and not on programming. If they can do both then great, but wasting days/months learning a charting applications programming language can be a waste of time IMO - when you may find a reason to change charting platform suppliers at the drop of a hat.........

I want to learn as much about code, and the charting platform as i need to. I do not need to pass a programmer exam in that platforms code/language in order to be a good trader.

 

[new_trader]

Thank guys

we're getting a bit topic here now............

The point is, if you want to find a programmer who specialises in Metatrader4 MQL4 language, you're not going to look in the yellow pages. You will search on the Internet for them.

I doubt you will find any that are anything but one man bands working from home. Like a trader, why would they need an office if they can work from home? - it would be a needless expense.

Any trading platform programmer should/is likely to know that platform and the basics of order management etc. inside out, irrespective of whether they trade or not.

....So, when you do a google search form metatrader programmers, you will be returned a list of programmers websites.
The point of this thread is to try & seperate the good, the bad and the ugly!
i.e. who did a good job/what they said they would do, in the timeframe they said they would, and who didn't and was way off the mark, as was so in my case.....simple as.

Try:

http://www.rentacoder.com/

Although I didn't have much luck with a C# project and ended up coding it myself, learning from scratch. A few weekends is all it took.

I did a search and there are 2 coders listed as Metatrader4. There are ratings and comments so you can get an idea of their performance history. Funds are put into escrow until you are satisfied, just in case you get incomplete or unsatisfactory work.

 

[JTrader]

Try:

http://www.rentacoder.com/

Although I didn't have much luck with a C# project and ended up coding it myself, learning from scratch. A few weekends is all it took.

I did a search and there are 2 coders listed as Metatrader4. There are ratings and comments so you can get an idea of their performance history. Funds are put into escrow until you are satisfied, just in case you get incomplete or unsatisfactory work.

Thanks NT

thats the type of stuff i think is useful to this thread!

 

[JTrader]

I am happy to say that my EA is NOW complete and FULLY working correctly!

It just a shame it took 15 working days longer than anticipated .

I'll probably post this Ukranian programmers website details later, but do feel a bit bad about doing so . But at the end of the day, its my time that he has wasted

 

[rols]

Take a look at Forexfactory or forex-tsd.com to see how quickly auto systems come and go.

I have spent over 12K on the services of a very good programmer and learnt a few things in the process.

1. Learn to trade successfully before any thoughts of implementing an ATS otherwise there will be continuous tweaking and layering.

2. Backtesting is only useful in the implementation of the system ie checking the ATS can handle all eventualities. As far as basing future success on previous performance, it's a myth for a myriad of reasons.

3. If you can really define your strategy in terms of mechanical rules then there may be a chance of short term profit. A big 'if' though.

4. Don't blame the programmer for your own shortcomings. Programmers like things to be defined. Treating them like traders is a mistake.

5. Understand the complexity of the task. There's a lot more to it than just buying and selling. For example what if the order is only partially filled, or the stop gets missed, or there is a power cut, or the data feed gets corrupted, or the ATS gets stuck in a loop and keeps adding to positions? All these things I have experienced and worse.

6. You are competing against companies which employ the brightest and the best and have millions of dollars at their disposal. Do you honestly think you can knock up a better and more successful auto-strategy on tradestation and spend the day cruising around your yacht while the money rolls in?