Private Members Boards?

[ardhill]

So,

Is it just me or do the private members boards appear to be a bit of a strange idea to others too?

OK, so I understand that you might want to restrict those people who post to a particular board. But to completely block all view as well?

Lets say that I was interested in Price and volume ( I am not picking on DBP here, 'cause I am actually interested), when I go to the board, I get nothing, nout, zilch, Zip, Zero - no threads at all. If I didn't know better, I might think that no one posted on that board at all.

It appearers that if I wanted to view the posts I need to contact the moderator and ask for admittance - knock, knock anyone home, please sir can I have a peek? Then I can view the threads and then... I can decide if I wanted to post there at any time. Hey, maybe I would need separate permission to actually post once I am in?

The internet has tried to make life easier for people to get information without having to ask anyone anything - that's one of the reasons why internet shopping has done so well, I can look at a thingy without wondering if anyone was about to ask me if they can help me, or say please don't touch that, or try and force me to buy or whatever. But with the private forums, I would need to ask permission just to look!

Is this not rather weird to anyone else, or am I just under too much stress these days and getting too little sleep, and my mind is starting to wander?

Is T2W going to become a range of closed off little secluded private forums?

Or maybe something happened on the boards when I wasn't around and this is the result?

 

[roguetrader]

I can understand itup to a point, ie you want to talk about something and don't want a lot ofpeople running their own discussions and arguements through it. Though I have to admit why do it on a public discussion board, yahoo groups hosts private forums and I believe the author has a group there. Stilleach to his own, live and let live and all that. I suspect it may catch on andyess you could see a lotmore whoknows,who cares Apathy rulz, who cares

 

[Roberto]

when I go to the board, I get nothing, nout, zilch, Zip, Zero - no threads at all

Not a sausage? That's a funny sort of "editorial control", isn't it?

I had a different problem there. I found that a couple of my posts were just removed by the moderator for no reason I could understand at all. I posted my objection too, but not long after that the whole thread was removed!

I understand there've been other members with grievances of various kinds, too. You may know that the moderator of that particular forum started it up here not long after being banned from EliteTrader, so maybe there were over there, as well? A great shame, too, as I believe he has something interesting to offer, under only slightly different circumstances.

 

[Bigbusiness]

I have nothing against private forums. With so many members of T2W, there are lots of times when a thread is ruined by a few of them. Yahoo groups might be a solution but it is not as easy to post charts and T2W is far superior.

I joined one of the private forums just by asking the forum creator, what is so difficult about that? I know some people have not been given access but as the forum is private, we all know that previous critics of the author are unlikely to gain access. This does mean the forum is censored but anyone who has a problem can air their views outside of the private forums.

I wish that some of the more controversial members of T2W had started their own private forums as it would have been better than the farce we had when one person's thread was highly moderated to remove any critical comment.

 

[Sharky]

> Moved to T2W Feedback.

We give members the option of having whatever type of board they want. As Bigbusiness pointed out, if you're interested in a board you simply need to contact the owner of the board to join.

I can understand concerns, but on balance the benefits to give members a choice would seem to outweigh any percievable cons. Put simply, it's better to have a private area for discussion than no discussion at all.

 

[DaveJB]

It really boils (and boils is often the right word, sadly) down to a question of the characters of those involved - my only significant reservation about private boards is that I think they ought to be subject to some sort of oversight... the ability to silence opponents is a double edged sword, it is really useful if the opponents involved are dipsticks who'd heckle at a Salvation Army band (and, to be honest, I think that's 75% of the reason for edits - the heckling is by people who need to get out more whilst being discouraged from handling sharp objects) but you need to guard against somebody whipping up hordes of disciples... trading being a brilliant area for this, as the dafter you are the more convincing a guru you become. Moderating the moderator to ensure they're not building a cult seems sensible to me... I also think that management should review what's cut (okay, sample it, don't read every post) and if there's no obvious transgression then alarm bells should ring.... genuine opposition should be tolerated on all boards (not, however, if endlessly repeated). This isn't a free speech issue to me - it's a 'protect the gullible from shysters' issue, and private boards do offer the opportunity to run amuck.

Most private boards, I'd imagine, are the result of sheer exasperation at the silly, disruptive antics of a minority (or a moronity, if you prefer - swap the odd vowel and it fits SO much more aptly) and people should be free to discuss matters of interest without somebody making silly noises to one side. I think, on balance, it's running slightly better in reality than I feared - if anyone is sending £500 a month in to a private board mod then now would be a good time to mention it!

On the negative side (ish) - I think it's imperative that Private boards be easily recognised as such - I click 'view latest threads' and have no idea, currently, if I'm on one or not - that should change, and personally I think it's a darn sight more important for me to know a self appointed mod is editing/deleting my posts that that I can see the cartoon flag appropriate to people registering from Fraggle Rock! (No names, no pack drill - as the saying goes <g>)

 

[Roberto]

It really boils (and boils is often the right word, sadly) down to a question of the characters of those involved

I completely agree.

my only significant reservation about private boards is that I think they ought to be subject to some sort of oversight

I think I probably agree with that as well; but it's a hell of a big reservation to have!

I also think that management should review what's cut (okay, sample it, don't read every post) and if there's no obvious transgression then alarm bells should ring....

I'm not sure that sampling it is necessarily adequate. As someone who's been the victim of this scenario (see my post above) I think that great vigilance is needed. Otherwise there's nothing to stop people who have caused problems at other sites sufficient to get banned from them from just coming along here and damaging this site too.

I asked Sharky about it and he told me that any member is entitled to this facility of a private forum and that nothing can be done about it. And that really _did_ make me hear alarm bells.

genuine opposition should be tolerated on all boards (not, however, if endlessly repeated).

I couldn't agree more. Opposition _must_ be tolerated. Ridicule, insults and derision must _not_. If these principles are not fundamental to an internet community, that community will not survive.

There's "ostensible authority" involved here: whatever is going on inside a private forum, the site "looks responsible" for it and people will rightly complain to Sharky whether he has chosen to exercise any real control or not.

I think, on balance, it's running slightly better in reality than I feared

Let's hope so, anyway.

I think it's imperative that Private boards be easily recognised as such - I click 'view latest threads' and have no idea, currently, if I'm on one or not - that should change

Yes, it certainly should!

 

[dbphoenix]

As someone who's been the victim of this scenario (see my post above) I think that great vigilance is needed. Otherwise there's nothing to stop people who have caused problems at other sites sufficient to get banned from them from just coming along here and damaging this site too.

Victim? C'mon, Roberto. Victim? You made a grand total of three posts, two of which were off topic and deleted, as you were told they would be if you had read the introduction to the forum, and the third consisted of congratulations to me for a clever thread title.

Please excuse my butting in here with utter trivia (and of course feel free to delete this "contribution" if it's unwelcome), but it's a great shame that the recent T2W award categories didn't include one for "Best Thread Title" because this thread would surely have been the hands-down winner.

Note the "feel free to delete this" comment.

That's all there is to it. If you can't move on, at least be accurate.

 

[ardhill]

Hi

Concerning "am I am member of a private board?" that is simple (I think). As I am not a member of either of the boards. There are only two aren't there, I mean there are none that are Really private so that you don't even know that they exist if you aren't a member are there?

Anyway, as I am not a member of either of them I get this image when I click on the link to view the threads on the boards. So, it should be easy for you to tell.

I completely agree with the thoughts about restricting who is allowed to post, I have no problem with this can can see why is it desired by some. My real difficulty is that no one is even able to view the threads on a public forum. I could be just being fussy, but that my 2c

I hadn't even thought of the problems raised by Roberto and Dave.

 

[Roberto]

Note the "feel free to delete this" comment.

I noted it, but you didn't, apparently. That was the only post of mine that DIDN'T get deleted! (And I intended it quite genuinely: I thought it was an excellent title and would make a brilliant book title too.)

If you really want to discuss it, DB, then tell us what your motivation was in requesting moderation facilities here so soon after they finally banned you from the Elite Trader site?

Actually on second thoughts, don't even bother. I can't be bothered with any more arguing here. My purpose in posting (see above) was to endorse wholeheartedly Dave's views and to try to warn people that if nothing's done to "supervise" people's private forums, the site may be damaged as a result. That's all.

 

[dbphoenix]

I noted it, but you didn't, apparently. That was the only post of mine that DIDN'T get deleted! (And I intended it quite genuinely: I thought it was an excellent title and would make a brilliant book title too.)

If you really want to discuss it, DB, then tell us what your motivation was in requesting moderation facilities here so soon after they finally banned you from the Elite Trader site?

Actually on second thoughts, don't even bother. I can't be bothered with any more arguing here. My purpose in posting (see above) was to endorse wholeheartedly Dave's views and to try to warn people that if nothing's done to "supervise" people's private forums, the site may be damaged as a result. That's all.

Yes, the only one of three, two of which, as I said, were off topic and subject to deletion, clearly stated, as I said, in the introductory post to the forum.

Why did I initiate the PV Forum? Because I and others wanted to go to work, something which was next to impossible to do "elsewhere". And T2W is far superior to other websites of its type with regard to posting and editing images, uploading various types of files, the Search function, and the generally good manners of its members.

If you want to spend your time proclaiming your distaste for me, that's your privilege. And it is your privilege to complain to Sharky. Often. He has always expressed a sincere and eager willingness to listen.

 

[DaveJB]

Hi Ardhill,
not quite - if you aren't allowed on a private board then you'll see this, but if you lead a blameless life (<g>) then you can often be granted access to a privately mod'd board without any sign that this is so... I've apologised for going off topic when (politely) kicked in the nuts for so doing, as it's only when the relevant mod has edited my post(s) that I've discovered I'm on such a board. Personally I think the majority of private boards are fine, if not all, if I were running one I'd be annoyed at having to keep shifting the off topic stuff, and the mods doing that to me have, so far, been perfectly okay in my opinion.

Now, had the thread surround been dark blue instead of light blue (for example), or had my Union Flag (which ought to be the Saltire, I've been here longer than a good many native born Scots, dammit) been a big letter "P" or something, then I wouldn't have made a pirrock of myself in the first place... well, no more than usual anyway... because I'd have known to go check the thread info before chipping in.

Am I the only person here using the 'View Latest Threads' menu item? What's the ******* point of a shortcut, if when you take it you inadvertently 'cross' other members? Use these shortcuts and you DO NOT SEE THE INTRO TEXT... sorry, but I've told some of the private mods this, and they still bleat about people ignoring it. People aren't ignoring it, they never see it... please could we have 'Private' flags to avoid this, it really is totally uneccessary aggro all round ... with such a flag people would know to check what 'special rules' were in force, and could then either obey them or simply stay out of the thread. I know this is a bit of a broken record on my part, I've asked for this monthly, but if every page I look at can be headed with a thread title I am totally at a loss to understand why the word 'Private' could not be appended to such threads, which would at least ensure members knew if a thread were open or not.

It's very easy to get upset about freedom etc in this sort of thing, free speech is one of those things we all think we ought to have, whilst having reservations about the next guy... it's overrated, as long as it's obvious where we stand then I have no complaints about private threads - it's a facility T2W provide for like minded types to meet, chat, and discuss ideas without being interrupted... there's far more silly disruption on threads than ultra fascist right wing secret trading societies (okay, got a bit carried away there) so please don't scream too much - it's easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and end up with something that never offends anyone but isn't worth having.

 

[ducati998]

Four things seemed to stand out on the P&V forum, when it was public domain.

1....The vast majority of posters were new to the concept of P&V. They may well have been trading alternative styles for some time, or complete novices, but new to P&V

2....DBP, from numerous references to some book or compendium, placed himself as an experienced, successful practitioner, educating, or encouraging those new to P&V

3....DBP, held moderation powers, censorship, to edit, remove etc posts that were deemed inappropriate for whatever reason, with ultimate control, and answerable to no-one.

4.....DBP, did not like to be challenged, contradicted, or even addressed as an equal, in short he had been ever so slightly corrupted by his ownership.

What evidence?

When asked, quite politely, to define "PRICE".....a reasonable request of an expert, running their own little forum, ........Nothing.........zilch.

Outcome?........Post deleted, off topic.........blah,blah blah.
Forum removed to Private Members Forum, ever more control, no dissention, no thought, no alternate views, in sum nothing other than DBP version of P&V.

True experts welcome dissention, alternate views, new ideas, discussion, argument, as this will always produce in the aggregate progression and refinement.

cheers d998

 

[dbphoenix]

When asked, quite politely, to define "PRICE".....a reasonable request of an expert, running their own little forum, ........Nothing.........zilch.

Outcome?........Post deleted, off topic.........blah,blah blah.
Forum removed to Private Members Forum, ever more control, no dissention, no thought, no alternate views, in sum nothing other than DBP version of P&V.

True experts welcome dissention, alternate views, new ideas, discussion, argument, as this will always produce in the aggregate progression and refinement.

cheers d998

"Price" was defined for you, but you didn't like the definition. That's not quite the same thing as "zilch".

As to being off topic, yes. And I do have you to thank in large part for prompting me to make the forum private. You never read any of the other threads, any of the introductions to the material, any of the various explanations -- with illustrations -- provided. Instead, you wanted to argue the value of technical analysis. Again.

But that's not the point of the PV Forum. The point of it is to develop trading plans based on price and volume, not to argue the value of technical analysis or tout software or boast about some private system that generates the creator 3X the ADR of whatever but which won't be disclosed or discussed.

No, the subject of the PVF is not what you want it to be. Why should it be? If you want to read everything I've ever written on the subject of technical analysis, join TMF and read the archives. Seven years' worth. Or there are my posts at ET. It's all there if you care to look for it. But if all you want is to argue in perpetuity, I can't help you. I have things to do.

Dave is correct with regard to "New Posts" and "Latest Threads". If the forum is privately moderated, one has no way of knowing that since he doesn't have to go in through the front door in order to post. In the old days, of course, one didn't respond to posts without considering the context, which meant reading the thread, and, usually, the FAQ for the forum or the introductory post. But that was the old days. Now one posts at will, whether it be germane or no.

There is nothing "hidden" about the PVF. Anyone who wants to join is welcome to do so. But he must first read the rules and state in writing that he has done so. So far, only one person has objected to this, and I'm sure he will find happiness along whatever path he chooses to take.

Actually, not just anyone can join. Ducati has made it quite clear that he has no interest in learning to trade by price, so there would be no point in admitting him. But anyone who is interested in the work and in doing the work is welcome to apply

 

[Roberto]

you can often be granted access to a privately mod'd board without any sign that this is so

Exactly.

Now, had the thread surround been dark blue instead of light blue (for example) ... I'd have known to go check the thread info before chipping in.

Exactly.

Am I the only person here using the 'View Latest Threads' menu item?

No.

What's the ******* point of a shortcut, if when you take it you inadvertently 'cross' other members?

What indeed?

Use these shortcuts and you DO NOT SEE THE INTRO TEXT... sorry, but I've told some of the private mods this, and they still bleat about people ignoring it. People aren't ignoring it, they never see it.

Exactly the point that DB continues to ignore, as in his posts above in which he keeps implying or stating that I "ought to have known"!

The thrust of my enquiry (to Daniel) and eventually complaint (to Sharky) related simply to the practice of having my posts removed without even being _told_ that they've been removed at all, let alone given a _reason_ (which as it happens, I would have accepted without demur).

I've been told (twice now) that the site's policy is that if anyone removes one of your posts, they tell you why. Well that may be the policy, guys, but it sure as hell ain't the practice! (And I'm not talking only about my aforementioned run-in with DB).

I know this is a bit of a broken record on my part, I've asked for this monthly, but if every page I look at can be headed with a thread title I am totally at a loss to understand why the word 'Private' could not be appended to such threads, which would at least ensure members knew if a thread were open or not.

Well, you've got a backing-group (of one) now; although to be honest given my standing around here at the moment, I might be more of a liability than an asset ... sorry about that!

 

[dbphoenix]

Exactly the point that DB continues to ignore, as in his posts above in which he keeps implying or stating that I "ought to have known"!

Only if you have any interest in the thread to which you're posting, much less the forum.

But you "can't be bothered with any more arguing here", so, as you were.

 

[DaveJB]

Okay,
as this is getting heated - I personally am not interested in a witch hunt. Having ones posts summarily deleted THEN discovering you've been on a private thread is going to annoy many people, so I have sympathy for those it has happened to.

With respect to DBP the vast majority of threads are open, and I'm not going to the thread start for every thread just so I can spot the couple that are private. If users are expected to do that then remove the quick nav options - I've been on quite a lot of boards since I started with Compuserve and CIX in 1991 or so and I have yet to find it a requirement to go back and read from post 1 on any board so far. Given some sort of visual cue I will, however, as a matter of courtesy to the the moderator of a private thread, make it a habit to do so.

In support of DBP, however - I have more sympathy for those trying to run a discussion 'on topic' who get needless rubbish posted on their threads, as I think that's far more annoying than the private mod editing. Why should somebody running a thread on topic 'A' have to digress endlessly because somebody comes along who disagrees fundamentally with what's being discussed? There's no 'right to have your rubbish answered' if you clutter up a thread that others are trying to keep to the point on. Those wishing to pontificate can open their own threads, or post on the general ones - as we are doing here.

My SOLE objection is as stated - I believe the private threads should be visibly marked, to avoid accidentally stumbling into a private thread with off topic posts, and to ensure that those deliberately posting rubbish can't hide behind some sort of free speech issue. Provided SOME oversight is maintained to ensure that the thread isn't used to con the gullible that's it for me, job done.

I'm not having a pop at you at all Roberto, by the way, you are far from who I think of when conjuring up images of disruptive elements - but I have a great deal of sympathy for DBP in general... I got moved from his thread myself, (beats chest, cries mea culpa) and have no complaints about it... on the whole I prefer that to wading through endless posts querying why I use charts at all, why I should use astrology, why I should buy my meds online... ad nauseam!

 

[Roberto]

I got moved from his thread myself, (beats chest, cries mea culpa) and have no complaints about it.

Well, I must admit I wouldn't have posted there in the first place if I'd realised that troublemakers banned by other internet forums could just assume moderation privileges here "as of right" without anyone even being warned about it. So that was my mistake, in my case, also.

IMHO Sharky has made a mistake, too, but obviously it's his business and not mine.

I recognise that you and I are coming at this from totally different viewpoints. I'm not in any way trying to elicit your support for my "cause"; I'm simply registering mine for yours.

 

[Roberto]

DBP, did not like to be challenged, contradicted, or even addressed as an equal, in short he had been ever so slightly corrupted by his ownership. What evidence? When asked, quite politely, to define "PRICE".....a reasonable request of an expert, running their own little forum, ........Nothing.........zilch. Outcome?........Post deleted, off topic.........blah,blah blah.
Forum removed to Private Members Forum, ever more control, no dissention, no thought, no alternate views, in sum nothing other than DBP version of P&V. True experts welcome dissention, alternate views, new ideas, discussion, argument, as this will always produce in the aggregate progression and refinement.

Very well put, d998. Others, in other threads and in other places, have expressed far more eloquently than I can some of the underlying reasons for this. The question is: is this site going to do something about it? (I fear probably not ... and I'm afraid we are all the worse off for that).

 

[dbphoenix]

Very well put, d998. Others, in other threads and in other places, have expressed far more eloquently than I can some of the underlying reasons for this. The question is: is this site going to do something about it? (I fear probably not ... and I'm afraid we are all the worse off for that).

Cromwell lives . . .