Practicalities and philosophy of trading from a profitable trader

It had not been verified since my broker moved my account from server 1 to server 2 at the start of the year. I'll be putting up another real money account that I trade as well as this one in a couple of months (end of August) once that has 12 months history on it.

Thanks for reply.

I notice that you average-in from time to time and have no set exit pattern.
I havent investigated fully but somehow you seem to make less pips than you lose but make more $ than you lose.

It's a very interesting stat you've created:

Average Win: 25.76 pips / £27.79
Average Loss: -64.19 pips / -£10.68

Is it because myfxbook groups together the trades when you average-in?
 
EDIT: Ok so you're compounding when positive, but not reducing when losing.

Without trading metrics you can't decide what is the optimum to risk, and without an actual person with his own utility, you can't decide how much risk the trader can handle. So what is the point of the example? Yes risking 1% will keep you in the game longer than 2% all things being equal. So would risking 0.25% or risking 0%

What are you trying to say, as I've obviously missed the point of your post?

Pretty much your point above - risking less keeps you in the game longer which results in greater compounded gains over time.

Thanks for reply.

I notice that you average-in from time to time and have no set exit pattern.
I havent investigated fully but somehow you seem to make less pips than you lose but make more $ than you lose.

It's a very interesting stat you've created:

Average Win: 25.76 pips / £27.79
Average Loss: -64.19 pips / -£10.68

Is it because myfxbook groups together the trades when you average-in?

My trading has evolved over time - you'll notice at the start I used to daytrade and try to nickel and dime small pip value trades with large leverage (which caused me an excessive drawdown). There are some extremely bad trades that I took on advice of other who I thought to be excellent traders who told me were "no brainer" trades that could not possibly lose and I held onto those far longer than I should. I tend to trade larger lot sizes where there are fundamental and technical and news factors that support the trade. I use far smaller sizes when trading purely technical patterns (since I have the lowest faith in those) but I'll come onto that later. I'm not quite sure how myfxbook works out the averages.
 
Pretty much your point above - risking less keeps you in the game longer which results in greater compounded gains over time.



My trading has evolved over time - you'll notice at the start I used to daytrade and try to nickel and dime small pip value trades with large leverage (which caused me an excessive drawdown). There are some extremely bad trades that I took on advice of other who I thought to be excellent traders who told me were "no brainer" trades that could not possibly lose and I held onto those far longer than I should. I tend to trade larger lot sizes where there are fundamental and technical and news factors that support the trade. I use far smaller sizes when trading purely technical patterns (since I have the lowest faith in those) but I'll come onto that later. I'm not quite sure how myfxbook works out the averages.

Your recent eurusd trade. You made 3 short entries. Carrying it through NFP numbers to then exit at a profit. The first entry went quite offside. Would you say that the key to your trading is averaging?
 
trading over NFP increases risk
holding over the weekend increases risk
is it necessary/ prudent?
 
trading over NFP increases risk
holding over the weekend increases risk
is it necessary/ prudent?

Not meaning to sidetrack the thread. But I think you are just stating a personal bias. Or do you have proof?
 
a 100-200 pip gap is proof, we've all seen them

It cuts both ways. Sure we have seen that but how often does it happens? The point is should your trading methodology be adjusted to take care of the exception or should it be based on the norm?
The 1 % (or thereabouts) position size risk factor in my view will minimize the damage from such type of events.
 
a 100-200 pip gap is proof, we've all seen them

Yes, there are but it doesnt mean it is more "risky" because it is a 50/50 bet. Unless you have some statistical proof that it goes against you on a greater than 50/50 basis?

Out of interest. I see plenty of gaps during the day. How do you protect against them?
 
Yes, there are but it doesnt mean it is more "risky" because it is a 50/50 bet. Unless you have some statistical proof that it goes against you on a greater than 50/50 basis?

Out of interest. I see plenty of gaps during the day. How do you protect against them?

The poster is right about not trading during NFP and weekends. I will give you one clue. As soon as you enter the market you become a participant. Market charts reflects participants activity. Your activity affects the charts. It's the market makers who will profit.unless you are a market maker, or can mitigate your risk in your favour, most of you will not become successful at trading.
 
The poster is right about not trading during NFP and weekends. I will give you one clue. As soon as you enter the market you become a participant. Market charts reflects participants activity. Your activity affects the charts. It's the market makers who will profit.unless you are a market maker, or can mitigate your risk in your favour, most of you will not become successful at trading.

What complete and utter drivel.
 
Your recent eurusd trade. You made 3 short entries. Carrying it through NFP numbers to then exit at a profit. The first entry went quite offside. Would you say that the key to your trading is averaging?

I was trading an idea that was not invalidated and had further valid entries. I suppose that you can look upon it as averaging down (I have nothing against it unless you are just averaging down for the sake of it - you need to have a reason and a plan, not do it at random). For instance someone if one was fundamentally bullish on oil because there was a war brewing in the Middle East, but there was a dip because USD strengthened, your initial position may be in the negative. If there was then a low oil inventories result then you could add to your position. As long as you have a hard stop and a good reason (not just adding for the sake of it) I think it is fine.

trading over NFP increases risk
holding over the weekend increases risk
is it necessary/ prudent?

The problem with swing trading and longer term trading is: where do you stop? Interest rate decisions? FOMC decisions? Ben Bernarkes speeches? Eurogroup meetings? Merkels announcements? GDP releases? I think if you are using highly leveraged scalp trading then there may be a point, but if you trade longer term you can't avoid them. There are high impact news releases on and off the calendar all the time. Note there are also people who say you should not trade Mondays, Fridays, Summers, Nov - Jan as well - which leaves precious little time to trade or to leave a trade going.

I'll post my least entertaining entry here yet (pretty boring even by my standards but needs to be said to add to what I wrote yesterday).

Getting significant statistical results


An analysis is also useful for working out whether systems are entirely due to chance or have an edge on the current market but there are limitations, especially if you have small dataset. One of the most applicable uses for statistics is to find whether a trading system is successful solely by chance, or whether there is an edge. If you log your trade results you will have a record of your wins and your losses. Traditional statistics would have you input all your results and see of they beat the 'null hypothesis' of the trades being exclusively down to chance. Our examples of the coin flippers would given enough time have a 50/50 ratio of wins vs losses and would not be able to achieve their plans of 200+ million in a few flips. A probability assessment would state that the statistics support the outlook that the results are exclusively down to chance. Many traders will have good statistics and good win rates for periods of time because their systems are by chance have fit the market. They are dip buyers in a rallying market, sell the rally types in a bear market, or are grid traders on a ranging market (I have to make the point that there are many different types of rallying market, different types of bear market, and different ranging market in case someone brings up that point but I will talk about that later).


The statistics for when they are in the right market are good, but the snapshot that is taken is not indicative of the greater market - there needs to be a significant sample. Trading for 20% gain per month for 3 months tempts people into drawing out excel charts of 20% gain compounded for years (eventually hitting millions from a small account) but ultimately I have never seen this happen despite seeing many accounts have promising starts. I have seen many systems be successful over a period of months only to flatten and disappear - you can see this on zulutrade, myfxbook, fxstat and everywhere else. I only tend to look at systems that have been trading over a year to see whether their system is down to chance or actually has some edge behind it, otherwise the statistics may only be down to chance. Also it is possible to 'juke' the stats somewhat by only closing winners, and letting the losers run - after all - they are not counted in the loss rate until they are closed. Again, where do you draw the line? 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 5 years? 100 trades, 200 trades, 1000 trades? There is no fixed answer - it just depends what how significant you want your statistics to be. The strictest is to do a statistical test which has the highest power and has the strictest probability or p value. By doing numerous tests you will be able to find the limit of where your trades are valid. This is quite similar to how confidence intervals are managed in the monte carlo simulation. If anyone wants to do anymore reading on how to do these tests here is a good overview: http://www.stats.gla.ac.uk/steps/glo...s_testing.html


When you see statistics with a great monthly gain, or a win rate for a month or two, you have to be aware that the population that the statistics is drawn from is not great. The probability of results being down to chance is a lot higher the fewer results there are. Getting good statistics and plenty of results is important for finding out whether systems work. I would caution over being wowed by statistics with a short lifespan, they may seem impressive but do not come up well against a robust test.
 
What complete and utter drivel.[/QUOTE

Count how many trades you made during those times and your overall result in the last 3months, 6 months or year and then tell us . assuming you traded all those times for real.
 
Yes, there are but it doesnt mean it is more "risky" because it is a 50/50 bet. Unless you have some statistical proof that it goes against you on a greater than 50/50 basis?

Out of interest. I see plenty of gaps during the day. How do you protect against them?

You normally write a lot of sense D70, but I'm not with you here.

Risk is about the downside only. It's irrelevant whether these gaps work for you 50% of the time or even 90%.

If you take on a position and leave it so that there is a higher chance of a gap and your stop being exited further away than where you intended, you have increased your risk.
 
You normally write a lot of sense D70, but I'm not with you here.

Risk is about the downside only. It's irrelevant whether these gaps work for you 50% of the time or even 90%.

If you take on a position and leave it so that there is a higher chance of a gap and your stop being exited further away than where you intended, you have increased your risk.

Your stop isnt guaranteed if the market is open so what difference does it make?

To come at it from another angle. Assuming you are right and that there is greater risk to holding a trade while the market is closed. Given that markets are priced perfectly. That would suggest that there is a reward to me buying your position off you on a Friday night (or at the end of a day for stocks). I believe someone used to call it First Strike Plus, or something like that. Joel Renzinki proved it mathematically. Which suggests to me, you should definitely let the weak hands close off their trades and if anything, increase yours over the market closed periods.

To my knowledge, having a position on over a weekend is only risky if you have too big a position.

I get the impression no one here has traded much stock because they can be trading 30% higher in micro seconds stop or no stop.

Does any of that make better sense or logic?
 
Mostly agree, but market making is a form of prop trading, and we only have to look at the London whale to see that there are still guys taking on massive directional risk. A $6 billion loss seems like quite a hefty chunk of total P/L, and his book was apparently $157 billion, and that's just one guy.
London Whale blew up on something that was not directional. Moreover, CIO was never market-making. It was explicitly a prop-trading function of JPM, with a very screwed up mandate. Therefore, the numbers like $157bn don't make a lot of sense in that particular context, although the final $6bn loss is large (and stupid).
 
Looking at populations in trading

As mentioned, the markets are not random, some traders do not have set stop losses and take profits. Many close on an decision unrelated to strategy, or hold in hopes of getting a winner, double up on trades, alter the risk on a trade or decide to miss trades. This makes perfect paper trading not be so perfect when it comes to real life. Another vital aspect for statistical tests is epidemiology or population studies. Although it is nice to think of ourselves as a unique special individual trader that can work miracles, it is best to have a realistic view of ourselves and what can be achieved. If you want to see what a good trader is capable of, then you should take a look at a top trader and what it takes to get there. If you are able to access their trading record then you will have information on what sort of drawdown to can expect as well as knowing what returns you can get.

There is a ready source of this information on sites like myfxbook which depending on the individual trader gives you ideas of drawdown, trade size and trade selection. There are also other sites such as investegate which covers hedge funds and gives the equity growth. There are lots of traders who claim they make millions, but these sites are the only indication they do - plenty of people talk big, but cannot back up their statements. Of course, boasting that you make 25% per month sets a very large precedent for others to look up to, which is why it should not be looked upon as a competition when you have no idea how the others are running.

If you aspire to making a certain amount per month via a certain number of trades and via a certain amount of drawdown you should vie to find someone who has achieved similar statistics. A lot of traders have come and gone, and if you are chasing for a trader who has a risk/reward ratio of 1:5 and a drawdown of <5% with 30% gain a month by scalping, and you can't find someone like that then the chances are that you will not be able to do it. I am not saying that it is impossible. If you can find a significant amount of people who are able to do it for a month, then you can probably manage it for a month. If you can find one person that can do it for 3 months, then it is unlikely that you can do it for 3 months. If you cannot find one person who has been able to manage it for a year, then you are not going to be able to do it yourself, unless you consider yourself above and beyond everyone else.

There is a reason why many people are not forex millionaires, because it is a hard job with a high failure rate. If you think about a career you generally look at what a realistic salary you can achieve with 1 year, 5 years, 10 years etc. For instance, if someone was to look at becoming a lawyer, they could look at earning $20k per year initially, $80k within a few years, and $200k as they became a partner within 10 years (this is in the UK). You do not immediately assume that you will be earning like the UK top lawyer (see this article: Revealed: Britain's best paid lawyer | Mail Online). If you worked in the civil service in the UK, you would expect $30k initially, followed by incremental increases each year with about $50k after 5 years, and $80k after 10 years. You not assume to be earning the same as the Prime Minister. In trading, performance is even more highly related to success, so do not automatically assume that you will head and shoulders above everyone else - it is not realistic, not humble and can lead to arrogance, over trading, over competitiveness which I have mentioned is one of the downfalls of traders.

If you are a scalper then follow the best scalpers and see what they can achieve. If you are a long term fundamental trader then follow them and see what they can achieve. If the best scalpers are making 200% per year, the chances of you making 500% per year consistently are so impropable and divorced from the real world, that you should re-examine the way you look at the world.

When I was at school there was a envelope making/selling job at the local postal service that paid per envelope that you made/sent. The average wage for this was minimum wage ($9/hr at the time), but my fellow pupils eagerly added up the potential to make an envelope every 10 seconds (based on how fast they could do one) and thought that it was going to be an incredibly well paying job paying over $100/hr just for making envelopes incredibly quickly. Don't have unrealistic expectations - great things are theoretically possible but the wiser trader looks at things as part of a larger, more realistic scheme.
 
Your stop isnt guaranteed if the market is open so what difference does it make?

To come at it from another angle. Assuming you are right and that there is greater risk to holding a trade while the market is closed. Given that markets are priced perfectly. That would suggest that there is a reward to me buying your position off you on a Friday night (or at the end of a day for stocks). I believe someone used to call it First Strike Plus, or something like that. Joel Renzinki proved it mathematically. Which suggests to me, you should definitely let the weak hands close off their trades and if anything, increase yours over the market closed periods.

To my knowledge, having a position on over a weekend is only risky if you have too big a position.

I get the impression no one here has traded much stock because they can be trading 30% higher in micro seconds stop or no stop.

Does any of that make better sense or logic?

There may be a reward to me holding a position over the weekend, or a reward to you taking the position from me and holding it, but it's not relevant to risk. Risk is about downside, not reward.

There's no doubt that things can gap during the day.

Consider opening a trade on some instrument. Trader A can close a loser any minute, Trader B can only close it at end of each day, trader C after each year (can't do anything before the year is up). All traders wish to exit when it's moved against them X points, all other parameters such as size are equal. Which trader has a higher potential loss and why?
 
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