Name something "Permanent"

Atilla

Legendary member
19,913 3,166
Well, that's like saying if one cannot see something it means there is nothing there.....am sure you will agree with me, there is something called ignorance. Something which is not known doesn't mean it can't be known.

The other side of your argument above - by the same token creating a concepts like time and permanence doesn't mean they exist.

On the subject of water and fire, water is subject to constant change and fire cannot exist on its own as it depends on cause and conditions.

Agreed. Fire needs fuel and oxygen as water needs the right conditions to exist. However, none of these are stable and equally depend on their environments. So does/can fire really exist with any permanence?

The same principal can be applied to all other elements and thus the answer is no permanence.


Yet to our knowledge, everything appears to be temporary..... Perhaps that is because everything is temporary and nothing is permanent. Why be a salmon?

Time is like a fourth dimension where any object has a time limit for existence.....yet this time that we know of, as tick-tock time is a fabrication of our human concept. If removed, existence still has the same fate.

without concept of time or delta time the ability to measure any change is futile as one has nothing else to compare it to.

In the absence of these abstract creations by man such as; god, time and x y z etc., including state of permanence, discussion without reference to change / time / delta choose which ever concept one desires - is also futile. This is the point I was trying to make.


So why existence in the first place?

A 1000 ton rock can be in permanent existence to the naked eye from Snowdonia . However, to a martian on planet pluto it's moving.

By similar anology it is so far removed from the green martian's concept as to not even exist at all.

I don't need to know God as I know my parents and grandparents and heard about my great grand parents.

At least I think I know who they are :cheesy:

:)
 

Shakone

Senior member
2,458 665
I define the set A as follows:

A={all objects that are "lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely"}

Job done.

Every element of A is now permanent according to definition.
 

Triggerfish

Active member
229 14
Atilla said:
Perhaps that is because everything is temporary and nothing is permanent.
Yes....but why? Why is that? Surely there must be an answer for that.....? There must be an answer for everything? surely.

Atilla said:
without concept of time or delta time the ability to measure any change is futile as one has nothing else to compare it to.
Maybe we don't need to measure change! I think its more to do with the reasons behind it rather than measure or compare.

Now since we are on the issue of time, if we remove this so called time, things will operate normally without it. So whatever that is operating does not depend on time. Things will happen because it will happen but more importantly.....why? and where does it come from? What caused it? (everything has a cause.....right) Surely there is an answer for that too?

There can't be anything that is un-caused, can it?
 

Triggerfish

Active member
229 14
I define the set A as follows:

A={all objects that are "lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely"}

Job done.

Every element of A is now permanent according to definition.
Am not sure physical objects here can last or become permanent.....you need to do better than that.....do you have a name for the object/s in mind? Formulas are of no use here.
 
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Atilla

Legendary member
19,913 3,166
Yes....but why? Why is that? Surely there must be an answer for that.....? There must be an answer for everything? surely.

Why must there be an answer for everything? Your subject matter permanence only exists if you create the concept of time. You can't have it both ways. If time is removed as an arbitrary creation of man, one removes concept of change hence permanence is irrelevant.

Everything you are trying analyse and give meaning / definition to is subjective to you.


Maybe we don't need to measure change! I think its more to do with the reasons behind it rather than measure or compare.

If you don't have change you have static. A photograph. A snap shot. Reasons cease to exist.

Now since we are on the issue of time, if we remove this so called time, things will operate normally without it. If you say so... :sleep:

So whatever that is operating does not depend on time. You are taking the **** now... :sleep: Explain what is operating; how, where, when, why without depending on time. Example please? :sleep:

Things will happen because it will happen Oh yeah! Pull the other one it has bells on it. :LOL:
but more importantly.....why? and where does it come from? What caused it? (everything has a cause.....right) Surely there is an answer for that too? Are you telling or asking? :sleep:

We've now moved into thingymijigs have we :LOL:

There can't be anything that is un-caused, can it?


"Things will happen because it will happen". I like that :)
 
Last edited:

Triggerfish

Active member
229 14
Atilla said:
Why must there be an answer for everything?
What kind of answer is that? Is there nothing to "know"?.....So according to you, there is no answer / no need for an answer for why nothing is permanent!?.....aren't you even curious?

Atilla said:
Your subject matter permanence only exists if you create the concept of time. You can't have it both ways. If time is removed as an arbitrary creation of man, one removes concept of change hence permanence is irrelevant.
Permanence does not depend on the concept of time, time has nothing to do with it, permanence should be able to exist either with time or without.....as time isn't real.
That is why time is not required so it can be removed. Time is basically measuring itself. Something very subtle here which I think you have not grasped.

Atilla said:
If you don't have change you have static. A photograph. A snap shot. Reasons cease to exist.
There is no need to measure as time is meaningless. This does not mean a static photograph. The point is: say we did not invent time, back in the old days, things which exist will still decay.....without time.

Atilla said:
You are taking the **** now... Explain what is operating; how, where, when, why without depending on time. Example please?
As above.

Atilla said:
We've now moved into thingymijigs have we.
Which is?
 

ZEN archer

Experienced member
1,528 241
What kind of answer is that? Is there nothing to "know"?.....So according to you, there is no answer / no need for an answer for why nothing is permanent!?.....aren't you even curious?

At least it's not as misleading as having the wrong answer.
 
 
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