Munchie "the noob" dude's Virgin Trading journal

[munchiedude]

your first post was "if there are any improvements/clarification that needs to be had above, please do let me know as i welcome constructive input and criticism as i fully appreciate that my trading "strategy" is a bit loose but i hoping experience and feedback could improve it!"

I've been trying to help you.
fkkk knows why, maybe I took pity on you.
But you seem determined to keep your head in the sand,
so fffk you, I'll happily stay the other side of your trades taking your wasted money

how is saying its shyte and drop the rubbish constructive, rathbone?its just criticism, i may be a noob at trading but dont take me for a fool.

there are ppl here which can be constructive and then theres you. theres a line rathbone, i dont need to sit here and take point blank rudeness from you.

 

[munchiedude]

Hi Munchie,
I'm inclined to agree with r_e when it comes to Macd and sarcastics. Instead, use RSI - it's much better!


On a serious note, the anti-indicator lobby are very vociferous on these boards and, to be fair to them, many of the points they make are very valid. The problem you face is that until you reach the conclusion yourself that such indicators are - in r_e's words: "useless rubbish [mate] that will not help you in any way go on to be a better trader", you'll always have that nagging doubt that maybe there's something in them that really will be helpful to you. When you're starting out, being told not to use them is akin to telling a young boy not to play with a water pistol.

Whilst I'm being devil's advocate, I may as well point out that there are some people who use them daily and do very well with them. So, they are not completely without value. For example, in the days I traded U.S. equities, I used ATR to help me calculate my position size. To be honest, I wasn't a very good stocks trader and I didn't make any money. However, there's one thing of which I'm very certain: my use of ATR as a money management tool ensured that I traded the right size with the right stop and, without it, I would almost certainly have blown up my account. I didn't - and I'm still in the game and I have ATR to thank for that.

So, what's a new trader to do? I think you've got 2 choices. You either get them out of your system early on, or you resolve to study how the markets function without them and then add them lat a later date to see if they are of any use to you. The key thing is to not let the indicator cloud your understanding and interpretation of the market. And if you're going to make trading decisions based on indicators - you must know when they're likely to mislead you so you can ignore their signals. Ultimately, it's quite likely that you'll arrive at the same conclusion as r_e, but I stick by my assertion that you have to come to it on your own and in your own time.
Tim.

thanks timsk for your feedback. as i said initially, i welcome all CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM and that is the same as from rathbone. my gripe is that point blank insults without any basis of suggested improvement is neither wanted nor tolerated. i've been pleasant in the way ive conducted all my posts and expect a similarly civilised response.

whilst i appreciate that rathbone has some strong views regarding using or not using indicators, i should be allowed the freedom to trade my mistakes, and learn whether the macd/stox combo is shyte or not. this is my perogative and i might end up on the same conclusion as rathbone but in my own time. i dont need slamming of ideas when trying to be creative.

lets make something quite clear here:

i am a stockbroker and have been for a number of years, i am NOT a trader but am not considered a noob when it comes to market relationships and market insight. i make trading decisions for clients regularly for a long time now.

i am a poker player, i see some canny resemblances between poker and trading and i am consistent in that area playing with positive expectancy.

given both of the experiences above, i think trading is a natural next step and as such, i welcome thoughts and ideas from more experienced traders but i reiterate to rathbone once again: dont take me for a fool.

of course u are entitled to your thoughts and by the sounds of it, u feel very strongly about ur opinions, but pls remember, at no point should your opinions be imposed on me . i never insulted you nor do i intend to, so pls keep it civlised.

 

[Pazienza]

how is saying its shyte and drop the rubbish constructive, rathbone?its just criticism, i may be a noob at trading but dont take me for a fool.

there are ppl here which can be constructive and then theres you. theres a line rathbone, i dont need to sit here and take point blank rudeness from you.

Don't mind R_E Munch, he's not a t0sser (honest ), he's just focussing more on the efficacy of his medicine and less on his bedside manner.

For what it's worth, I agree with his opinions. But at the same time, you need to do your on testing. I had an indicator phase (like a lot do I guess) and I started to make progress once I ditched them. But who knows, your experience might be different.

As long as you keep serious notes that you can look back on and learn from, and keep any losses small during the experimentation phase, it's all good .

Just to be cheeky though, here's what I bet: if you are still doing this in 18 months' time, you won't be using indicators.

 

[munchiedude]

Don't mind R_E Munch, he's not a t0sser (honest ), he's just focussing more on the efficacy of his medicine and less on his bedside manner.

For what it's worth, I agree with his opinions. But at the same time, you need to do your on testing. I had an indicator phase (like a lot do I guess) and I started to make progress once I ditched them. But who knows, your experience might be different.

As long as you keep serious notes that you can look back on and learn from, and keep any losses small during the experimentation phase, it's all good .

Just to be cheeky though, here's what I bet: if you are still doing this in 18 months' time, you won't be using indicators.

lol, people are so anti indicator here, no its fine, there is no animosity, just jars me that someone can come comment on my journal, after 2 days of test trading and makes rude comments but hey, its a free world!

its not like im saying im def hung up on macd/stox, far from it, i couldnt care less if im using them or not but i got to start somewhere, right?

so what do ppl use to generate their buy/sell signals if they dont use indicators? chart patterns? price action? candlestick formations? eeny meeny miney mo?

 

[Splitlink]

how is saying its shyte and drop the rubbish constructive, rathbone?its just criticism, i may be a noob at trading but dont take me for a fool.

there are ppl here which can be constructive and then theres you. theres a line rathbone, i dont need to sit here and take point blank rudeness from you.

There are those of us who do not know how to express ourselves unless it is in a forceful manner. When they talk in a forceful manner the **** flies! I am trying to cure myself, although, I would never have put myself on the same level of sheer filth of which others are capable.

My advice to you is:

a) do not try to compete. I can't, I start shuddering and erasing before posting..

b) remember that others, not so impolite, are reading your post and that they are interested in what you have to say. The uncouth ones want you to stop posting.

 

[Pazienza]

so what do ppl use to generate their buy/sell signals if they dont use indicators? chart patterns? price action? candlestick formations? eeny meeny miney mo?

Probably.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I use a combination of levels and price action - sort of. It's really more of a case of trying to interpret the action of the market, and visually this is expressed in a way that most people would think of as price action (sorry, I know that sounds like pretentious boll0cks).

Where I started from along this road was identifying a level that looked significant - for sake of argument a big round number that was also a flip in support and resistance. I then look for a price action trigger at that area. Like I say, that isn't really what I do now, but it kind of gives you an idea.

But like I say, whatever works. I mean, there are guys in the Wizards books that use indicators.

 

[munchiedude]

Probably.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I use a combination of levels and price action - sort of. It's really more of a case of trying to interpret the action of the market, and visually this is expressed in a way that most people would think of as price action (sorry, I know that sounds like pretentious boll0cks).

Where I started from along this road was identifying a level that looked significant - for sake of argument a big round number that was also a flip in support and resistance. I then look for a price action trigger at that area. Like I say, that isn't really what I do now, but it kind of gives you an idea.

But like I say, whatever works. I mean, there are guys in the Wizards books that use indicators.

everyone's approach is different i suppose. my understanding is that once traders become experienced, price action/naked trading without indicators is easier as individuals know what they are looking at.

i also feel that interpreting price action and what the market is telling is and really getting into the minds of the mass psychology is the winning approach.

whilst i appreciate that indicators are at best unreliable and at worse totally useless, why are they so looked down on? after all, the MACD is just a visual representation of convergence/divergence of the moving average? and since MA crossovers is a viable yet simplistic approach, why would MACD not be a good place to start? (apart from the fact that it is a lagging indicator)

thoughts welcome here!

 

[munchiedude]

breakout pending order eur/usd (rising converging channel)
entry:1.4510
s/l:1.4495
t/p:1.45475
risk: 15pips
reward: 45pips

 

[munchiedude]

chart

 

[munchiedude]

sorry, reward = 37.5pips. 2:5RR

 

[Pazienza]

everyone's approach is different i suppose. my understanding is that once traders become experienced, price action/naked trading without indicators is easier as individuals know what they are looking at.

i also feel that interpreting price action and what the market is telling is and really getting into the minds of the mass psychology is the winning approach.

whilst i appreciate that indicators are at best unreliable and at worse totally useless, why are they so looked down on? after all, the MACD is just a visual representation of convergence/divergence of the moving average? and since MA crossovers is a viable yet simplistic approach, why would MACD not be a good place to start? (apart from the fact that it is a lagging indicator)

thoughts welcome here!

Why are they looked down on? I suppose everyone has their own reasons but I don't like them for one because I don't see that they add anything.

For example, MACD divergence. I have no problem with divergence, but the fact is you don't need MACD to see it. I mean you can eyeball it. Same with fib retracements (I don't use those either) - if you like to know that a move has retraced 50% or so, fine. But you can just see that.

I guess a major problem comes where people think the market is doing something because the indicator is doing something. That to me is just crazy.

The main reason that I don't like them is I think they obscure what is going on, they prevent you from focussing on what is important, which is what is really driving the market.

I suppose also that they tend to encourage the belief that there is something that has predictive power, if only you get it right, which is boll0cks.

Maybe another reason is scam vendors seem to love indicator systems. Indicators are pretty severely lagging, another reason. I don't know really, lots of things I suppose.

 

[rathcoole_exile]

if you wanna talk about not insulting people, stop referring to me as "rathbone" you rude little person

 

[munchiedude]

if you wanna talk about not insulting people, stop referring to me as "rathbone" you rude little person

omg, lol, sorry rathcoole, i totally misread your name, for some reason i have rathbone down for ya, but yea, rathcoole, i'll use your proper nickname!

 

[rathcoole_exile]

and HOW ON EARTH is calling indicators "shyte" an insult to YOU ???
I really think you are too feeble for the dog-eat-dog world of trading.
If you can't take a bit of heat, you're really not cut out for trading.

I think you should pack up now. There, how's that for constructive feedback ?

Take a look at these boys, YOU wouldn't last five minutes, you little cry-baby
http://www.babelgum.com/channels/180638/clips/5003507

 

[munchiedude]

Why are they looked down on? I suppose everyone has their own reasons but I don't like them for one because I don't see that they add anything.

For example, MACD divergence. I have no problem with divergence, but the fact is you don't need MACD to see it. I mean you can eyeball it. Same with fib retracements (I don't use those either) - if you like to know that a move has retraced 50% or so, fine. But you can just see that.

I guess a major problem comes where people think the market is doing something because the indicator is doing something. That to me is just crazy.

The main reason that I don't like them is I think they obscure what is going on, they prevent you from focussing on what is important, which is what is really driving the market.

I suppose also that they tend to encourage the belief that there is something that has predictive power, if only you get it right, which is boll0cks.

Maybe another reason is scam vendors seem to love indicator systems. Indicators are pretty severely lagging, another reason. I don't know really, lots of things I suppose.

yeah, to be fair, i have come across some information suggesting indicators are not all too reliable and they lag like hell. im neutrat wrt my favoured choice but being new to trading, i would like a few visual tools to guide me to see what is trending/ranging/getting weak/getting strong etc whilst im learning the ropes here.

i suspect that the trading strategy in 12-18 months will be very different to this basic setup as i add things and remove things.

i totally agree that indicators can distract one from looking at price action and reasons for price action but if used correctly i believe indicators can be a tool rather than a hindrance if used sparingly.

one thing i would like to know is when do you consider yourself a consistent trader? what parameters demonstrate consistency?

 

[Pazienza]

Rathbone's p) robust approach aside, that is an awesome film, well worth watching. I particularly liked the guy with all the dead animals in his house.

 

[munchiedude]

Why are they looked down on? I suppose everyone has their own reasons but I don't like them for one because I don't see that they add anything.

For example, MACD divergence. I have no problem with divergence, but the fact is you don't need MACD to see it. I mean you can eyeball it. Same with fib retracements (I don't use those either) - if you like to know that a move has retraced 50% or so, fine. But you can just see that.

I guess a major problem comes where people think the market is doing something because the indicator is doing something. That to me is just crazy.

The main reason that I don't like them is I think they obscure what is going on, they prevent you from focussing on what is important, which is what is really driving the market.

I suppose also that they tend to encourage the belief that there is something that has predictive power, if only you get it right, which is boll0cks.

Maybe another reason is scam vendors seem to love indicator systems. Indicators are pretty severely lagging, another reason. I don't know really, lots of things I suppose.

and HOW ON EARTH is calling indicators "shyte" an insult to YOU ???
I really think you are too feeble for the dog-eat-dog world of trading.
If you can't take a bit of heat, you're really not cut out for trading.

I think you should pack up now. There, how's that for constructive feedback ?

Take a look at these boys, YOU wouldn't last five minutes, you little cry-baby
http://www.babelgum.com/channels/180638/clips/5003507

pathetic.

 

[Shakone]

everyone's approach is different i suppose. my understanding is that once traders become experienced, price action/naked trading without indicators is easier as individuals know what they are looking at.

i also feel that interpreting price action and what the market is telling is and really getting into the minds of the mass psychology is the winning approach.

whilst i appreciate that indicators are at best unreliable and at worse totally useless, why are they so looked down on? after all, the MACD is just a visual representation of convergence/divergence of the moving average? and since MA crossovers is a viable yet simplistic approach, why would MACD not be a good place to start? (apart from the fact that it is a lagging indicator)

thoughts welcome here!

I hinted at one reason earlier regarding indicators, but I'll have another stab. Trading is not just about entry. Entry is important but it is one moment in time, based on some past price action. You think the probabilities are in your favour, so you enter. But current price action has more weight than past price action. So you've entered, and price is going against you. The probabilities are now not what you thought they were. Re-assessment time.

So you are using an indicator on a 10-min chart say. Price can tell you the probablitilies have changed in one minute. It could drop 50 pips in one minute. It doesn't need 10 mins, but your indicator exit strategy isn't valid until the 10 min bar closes. So do you wait for the 10-min bar to close and your indicator to tell you to get out? Realising that you're wrong slower than everyone else is going to hurt your account. Or you can say, 'well I have a stop at 20 pips' to save me when I'm wrong. Fine, but then that 20 pip stop isn't based on the indicator, so why 20? Should be a reason for everything you do.

If you're wrong you want to be able to recognise it as early as possible and get out. You can use indicators to help you, it's not bad. A bit of price action and just a moving average could make you money. But you need to have a plan of what to do after entry, and that will be more important than the entry. And I believe that is partly what Rathcoole was trying to get across.

 

[Pazienza]

yeah, to be fair, i have come across some information suggesting indicators are not all too reliable and they lag like hell. im neutrat wrt my favoured choice but being new to trading, i would like a few visual tools to guide me to see what is trending/ranging/getting weak/getting strong etc whilst im learning the ropes here.

i suspect that the trading strategy in 12-18 months will be very different to this basic setup as i add things and remove things.

i totally agree that indicators can distract one from looking at price action and reasons for price action but if used correctly i believe indicators can be a tool rather than a hindrance if used sparingly.

one thing i would like to know is when do you consider yourself a consistent trader? what parameters demonstrate consistency?

Blue part:

Just as a general point, I think using anything as a tool is fine, as long as you find it useful. The realisation that nothing works is an important one because it leads you through to the real breakthrough, which is that you are what makes your trading work, not your method.

But seeing things as "tools" is a good way of thinking about things in my opinion.

Red part:

Consistency? Who cares, frankly. You're not working for wages. One thing I would be careful about - do not expect to take money out of the market every day. We'd all like to guarantee 1% per day or whatever, but I think it rarely works like that, and the attempt to do so is dangerous.

Personally, I'd look at results over no shorter than a month (and a quarter is probably better still).

 

[rathcoole_exile]

And I believe that is partly what Rathcoole was trying to get across.

but obviously too forcibly for whiney mummy's boy here