moderator initiated post deletion and stealth editing

[Sharky]

I have to agree with Arb, we need people from all walks of life to provide a balanced view of things. Giving someone with a commercial interest a voice in discussing how the site should go forward, sits perfectly fine with me - the mods on the other hand need to be completely non-commercial and independent, because they are the ones that have additional powers and owe a duty of care. Let's not forget this is just a trading forum, as long as we create some safeguards, and use common sense to keep things fair and transparent - we should get along just fine!

 

[Paul71]

just to throw in my two penneth - but I couldn't take a side on this - and i've tried.

Plenty of my posts have been edited / deleted. I pride myself on political incorrectness and I accept a fair few will cross the line. What's more, 90% of what I post is crap, with little effort input.

Tony - you write some superb stuff and I can see why you might get offended if it's tinkered with. But the humerous fluff - why bother? Personally, I don't know why the humour can't remain, but there's plenty of other sites for gaining pleasure (and increased shoulder / arm strength to boot so why not just let it ride? (not a dig, a question)

UTB

Some people find it hard getting over themselves.

 

[0007]

Appears to have been a bit of moderator initiated post deletion and stealth editing on this thread today. As pointless as it is irritating. Please can we have our site back now? Or are you mod-guys going to unilaterally make it an image of what you consider perfection - and boring for everyone else?

I'm content to leave the Mods to adjudicate as they see fit - it's dark, dirty and dangerous work & someone has to do it. It's also unrealistic to expect that they will not upset someone. What I'd like to suggest is:

(1) "offending" posts are replaced with a short entry explaining why eg. "abusive" / "spam". [I might be tempted to remove anything contrary to my opinion but I think our Mods are more grown-up than that.] At least we can then see what is going on - transparency should be the name of the game.

(2) Slightly offending posts just have the naughty bits blanked out - there might be some pearls left.

We're in dodgy territory if anything is deleted other than for good legal / decency reasons. I believe you need to see what other people think no matter how unpalatable, unless it's offensive / abusive, in which case zero tolerance should apply.

As for Vendors / Advisors: There is a potential conflict of interest with joint holders but so long as this is declared in an obvious way I don't really see a problem. (There's a conflict of interest between shopkeepers and my wallet every time I go out but I've coped adequately for many years). If readers can't cope with that then they're certainly not ready for trading.

We could of course fire all the Mods / Advisors / Vendors and get a politician in ..............

 

[Trader333]

In my view the only issue is what Advisors may advise about. If it is about the site or guidance to various sources of information or even basics of trading I don't see any issue. The only time it would be is if they were actively promoting commercial services which does not appear to me to be the case.


Paul

 

[searchlight]

Searchlight,

The mods don't have jobs - they are volunteers. And this sort of stuff is what makes it more frustrating than it needs to be. If you add a committee, I for one will be gone. I barely know barjon but I'm sure that CV and LM would reach their respective "can't be bothered" limit.

I reached it once yesterday when MP6140 attacked Lightning MQueen for doing what he was supposed to do - personally I'm not sure how long I'll continue as this sort of rubbish wasn't why I volunteered in the first place. We get complaints about threads being ruined and try to keep them clean which takes time and repetition - the complaints are genuine but cleaning up threads is the mod equivalent of getting sent out to get drunks off the street and having them throw up on you. You try to help people keep it on track (I know the others do too) but they come back a little while later, compelled to repeat - its like herding cats.

I've got two teenage daughters and they're easier than you lot.

You are welcome to volunteer if you'd like to show how its done better.

nine,
wow, calm down....calm down.
ok...ok we know you are a volunteer and you can quit any time; so I will try my best to not to upset you....Again.(I will be mindful that you have contemplated quitting several times.)
What you really saying is ; because you are a volunteer if( god forbid ) a panel/committee/team created to oversee your volunteered work on rare occasions your ego wouldn't allow it and you will be gone. You are pretty sure CV and LM would do the same,but not so sure about the Barjon Since Sharky foolishly said it sounds like a good idea, you are hoping by now he is got the message as well.:smart:
What can i say.....wow...

Could you show me a sentence/word anything in my suggestion (actual or implied) that
criticize moderators and their work or questions their judgements in the past or in the current dispute. (Not that something wrong with it . But it is simply not the case.) So I find your '' You are welcome to volunteer if you'd like to show how its done better'' comment; kind of comment that your teenage daughters would make. I simply suggested the idea; because I saw the same problem occurring often enough; thought in the future this would be a good vehicle to end disputes speedily and fairly so everybody can move on.

Now I will try again with an example what I envisaged how the system would work.
Try to understand the concept and then you might realize is certainly not against the mods, can actually be very helpful to them.
Every week refs in charge of hundreds of matches. They initiate the matches independent of any pressure(well almost) as they see fit.(within the rules and guidelines) and their decision final and binding on the day.

Majority of their decision never challenged. But players has the right to appeal the panel
if they think they have a case. Again majority of appeals dismissed by panel and finds that ref was correct . On very rare occasion panel finds in players favor and revokes the
penalty or reduce the severity of punishment. And everybody moves on. That simple.
Nothing more than that . No conspiracy theory against mods or anything.
Now you may find this unworkable even unhelpful. That would be perfectly legitimate point of view. And you can say so without personalizing argument. Then we can move on . That simple.

searchlight

 

[trendie]

Oh dear, what a to-do!

Mods do a very tedious job, and generally do it very well.
Added to that, they do it for nothing, which is nothing short of heroic!
Don't forget, they are traders first, and mods second.

By its very nature, a dispute tends to have two parties. An adjudication will result in one party feeling hard done by, and the other vindicated. Either way, someone ends up unhappy. Mods take the flak for this.

Mature posters take it on the chin and just move on.
Others may decide to carry on a pointless fight onto other threads, and goad each other.

Having any kind of new "resolution team", SWAT team, or T2W Czar will simply prolong the mess. The losing party to a dispute will, if minded to do so, will simply invoke whatever appeal process exists, just to be a pain. This just wastes time that could be better served elsewhere.

I think Sharky just needs to stand firm and fire off some thunderbolts, and/or simply support the mods decisions.

As for different labels, we have enough.
Advisor, Mod are sufficient.
Too many, and you run the risk of diluting the clear structure.
As an advisor myself, the most I do is Bad Rep what I believe to be spam, but I would do that anyway. Having "helpers", scouts, brownies, just will cause confusion,

Really am not fussed about vendors/advisors.
Again, leave as is.

As for the original issue about posts being deleted: (coming back on-topic), although the exchange was quite funny, I think the longer standing members need to welcome genuine newbies, especially if they pluck up the courage to start a thread, and restrict this kind of banter to Foyer threads, which is what they are for.
So I support the mods for their actions, since the exchange had no bearing on the originators query.

Of course, spammers are fair game and deserve whats coming to them.

Perhaps in future any kind of similar exchange should be moved, rather than deleted, to a "Humour" thread, where they can carry on to their hearts content.

So, did anyone do any trading today?

 

[Rhody Trader]

So, did anyone do any trading today?

I did. But that was mostly because I was keeping my head down to avoid mp lopping it off because I fall in the evil advisor/vendor category.

 

[arabianights]

Searchlight this isn't the bloody civil service. You'll be demanding a mission statement and equal opportunities task force next.

There is already a line of appeal: Paul. It's his website and he can do what ever he likes, as tyrannical or arbitary as it might be. If you disagree with a moderator complaining to him is probably the best bet.

 

[Rhody Trader]

There is already a line of appeal: Paul. It's his website and he can do what ever he likes, as tyrannical or arbitary as it might be.

Sorry. I just had to get up off the floor from laughing at the idea of Paul being "tyrannical".

 

[nine]

Frequently the most interesting thing in an argument is seeing where the ego and personalizing develops. Usually it's the defender of an argument who feels personally attacked when someone rejects the argument.

I repeat my point. Mod's will be less likely to stick around if the tedium level of the job is raised and committees generate bureaucratic tedium. I'll be gone for sure and I expect that others will cut their tenure's shorter. I was surprised to get repped for my rejection of the first post and the first person who approved it was an ex-mod (thanks guys). Bureaucracy is a boring stultifying thing and having briefly worked in the civil service many years ago I always wonder about people who want more of it. I don't.



Side Note 1: Sharky didn't reject the idea just because I don't like it and he put it up for discussion. I haven't contributed because I think my opinion is known

Side note 2: If you want a good read some time try Joseph Wambaugh's Hollywood Station.

 

[nine]

mp6140. Waiting for SPI to open so time for a quick response.

1. It is a potential conflict of interest for a vendor to be an advisor. Note that most of us act as advisors here whether tagged or otherwise. That's why good vendors on T2W have a vendor badge - so that people can see it openly and assess the potential conflict of interest and view any advice (from advisor or other member) with sufficient information.

2. I doubt that he has received any perks etc. I shall say no and the other mods and sharky can contradict me if I'm wrong. If there is no contradiction then "he receives no favouritism." I have deleted more than a few of Mathmagician's posts and he's never asked me to do anything I wouldn't do for other members. Since becoming an advisor I think he's been more cautious and conservative on that front - which is what I think you'd like to see.

3. The market has opened even. Hmmm. I thought spi would open down. Lets wait and see what happens - I still expect it to head down so maybe its "catch a sucker" time.

4. The question others should be interested in IMESHO (in my ever so humble opinion) is:
Is the information that mathemagician provides useful and, to the extent that any information on trading is the whole truth, is it true?

I have found him to be truthful (although I don't always agree with the truths he perceives but this is the nature of advantage in trading), honest and reasonable. Like many others including myself, you, and Bramble, I have also noted that he can be argumentative.

5. The market is now going down, time to trade

 

[Mathemagician]

... can be argumentative.

This is absolutely false! :whistling

jj

 

[mp6140]

This is absolutely false! :whistling

jj

=======================================================
is english your native language ?

everyone else knows it, so why dont you ?

mp

 

[nine]

OK. So we continue at lunctime.

I borrow this from the Integrity Coordinating Group of the WA Government.

"In the public sector context, a conflict of interest involves a conflict between duty as a public officer, and personal or private interests.

Conflicts of interest can also be perceived or potential.

The perception that a public officer’s private interests could improperly influence their public duty can be as important to identify as an actual conflict of interest. This is because public confidence in the integrity of the organisation is vital.

A potential conflict of interest arises where a public officer has private interests that could conflict with their official duties in the future.

Another type of conflict of interest can exist where a public officer has competing interests through more than one official role, or public duty.

Conflicts of interest can occur quite frequently and are not necessarily unethical, or wrong. However, it is how they are identified and managed that is important. If conflict of interest situations are not properly identified and managed, they can endanger the integrity of organisations and can result in corruption in the public service."


I think its potential and you think its actual. The ICG would suggest that the issue is that:

"Conflicts of interest can occur quite frequently and are not necessarily unethical, or wrong. However, it is how they are identified and managed that is important. If conflict of interest situations are not properly identified and managed, they can endanger the integrity of organisations and can result in corruption in the public service. "

I suggest that Paul is aware of the potential here, has identified it, and is managing it.

IMO the value that Mathemagician brings to readers and the diversity he provides (strongly representing the systems viewpoint instead of the dominant discretionary viewpoint) outweighs any potential risk from his perceived, potential, or actual conflict of interest.
.

 

[nine]

Although I do thank you for carrying out this debate in the right place Mike.

 

[arabianights]

Sorry. I just had to get up off the floor from laughing at the idea of Paul being "tyrannical".

I wasn't saying he was... I was saying he had every right to be

 

[TheBramble]

I think the idea of having a different name for the 'advisors' was mooted before, I don't mind changing it if enough people think it's worth the hassle, and people are geniunely worried that advisors could be mis-represented as somehow qualified to give trading advice, and not just website advice.

Other possible names would be:
'Helper'
'Site Advisor'
...any more?

Greeter?

 

[TheBramble]

Using Mathemagician and StratOpt as examples, these are both guys who I know to have a huge wealth of experience in strategy coding and are involved in fund management.

That's great and I'm sure they will both in time be recognised as valuable members and contributors to the site. But...

...What precisely is the role of a t2w Advisor? Is to advise newbies how to find their way around the site and how to use the site facilities? If so, wouldn't that require at least a little more time on these boards then the two you mention currently have?

If on the other hand, it is to provide in-depth trading expertise, pro, retail, whatever (all aspects to be welcomed in my view) there are so many members on these boards who have that expertise, experience and knowledge, but would never dream of taking on any special badge to identify that fact. They are be recognised for what they are by the quality of what they post. No badge will make any difference to that - in either way.

Perhaps a clearer definition of what Advisors are and do and offer would help and would put aside for good many of the concerns that are currently, quite justifiably, being raised.

 

[Mayfly]

mp6140 said:

I have watched magic man figuratively put his arm around a newb who is asking questions about "systems" and gently lead him off stage left !

whispering love words and telling the newb to "PM ME" was a nice touch also !

It kind of makes you wonder if we ought to have an adult section on these boards, doesn't it? Perish the thought about what might have happened next, and I have to ask whether it's safe to hang out around here?

And, err, who is magic man?

Thanks

Cheers

Mayfly

 

[wasp]

That's great and I'm sure they will both in time be recognised as valuable members and contributors to the site. But...

...What precisely is the role of a t2w Advisor? Is to advise newbies how to find their way around the site and how to use the site facilities? If so, wouldn't that require at least a little more time on these boards then the two you mention currently have?

If on the other hand, it is to provide in-depth trading expertise, pro, retail, whatever (all aspects to be welcomed in my view) there are so many members on these boards who have that expertise, experience and knowledge, but would never dream of taking on any special badge to identify that fact. They are be recognised for what they are by the quality of what they post. No badge will make any difference to that - in either way.

Perhaps a clearer definition of what Advisors are and do and offer would help and would put aside for good many of the concerns that are currently, quite justifiably, being raised.

Far as I remember, originally when taking on the role, it was to advise Sharky and the team on the best way to steer the site and help discuss and dissect ideas and to ensure its path at the latest upgrade. We have also been continuing this, constantly exchanging ideas and updating as time goes by.

Never was part of the title in order to be extra helpful to newbies, that's just something I expected long term, experienced members did anyhow. What with this being a community board and all that.