Mike Baghdady - should I take a course or not?

[pboyles]

Malcolm,

Feel free to correct me if any of the following statements are wrong. Though before you say anything I have read the court papers including the bankruptcy case and the Robbins Futures case.

In 1997 Mike sustained heavy losses and a margin call whilst trading his account at Robbins Futures. At the time he was competing in Robbins Futures trading competition. For some reason he disagreed with Robbins Futures actions and sued them, they counter sued and won. In fact they counter sued him for common law fraud plus two other matters. During the hearing he claimed this competition was important to him because of the status that winning it would have given him. A judgement in the region of $350,000 was awarded against him.

Robbins Futures were still chasing this payment at the time the Chapter 11 was filed in 2010 and it is listed as one of his debts. Therefore he still owed money on his trading losses after 13 years. You can argue all day about who was right but a court has made a decision so the facts have been established.

It is prudent when asking for information to allow time for a person to reply especially when posting out of office hours.

As was stated it was Mr Baghdady who filed for Chapter 11 and then withdrew it and the case is closed.

We have already given our official response to this topic:

Official Response on behalf of Training Traders

Unfortunately there have been a number of misleading posts on this site containing misrepresentations of truths and unsubstantiated claims. We respect the right of people to discuss and criticize in an open and objective manor, however in this case there have been a number of misrepresentations and false allegations.

As a company we provide training courses for people new to trading and experienced traders in the Forex, Stock and Futures markets. In addition to the courses we also provide mentoring, live trading rooms, a graduates club and a weekly planning session to help support our clients. We also allow clients to re-take the course for free at a later date. We are not an anonymous web based training company, we perform our training in our offices and invite graduates back to our offices for continued support in our graduates club.
We have the confidence in our training to take a group of people and fund their trading based on the methodology we teach. This does attract criticism as no other training company has the confidence or backing to be able to do this.

We have nothing to hide and are happy to arrange a special workshop to invite Forum members to visit us and see for themselves who we are and what we are about and ask questions.

In response to particular comments:

Mr Baghdady’s chapter 11
Prior to Trading Traders existence Mr Baghdady entered into court action in the USA against a broker following mistakes resulting in wrongful liquidation in his account. After 12 years of litigation and despite the broker admitting to the mistakes in court, the court found for the broker as there was no malice. In mid 2010 Mr Baghdady was ordered to pay the brokers legal fees. Mr Baghdady then filed for the Chapter 11 in order to protect his assets during the financial settlement with the broker (standard practice in the US). Less than 90 days later once the settlement was agreed Mr Baghdady withdrew the Chapter 11. This case is closed (see attached word doc).

Misleading publicity, late payment of bills and staff turnover
It would not be right for us to comment on this in detail, mistakes have been made and we have taken action to try to ensure that the right people are in the right roles to improve this situation.

Turtles
They are still here, a few of them are gainfully making money, most of the rest are even and couple are in negative territory. This is the normal life of a trader, keep in mind they started trading in the tough market conditions of the USA crash and the Euro problems. It is nice to know that people are following the Turtles progress, we will try to improve the postings to help you follow their progress.

Office environment
We believe than an office based training environment allows us to provide a high level of help and support to our clients. However we do not believe in inflating our prices just so we can lavish in luxury surroundings, so we provide facilities equal or better than most standard business offices. As stated above we are happy for people to come and visit to judge for themselves.

 

[pboyles]

d

Misleading publicity, late payment of bills and staff turnover
It would not be right for us to comment on this in detail, mistakes have been made and we have taken action to try to ensure that the right people are in the right roles to improve this situation.

.

Could I just point out that the fake claims still appear on your website so obviously you intend to continue using these false representations. This has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions so you can hardly claim an oversight. Can I direct you to Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006.

Fraud Act 2006

 

[Digbyarbuthnot]

Malcolm,

Feel free to correct me if any of the following statements are wrong. Though before you say anything I have read the court papers including the bankruptcy case and the Robbins Futures case.

In 1997 Mike sustained heavy losses and a margin call whilst trading his account at Robbins Futures. At the time he was competing in Robbins Futures trading competition. For some reason he disagreed with Robbins Futures actions and sued them, they counter sued and won. In fact they counter sued him for common law fraud plus two other matters. During the hearing he claimed this competition was important to him because of the status that winning it would have given him. A judgement in the region of $350,000 was awarded against him.

Robbins Futures were still chasing this payment at the time the Chapter 11 was filed in 2010 and it is listed as one of his debts. Therefore he still owed money on his trading losses after 13 years. You can argue all day about who was right but a court has made a decision so the facts have been established.

So Mr Boyles,

Given that Mike Baghdady has been sued for fraud and lost in the courts, would it be correct to describe him as a convicted fraudster?

Please let me know as I wouldn't want to have one of Mike Baghdady's people accusing me of making baseless allegations. That would be like promising the Turtles £100,000 each to trade........ (have you notice how the Training Traders mob still have't answered the question of funding their trading accounts)

 

[timsk]

Unfortunately there have been a number of misleading posts on this site containing misrepresentations of truths and unsubstantiated claims. We respect the right of people to discuss and criticize in an open and objective manor, however in this case there have been a number of misrepresentations and false allegations.

Hi Malcolm,
Welcome to T2W!

Your list of grievances is serious and, if they are upheld by our team of Moderators, will no doubt result in the appropriate disciplinary action being taken. Might I suggest that if you want the wrongs to be righted, and for the record to be put straight as you see it, then the best course of action would be to quote the misleading posts, misrepresented truths, unsubstantiated claims and false allegations and counter each one with your own version of events? That way, the wider membership will be able to draw their own conclusions about whether your detractors are merely oddballs with some personal grudge to bear, or whether Mr Baghdady and his training organization isn't altogether quite what it purports to be. As things stand, the waters are rather muddy. Your 'official statement' is rather generic and doesn't - to my way of thinking at any rate - make the situation as clear as it could be.

It's just a thought and, if you were to go down this route and address each issue head on as it were - I'm sure that the wider membership would respect you for it. Who knows, you may even get some enquiries for your courses! Lastly, I should emphasize that this is just my personal view and that I've posted this as an ordinary T2W member and not in any official capacity as a paid member of staff.
Tim.

 

[pboyles]

So Mr Boyles,

Given that Mike Baghdady has been sued for fraud and lost in the courts, would it be correct to describe him as a convicted fraudster?

Please let me know as I wouldn't want to have one of Mike Baghdady's people accusing me of making baseless allegations. That would be like promising the Turtles £100,000 each to trade........ (have you notice how the Training Traders mob still have't answered the question of funding their trading accounts)

I dont think it would be correct. I believe that it was a civil matter (that's what we would call it in the UK) and not a criminal matter. Therefore whilst the court agreed that his actions amounted to common law fraud that is not the same thing as a criminal conviction for fraud.

However if someone were to be prosecuted in the UK under the Fraud Act then they would have a criminal conviction and could be described as a 'fraudster'.

 

[pboyles]

Hi Malcolm,
Welcome to T2W!

Your list of grievances is serious and, if they are upheld by our team of Moderators, will no doubt result in the appropriate disciplinary action being taken. Might I suggest that if you want the wrongs to be righted, and for the record to be put straight as you see it, then the best course of action would be to quote the misleading posts, misrepresented truths, unsubstantiated claims and false allegations and counter each one with your own version of events? That way, the wider membership will be able to draw their own conclusions about whether your detractors are merely oddballs with a some personal grudge to bear, or whether Mr Baghdady and his training organization isn't altogether quite what it purports to be. As things stand, the waters are rather muddy. Your 'official statement' is rather generic and doesn't - to my way of thinking at any rate - make the situation as clear as it could be.

It's just a thought and, if you were to go down this route and address each issue head on as it were - I'm sure that the wider membership would respect you for it. Who knows, you may even get some enquiries for your courses! Lastly, I should emphasize that this is just my personal view and that I've posted this as an ordinary T2W member and not in any official capacity as a paid member of staff.
Tim.

There were one or two unsubstantiated claims made about other debts not included in the Chapter 11. I'm not saying they were wrong but they were not supported by documentation. However that does not mean the documentation doesn't exist and couldn't be obtained through the courts and tribunals. I would advise Malcolm that if he goes down this route it may end up with all the unsubstantiated claims being substantiated and published. I'm not sure if that's the outcome he wants.

What's wrong with TT just admitting they told a bunch of lies in their advertising (I have already substantiated that claim) and removing the claims so that they don't mislead others? What happened to just telling the truth?

 

[pboyles]

I think we know where the idea of claiming to be world champion came from. He clearly thought winning the Robbins competition would help him flog courses.

 

[pboyles]

Malcolm,

Can you also comment on Mike's claim to have been awarded 'trader of the year' by the American Chamber of Commerce in Cairo? Is this a genuine claim?

 

[DoubleACL]

I am one of the turtles who works for Mike and Ben. Here's my own
opinion and no one else's.

I chose to join the turtle program leaving very good job to take my
shot at trading. I had absolutely no experience of trading but I'm
extremely happy with my decision.

Anyone who actually trades will know about the recent volatility but
I'm seriously happy with my trading account (I'm not writing my balance on here because it is frankly not any of your business). I have learned an
incredible amount and owe that all to Mike and Ben. I now feel more
confident in my trading to make the right decisions to be profitable
in the long term. Sure, I've made mistakes along the way and I still
have a lot to learn but with the guidance we've received I feel that
we are all becoming far better traders. It has been an invaluable
experience. I now know that there is not another job in the world I
would rather be doing....even on the days when you lose. I come to
work in an office everyday and I'm given invaluable information,
access to the markets, a desk on a real trading floor, trading real
money and get guidance to make me a better trader........ We get this along
side the graduates and very much work together.

I think I should also add some background to this 'discussion'. In
late January, someone who used work in our office (I used the term
'work' loosely, in fact I'm not sure what he did) left in rather a bad mood after explaining that he and
Mike had had a disagreement. The following week, in the middle of the
night, there were very amateur posters put up on the outside of the
building defaming the business. I removed them before 7am so it really
wasn't that successful. A week or so later these threads started and
there were a lot of people posting that were new members since Jan/Feb.
(Around the time when this person left our office). I'm sure given
the level of proof that's evidently needed in these forums that the
main contributors to the discussion are not all they seem to be. If I
am wrong and I'm pointing fingers at the wrong people then I
apologise.

With that in mind however, I invite anyone genuine in this thread,
whether contributing or not, to prize themselves away from behind
their computer, come to the office and see what we do. If you like it
then great, if not then that's no problem. But I implore you not to
believe the drivel written on here by people who clearly bear a
grudge.

For those that do spend all day on this forum just to write about this
business and this program, I suggest you get a job. It will do you
good.

 

[pboyles]

There is very little that has been said on this thread that wasn't said back in summer 2010 and several times since. To say it all started in January is nonsense and even the briefest google search would show you that the bankruptcy issue and the fake advertising have all been discussed on various forums over the past couple of years. These problems didn't arise because of some personal grievance they arose because Mike and Ben were foolish enough to make their infamous TV advert which drew attention to them. Obviously their claims didn't stand up to scrutiny and matters were made much worse when they used threats to have any reference to them deleted.

 

[pipsplease]

DoubleACL.
I am in no way having a go at any of the turtles but you do seem to ask for it.
Could you tell us about why the person who "used to work in your office" left and what the "disagreement with Mike" Baghdady was about?

If you cannot answer truthfully then you have put yourself in a very poor position, making judgements on matters that you do not have facts and detail on.

Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe someone who has a disagreement with Mike Baghdady might posissibly be in the right and that Mr Baghdady could be in the wrong. Not saying this is the case here but given what we are discovering on here and elsewhere there must be a chance that Mr Baghady is not always as he seems to you.
Happy that you are getting something out of the turtle scheme and understand that you do not wish to reveal your trading position at the moment but could you please tell us if you at least got the £100,000 Mr Baghdady promised so publically - or even close to it?

 

[j b]

Accusations of vested interests are a distraction, until this is explained:

 

[pipsplease]

Double ACL
It just occurred to me that as well as the person"who used to work in our office" leaving after a disagreement with Mike Baghdady - two directors also left. Did they have a disagreement with Mr Baghdady?
Do you know why any of them left?
Has anyone else left in similar circumstances?
Please let us know - pattern forming here I think!

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

I am one of the turtles who works for Mike and Ben. Here's my own
opinion and no one else's.

I chose to join the turtle program leaving very good job to take my
shot at trading. I had absolutely no experience of trading but I'm
extremely happy with my decision.

Anyone who actually trades will know about the recent volatility but
I'm seriously happy with my trading account (I'm not writing my balance on here because it is frankly not any of your business). I have learned an
incredible amount and owe that all to Mike and Ben. I now feel more
confident in my trading to make the right decisions to be profitable
in the long term. Sure, I've made mistakes along the way and I still
have a lot to learn but with the guidance we've received I feel that
we are all becoming far better traders. It has been an invaluable
experience. I now know that there is not another job in the world I
would rather be doing....even on the days when you lose. I come to
work in an office everyday and I'm given invaluable information,
access to the markets, a desk on a real trading floor, trading real
money and get guidance to make me a better trader........ We get this along
side the graduates and very much work together.

I think I should also add some background to this 'discussion'. In
late January, someone who used work in our office (I used the term
'work' loosely, in fact I'm not sure what he did) left in rather a bad mood after explaining that he and
Mike had had a disagreement. The following week, in the middle of the
night, there were very amateur posters put up on the outside of the
building defaming the business. I removed them before 7am so it really
wasn't that successful. A week or so later these threads started and
there were a lot of people posting that were new members since Jan/Feb.
(Around the time when this person left our office). I'm sure given
the level of proof that's evidently needed in these forums that the
main contributors to the discussion are not all they seem to be. If I
am wrong and I'm pointing fingers at the wrong people then I
apologise.

With that in mind however, I invite anyone genuine in this thread,
whether contributing or not, to prize themselves away from behind
their computer, come to the office and see what we do. If you like it
then great, if not then that's no problem. But I implore you not to
believe the drivel written on here by people who clearly bear a
grudge.

For those that do spend all day on this forum just to write about this
business and this program, I suggest you get a job. It will do you
good.

I might take you up on that offer to come and see you, I have no axe to grind. What instruments are you trading? Have you been profitable so far?

 

[Lightning McQueen]

I might take you up on that offer to come and see you, I have no axe to grind. What instruments are you trading? Have you been profitable so far?

while you're there choccy, have a count up of how many turtles there are, is it 10? 14? 20? i'm having difficulty from the online facts how many there are supposed to be, and how many there actually are. no matter, one way or tother really. but do check any success from sept 2011 please. no news since then, so that'll be interesting

 

[Poolio]

Double ACL
It just occurred to me that as well as the person"who used to work in our office" leaving after a disagreement with Mike Baghdady - two directors also left. Did they have a disagreement with Mr Baghdady?
Do you know why any of them left?
Has anyone else left in similar circumstances?
Please let us know - pattern forming here I think!

I am another one of the new turtles and have been reading this thread over the past few days. I have been planning to write a lengthy response but haven't done so yet. However, these questions about people who have left the company I find really annoying as I don't see the relevance and in particular how they relate to the courses that Training Traders offer.

Yes it is true that since I started as a Turtle a few people have left the company including two directors. Hiring and firing happens all the time in any company, there's nothing unusual about this. I don't know all the circumstances or reasons why some of these people left the company but why should I? It's none of my business....my role here is to trade, appointments and dismissals are Mike's business and not mine.

 

[Lightning McQueen]

I am another one of the new turtles and have been reading this thread over the past few days. I have been planning to write a lengthy response but haven't done so yet. However, these questions about people who have left the company I find really annoying as I don't see the relevance and in particular how they relate to the courses that Training Traders offer.

Yes it is true that since I started as a Turtle a few people have left the company including two directors. Hiring and firing happens all the time in any company, there's nothing unusual about this. I don't know all the circumstances or reasons why some of these people left the company but why should I? It's none of my business....my role here is to trade, appointments and dismissals are Mike's business and not mine.

hi poolio, congrats on being selected. maybe you can cast some light as to why we've heard nothing from last year as to progress. can i ask how it's going? as a group stat, is the p/l positive? please can we have an update. thanks.

 

[pboyles]

I see another day has passed without any answers to the very specific questions raised here.

 

[The Leopard]

A very interesting thread. Well done to many of the posters, and especially well done to the moderators for managing the thread so sensibly.

It seems to be an excellent opportunity for Mahmoud "Mike" Baghdady to clear up a number of matters, and no doubt it is one that he is grateful for and eager to embrace.

There have been specific allegations and claims made on both sides, and it would be a good idea if the forum could be favoured with a direct response to these allegations from an official spokesman. I address these questions principally to Malcolm Steel, since he has already indicated that he is acting in an official capacity, although I am sure the forum would welcome responses from any official source as long as they directly address the questions raised.

Question 1

I understand that Mr Baghdady claims to be a millionaire trader. Why then in the court documents relating to the bankruptcy proceedings (see posts passim ad nauseam) does he list his sole income as $75,000 from Spyglass?

It seems likely that a millionaire trader would in most years make (or perhaps lose) substantial sums of money in his trading activities. Why in Mr Baghdady's case is his sole income a relatively modest one derived solely from from running a training company?

Is his statement that his sole source of income was $75,000 from Spyglass correct, or did he provide inaccurate information to a New York court in the course of his bankruptcy proceedings?

 

[The Leopard]

Again for the attention of Malcolm Steel or other official spokesman of Mr Baghdady:

Question 2

It has been alleged that bailiffs visited Mr Baghdady's offices on at least three occasions to recover monies owing. Please confirm or deny this.