Market Manipulation

[Mycroft Algoman]

BTW, any chance of you answering this:
Why would they play with their feeds if they could make the underlying do their bidding.
Contradiction in terms.

For the second time but less short-hand... certain 'plays' or positions are either too large or too inconveniently timed to be dealt with by singular actions. Such unilateral action can put 'partners' at financial liability.

To whit, if the true market had gone up due to there being genuine support for the share prices, as happened yesterday, and the market rose in line with the scramble for shares that occurred (check the numbers yourself) then all the Boards would have lost a fortune had the market risen above the redline substantially the Big6 would have taken a huge hit, immense.

The support was 'pulled' from the Public market to an internal one (Dark Pool) and the deal done out of the public domain (that is why, quite soon, a huge rise over a 5 to 10 day period will again occur, equal to the one we have seen in the last 10 days) so the main market pulled the stake, it dropped and returned, the drop was ignored by the B6 but the sudden rise used to 'clear' a good number of shorted positions.

That is a 'win-win' scenario.

 

[Liquid validity]

F**k me...
The "Big6" are a drop in the ocean to the underlying.
There is no connection between underlying market spikes and
a comparatively small section of the UK retail market.
The connection is retarded and baseless.
There is no connection, they are separate and distinct.

Are you seriously trying to suggest a handful of UK spread bet cos.
influence major global markets?
Lulz

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

Bucket shops play with feeds.
Algos cause spikes, so what, that it?
Thats your startling revelation...

You still haven't answered this:
Why would they play with their feeds if they could make the underlying do their bidding.
Contradiction in terms.

Forgive me but I've never claimed a 'startling' revelation, just the removal of the degree of manipulation from the realm of whisper, rumour, apocrypha and a 'Nudge and a Wink' to domain of the recorded and attributable.

Algos don't just cause spikes as an unfortunate attribute of just being in existence, they are used to perform 'take outs' at will for the sole purpose of making money for one side alone...

You cannot have failed to notice that when a flash occurs that is accidental and hurt the market money spinners that bets are re-instated and the market continues as if it happened at all, if they don't harm the 'mms' it is lost and if they occur (and they do, regularly) at the bidding of the 'mms' they are written out of history.

If you 'have' noticed this then your current insouciance is remarkable!

 

[Liquid validity]

The point is the two are not connected

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

F**k me...
The "Big6" are a drop in the ocean to the underlying.
There is no connection between underlying market spikes and
a comparatively small section of the UK retail market.
The connection is retarded and baseless.
There is no connection, they are separate and distinct.

Are you seriously trying to suggest a handful of UK spread bet cos.
influence major global markets?
Lulz

I will attempt to explain this again if my first post regarding how they are used to manoeuvre the swarm was missed or not quite grasped by you.

It is the size of the placements that is used to move the market to where the term point is defined in the most economic and profitable manner.

('Term point' is a defined destination for prices at certain times)

It is a road map with profitable way points.

Profit is made on movement, up or down makes no difference to the Algos, both directions (thanks to the way points we represent) are profitable.

No movement = no profit.

This is fundamental market finance.

We call it scalping, but the Algos are designed to do precisely that all the time, it is ALL that they do, but they do it second by second for small sums relentlessly.

So the players in the Big6 are not in themselves influential but they do create the landscape on the route map, your singular pound or two is not here nor there, they are just money centres to be used to track a course.

Any profit by an individual made is almost entirely coincidental and accidental.

I guess for some it hurts their ego to be told this, but it is as true as the Pope being Catholic.

The Big6 will quite cheerfully acquiesce in this relationship and in return their backs are covered in extremis.

Symbiosis.

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

The point is the two are not connected

See post above.

 

[Liquid validity]

UK spreadbet cos. do not influence the underlying market.
That is the connection you inferred, it does not exist.

Spreadbet cos. playing with their feed due to underlying market changes
is cause and effect, nothing more.

Either way, it will only affect anyone doing very short term stuff.
Trading very short term with an SB is retarded - DMA is cheaper
and is market, not a synthetic book based on it.

 

[Liquid validity]

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/179056-why-do-traders-fail-10.html#post2192214

The example I gave above regarding the events at and around 10.10 to 10.16 show clearly the underlying market working in collusion with the SB boards.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/179056-why-do-traders-fail-8.html#post2192176

Dropping 20 or 30 points can be requested and then paid for... and it is, quite often in order to cull a tranche of bets that would cost too much to pay out.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/179056-why-do-traders-fail-11.html#post2192260

So the players in the Big6 are not in themselves influential but they do create the landscape on the route map, your singular pound or two is not here nor there, they are just money centres to be used to track a course.

Feel free to stop back pedaling or explain the above contradiction.
Initially, you quite clearly claimed UK SB cos. directly influence the underlying.
Now you are changing your story - because its bo11ox, and you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[WR1]

oh dear..

the thread is past 10 pages and down the same old road again
quite interesting reading though, if it was n't for so many pages to read

Beers all round

 

[Liquid validity]

oh dear..

the thread is past 10 pages and down the same old road again
quite interesting reading though, if its was n't for some many pages to read

Beers all round

True, same old f**king story...algoman another snake oil vendor in the making I'd guess.

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

'Underlying Market'...

Perhaps you have a different view of what constitutes the 'underlying market'.

I will define what is to me an underlying market.

For me the price headline is NOT the underlying market, that is the fanfare market price and is only a temperature gauge.

The Underlying Market is the true value and my guess is that this is about 88 to 92% of the fanfare price and grows very slowly and goes up or down subject to the old tenet of Market Forces and World events.

Then about half of the remainder (4 to 6%) is the Middle Market all about making money go 'round the system between the main parties, a sort of constant war of attribution of sums of money and it too grows slowly (in gross amount) and moves up or down seen usually in take-overs and similar major influences.

The remainder is new money, the New Market, us and the many other neophytes and tyros of the Coin-spinner age.

The destination of price of the Fanfare indices is decided in the space within the Middle Market feeding both itself and the Underlying Market, it feeds off the New Market.

The most 'useful' (if not the most profitable... yet!) is this New Market, it provides funds in the form of new money that is easily culled to feed the two main (ever hungry) underlying entities.

Everyone here is likely to be a New Marketeer, you may hold real paper shares/stock lists but these are simply mirrors of the Underlying Market but you don't 'deal' daily in the Underlying Market, you are not meant to.

If there were no new money (we all stopped playing) the market would soon start to eat itself.

Before the advent of the Algos this was not a problem, the Humans stopped taking quite so much and there was little money in the City back then and wages very low indeed for a Stockbroker or similar.

But Algos are voracious, I design them (for medical and other purposes) and they cannot comprehend 'harm' or 'damage'.

The rise of Algorithmic trading and more importantly the recent adoption in fundamental trading entities is a huge risk that pulling the plug won't at some point solve.

But that is for another time and may not even be appropriate on a forum like this.

So, I have defined the three parts of the Market that I can clearly define and give attribution to, is it in accord with your own or do you differ in some way?

TIA

 

[Liquid validity]

Stop dodging the question with a wall of text waffle and answer the question:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/179056-why-do-traders-fail-12.html#post2192278

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

True, same old f**king story...algoman another snake oil vendor in the making I'd guess.

Ahh... the reason for your affectation of false laughter and similar... I have nothing to sell, no 'I have a system' sales patter to offer anyone here.

I'd guessed you were in reality just testing the water for this and I don't know if you'll be overjoyed or sad I'm not here to get some poor soul to spend money on a 'Fool-proof System' there is no such thing as either a 'system', 'thought process', 'psychobull' or anything else I can think of that will give anyone success.

Hopefully, having cleared the air (you would have better just asking me "What are you selling Matey" as you'd get the same as above... not a damned thing) some here might not be quite so recalcitrant on their opinions and ideas.

I speak plainly, I have no time for the meely-mouthed or the smooth tongued snake-oil vendors, they will only take more money from you.

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

Stop dodging the question with a wall of text waffle and answer the question:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/179056-why-do-traders-fail-12.html#post2192278

It has been answered, in your anxiety driven attempt to build a declamatory story you have not grasped the quite clear message.

Drop the animosity, it is a falsehood and I loathe falsehood as much (and possibly more) than you fear my presence as a some sort of scammer.

Read it all again and we can start afresh.

It is not beyond your comprehension.

 

[Liquid validity]

It has been answered, in your anxiety driven attempt to build a declamatory story you have not grasped the quite clear message.

Drop the animosity, it is a falsehood and I loathe falsehood as much (and possibly more) than you fear my presence as a some sort of scammer.

Read it all again and we can start afresh.

It is not beyond your comprehension.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/179056-why-do-traders-fail-12.html#post2192278
No it has not been answered.
You're not fooling anyone with your bullsh1t.

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

No it has not been answered.
You're not fooling anyone with your bullsh1t.

OK, I will try one last time, if you don't get a grip of what I'm saying then I will have to assume your animosity is not borne from anxiety over an overt attempt to garner money from members of this site but instead is just dumb ignorance on your part.

Originally Posted by Mycroft Algoman View Post
The example I gave above regarding the events at and around 10.10 to 10.16 show clearly the underlying market working in collusion with the SB boards.

So the Middle Market that mediates the Underlying and the New is alerted to a huge change in the flow from within, the Fanfare price was all set to drop to make money for the UM and MM and there was a conflict of interest.

With me so far?

Dropping 20 or 30 points can be requested and then paid for... and it is, quite often in order to cull a tranche of bets that would cost too much to pay out.

Yes, but this was not called for by the New Market yesterday, this was caused by what I outlined in my previous paragraph, the Middle Market, you have conflated the two.

Still with me?

No contradiction, just your errant conflation of instances.

So the players in the Big6 are not in themselves influential but they do create the landscape on the route map, your singular pound or two is not here nor there, they are just money centres to be used to track a course.

Again this is correct, as individuals we play little singular part, but as outlined in either my first or second post in this thread, when you or I make a judgement we won't be alone so each player only becomes influential when grouped together, but that influence is contrarian to intent, it promotes a downfall as the profit is in moving against that larger body of money (taking it) and just paying out to the smaller body that went the other way.

Still with me I'm hoping!

These cores of money are there to be utilised by the Algorithms in much the same way as an ape will traverse a jungle swinging from branch to branch to get to a certain place.

Without the presence of the Boards there would be fewer branches to swing on and therefore fewer opportunities to make money... that 'money' is all lovely new stuff, fresh meat you might say to feed the ever hungry beast that runs the show.

The Parasite that kills its host is destined to die itself if it is too aggressive, it has to nurture or at least keep the body corporeal around long enough to move on, we act as hosts in this analogy.

If you still harbour doubts about my intentions in being here then I can't think of much more I can do to quell the anxiety you have... except keep on answering your questions (even if they are faulted with errant conflations) as best I can.

 

[Liquid validity]

No that still does not answer the question:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/179056-why-do-traders-fail-12.html#post2192278


Simple yes or no answer will do to the following question:
Do UK SB cos. EVER influence the underlying market.

The answer is clearly no.

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

The answer is clearly... Yes.

1/. Anything that brings new money to the market, that adds funds and provides a means to continue to add funds to the underlying core is going to influence it.

So that is how in one respect influence is felt.

2/. Reciprocation is the next way in which influence is seen. The money, the new money comes at a price, but the underlying market knows what's good for it so it is willingly given, that price is protection from ill winds of fortune.

 

[Liquid validity]

Yes.

Thanks for finally giving a clear answer.
Very lulzy as well that you think a small retail sector of the
UK market influences global market prices I must say...

I guess I stand corrected.
All those New Jersey algo outfits, pension funds,
corporate FX hedging desks, hedge funds and so on all base their decisions
on UK bucket shop price feeds and net exposure hedge trades...

Lulz.

 

[Liquid validity]

The answer is clearly... Yes.

1/. Anything that brings new money to the market, that adds funds and provides a means to continue to add funds to the underlying core is going to influence it.

So that is how in one respect influence is felt.

2/. Reciprocation is the next way in which influence is seen. The money, the new money comes at a price, but the underlying market knows what's good for it so it is willingly given, that price is protection from ill winds of fortune.

Nicely edited 9 mins after posting to back pedal on your earlier comments.
Your original inference was that SB cos. directly collude with
and request spikes from larger participants:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/179056-why-do-traders-fail-12.html#post2192278

You initially answered "yes" to this quesion:
Simple yes or no answer will do to the following question:
Do UK SB cos. EVER influence the underlying market.

Now you say its just SB net exposure hedging that influences the underlying.
Even UK SB net exposure hedging is a drop in the ocean.
Its pretty clear you don't have a clue.