Losers

[smbtnt]

Maybe someone on this site might be able to assist me with my search.

I am looking for a thread totally dedicated to losing trades.

This might sound like a strange request but I feel the education and experienced gained from a losing trade is more beneficial than a losing one.
It could have arisen from a strategy trade or one that lacked discipline, from beginner traders or the pros.

Lots of winning charts have been posted lately which is highly admirable but I do feel a mention of the losers would assist most members on this forum.

 

[garethb]

I think you can perhaps learn more from looking at your own losing trades than other peoples. What are you hoping to learn "I mustn't take trades that look like that" One person's losing trade may result from a setup that exactly fits your own trading plan. Does that mean your plan is wrong?

If a trade was taken which complied with a person's rules and plan and was a loser then it is not a mistake it is just part of the probability game. If a losing trade results from breaking the traders own rules then the lessons to be learnt are inside that traders head I'm doubtful you will learn to not make such mistakes by hearing other peoples errors.

I do agree that lots of "Here's one I did earlier" type winners are not that useful either

Best of Luck


Gareth

 

[charliechan]

I think you can perhaps learn more from looking at your own losing trades than other peoples. What are you hoping to learn "I mustn't take trades that look like that" One person's losing trade may result from a setup that exactly fits your own trading plan. Does that mean your plan is wrong?

If a trade was taken which complied with a person's rules and plan and was a loser then it is not a mistake it is just part of the probability game. If a losing trade results from breaking the traders own rules then the lessons to be learnt are inside that traders head I'm doubtful you will learn to not make such mistakes by hearing other peoples errors.

I do agree that lots of "Here's one I did earlier" type winners are not that useful either

Best of Luck


Gareth

kind of agree with that.

learning from your own mistakes is probably best - but only upto a point. if you keep focusing on losses, guess what youre going to get.....

just like the way our fears have a habit of materialising - because we are so focused upon them, we subconsciously steer ourselves towards that end state

 

[TheBramble]

Sort of agree with your intent CC, and totally support the view that examining losing trades is a worthwhile exercise. Focus does sound a little obsessive. Each (winning & losing) deserve equal attention.

What caught my eye was your use of the phrase "we subconsciously steer ourselves towards that end state". A tip from the F1 racing world - when you want to go where you want to go - LOOK there, not where you don't want to go...

 

[PKFFW]

So true Bramble. I've seen so many car accidents in my time and one thing seems to stick out. It is unbelievable how many times a car will hit a tree or phone pole or other parked car, even if that is the only object within sight. It all come down to the driver focusing on that object, fearing hitting it, in the end they steer towards it and crash straight into what they feared hitting!

 

[blackcab]

So true Bramble. I've seen so many car accidents in my time and one thing seems to stick out. It is unbelievable how many times a car will hit a tree or phone pole or other parked car, even if that is the only object within sight. It all come down to the driver focusing on that object, fearing hitting it, in the end they steer towards it and crash straight into what they feared hitting!

Just a 'me too' - yes, this is a real phenomenon. When you're learning to ride a big scary motorbike and you're trying to do a 180 degree turn at 1mph, sitting on what feels like a jet rocket on wheels, it's actually impossible to do *unless* you force yourself to override your natural inclination and fix your gaze on where you want to be, rather than at the brick wall 10 feet in front of you. It's an illuminating experience, and, if you can do it, you soon develop your MP (motorbiking persona, natch). "Look where you want to go, and you'll go where you look". Then learn to look far enough ahead to set your line, and plan your exits, every second, and you amaze yourself at what you can do at speed. Hmm, it's beginning to sound familiar.

 

[smbtnt]

As traders our goals is to employ solid risk management and be aware of the potential downside before placing the trade. While in other walks of life e.g. sports etc the emphasis is on the positive aspects. Their lies the contrast between the two fields. I am always mulling over my losses but evidently nonchalant over my winners.
Maybe I am not exhibiting the correct mindset and hence inhibiting development of my trading psyche.

 

[irishpaddypc]

Maybe someone on this site might be able to assist me with my search.

I am looking for a thread totally dedicated to losing trades.

This might sound like a strange request but I feel the education and experienced gained from a losing trade is more beneficial than a losing one.
It could have arisen from a strategy trade or one that lacked discipline, from beginner traders or the pros.

Lots of winning charts have been posted lately which is highly admirable but I do feel a mention of the losers would assist most members on this forum.

Smbtnt,

I totally agree with your logic. If you can find losing trades than learning to do the opposite must pay lot$$$$$$$$$$ of cash!

I can show you 10-100 trades over a period of 1-2years and every single trade will LOSE you money! Do you want to see the trades?
If your decision is yes?
Would you want me to put all the trades here on this thread or do you want them sent by PM?

BTW, these trades can bust a bank bigger than Barings.

Paddy

 

[crystalballs]

Smbtnt. I'll give you a losing trade, it went something like this...The other day i was trading XYZ (like you do), i was looking for a break-out, but, it went against me!!!! So i took a 5 point loss (example), and then swithched tactics and made the loss back with a little profit. That's trading, matey. I hope this helps.

 

[Splitlink]

Smbtnt. I'll give you a losing trade, it went something like this...The other day i was trading XYZ (like you do), i was looking for a break-out, but, it went against me!!!! So i took a 5 point loss (example), and then swithched tactics and made the loss back with a little profit. That's trading, matey. I hope this helps.

That makes two of us (at least). I have not mastered the art of deciding, correctly, the difference between a breakout and a pullback.

Split

 

[smbtnt]

Smbtnt. I'll give you a losing trade, it went something like this...The other day i was trading XYZ (like you do), i was looking for a break-out, but, it went against me!!!! So i took a 5 point loss (example), and then swithched tactics and made the loss back with a little profit. That's trading, matey. I hope this helps.

All I was looking for was a thread where traders analyse and study their losses and see why they failed in order to further fine tune their edge and learn to exploit from the instance.

 

[garethb]

I don't think there is such a thread. Why don't you start one?

Pick one of your losing trades and post it on the boards. Give a chart at the point you entered with your reasons for entering the trade. Give a chart with your exit (assuming you've exited yet!!) giving reasoning. Also provide a chart a while later (depending on your trading timeframe) with a few thoughts in hindsight.

Just preparing such a post will probably teach you a few things and you might find you don't even need to post it. If you do I'm sure some people on here will give helpful comments and you will gain much respect. You might even start a valuable trend.

Regards,

Gareth

 

[TWI]

There is no difference between a winning and losing trade in approach and execution. This attempted isolation of losers will not help anybody.

 

[charliechan]

There is no difference between a winning and losing trade in approach and execution. This attempted isolation of losers will not help anybody.

although i agree with this in principal, i would admit that a small % of my losing trades are often because i made some error - got too greedy and traded when it wasnt lined up just right etc...patience, discipline, patience, discipline - stuff we have all heard 100000's of times before.

for me it isnt so much about the analysis of the market, but analysis of myself. why did i do that when i knew it wasnt quite a perfect set up etc.....


clearly a tick in the box for those with strictly mechanical approaches!

 

[TheBramble]

There is no difference between a winning and losing trade in approach and execution.

I don't believe you really meant it quite like that.

Providing the approach (system & methodology) is sound and the execution within pre-defined (for your chosen strategy) limits, there will be far more winning trades than losing trades. Within a perfectly planned and perfectly executed trading scenario, yes, both winning and losing trades have the same event profile: They set up, they are executed and they terminate with a hit on profit/target or on stop loss. So they both run from start to finish perfectly. One makes a profit. One makes a loss.

But I can give you far many more approaches and execution situations which will produce losing trades than winning trades. Tested most of them too.

To those who have less trading experience, your comment may have been interpreted in quite the opposite way. i.e. doesn't matter what approach or execution criteria you use. When of course, they are the absolute difference that makes the difference.

This attempted isolation of losers will not help anybody.

I'm not so sure. I did this myself in the early days and I'm not convinced I didn't get anything from the review process. But then again, reviewing the winners too sometimes reveals opportunities for increasing profits. And then again, again, the reviewing winners process has on occasion led me down the 'get greedy' route and encouraged me to attempt to get 'too much' off the table with the inevitable consequences. So I guess looking at all your trades - those taken and those not, might be a useful thing to do. Especially if you're not yet consistently hooking it.

On balance, I review my bread and butter trades less now than I used to. My real focus in terms of review effort go into my areas of new research rather than the production line trading which generates the income. But in retrospect, what are now my 'standard' systems were at one time, work in progress, and subject to the same level of effort and review as are my current new areas of research...

Not a particularly helpful post other than to illustrate the confusions of trading. Or perhaps just the confusions of a confused mind...

 

[TWI]

Bramble,
Reading your reply, I can see how my comments could be misinterpreted.
I will try to clarify
If somebody gets to the point of risking money on a model whether discretionary or mechanical then it must be seen as a process that will encompass many winners and many losers. It is essential to execute every entry even though you will not know at the time of placing it whether the trade will terminate in a profit or a loss. It is equally essential to take every exit exactly as the chosen methodology dictates. A human mind often questions these decisions at the time of taking on or off risk but it is essential to make these short term emotions redundant by having a very well defined set of rules regarding how you are to trade before you start. This becomes all the more essential when you are running trades across a portfolio of markets. The process has to be mechanical and there can be no question of whether this or that trade was a profit or a loss, it is not relevant, what matters is that the machine continues to operate and over time the combination of many trades produces a positive return. The drilling down into the detail of individual trades has to be done before the start button is pressed. I admit to continually seeking improvements in my own systems but my machine is on every day and when the machine is on the systems run and are adhered to as much as my mental state allows, which despite what I have said here is certainly not as 100% as it sometimes should be.
So, what ends up being of consequence here?
It is just the positive expectancy of 10, 100, 500 trades.

 

[smbtnt]

I don't think there is such a thread. Why don't you start one?

Pick one of your losing trades and post it on the boards. Give a chart at the point you entered with your reasons for entering the trade. Give a chart with your exit (assuming you've exited yet!!) giving reasoning. Also provide a chart a while later (depending on your trading timeframe) with a few thoughts in hindsight.

Just preparing such a post will probably teach you a few things and you might find you don't even need to post it. If you do I'm sure some people on here will give helpful comments and you will gain much respect. You might even start a valuable trend.

Regards,

Gareth

Time permitting I might just do that, this will entail me revealing my strategy.
Hopefully it will accelerate the learning curve and give me an insight as to whether its the strategy or the individual executing it that needs to be modified.