Let your profits run?

If you take a bunch of completely random systems, and trade them for a couple of years you'll get a distribution in profits and losses, with an average return of 0 minus transaction costs.

If you retrospectively look at the non profitable systems, and ask what the optimum stop size should have been, you'll generally find that a tight stop would have improved the performance of those systems. These systems where non profitable because they had a lot of losses, so limiting those losses makes perfect sense.

However, if you retrospectively look at the profitable systems, and determine an optimum stop size, you'll find that tight stops are detrimental because they eliminate many of the winning trades (winning trades that where achieved by random chance rather than skill)

In my experience, most professionals are pretty clueless, and they are operating in an environment that is similar to complete random chance. If they are profitable, and they analyse their trades, they find that wider stops are actually beneficial, and tight stops are detrimental. The same argument applies to profitable amateur traders, their statistics will indicate the same thing. It's a classic case of being fooled by randomness. The majority of profitable traders fall into these categories, and in an attempt to help others, they mislead possibly with the best of intentions.

Of course, with our random traders, over the longer term mean reversion will occur and those profitable traders, will encounter a rate of losses that are above average, but with larger stops. The non profitable traders will encounter an above average win rate but with tighter stops, and of course, those using tight stops will do better than those with wider stops.

Ironically, the situation inverts once you start trading with a genuine edge.

Mr Socco is 100% correct, tight stops are the way to go.

The above should be discounted for human error , phsyche which is 80 % of trading , execution errors and blow ups , but after allowing for all this there may be no advantage with tight stops.Wider stops are probably better as only 20 % of a great winning strategy may get hit with wide stops , there will be early exits which still leave the edge in favour of the winning strategy.

A crap entry will always remain a crap entry , tight stops/trailing stops work both way in choppy trends .The better strategies allow trades to mushroom ,without stops/trailing etc and here the profits per trade are much higher .
 
If you continue to believe that, you will continue to loose. Being a master in anything is all about technique, knowledge, and skills. Bad loosers blame other minor factors.

All this type of talk is back testing and demo trading without emotions.Most of these theories never repeat in actual trading , but heck the following results with wide stops are repeatable in actual trading.
 

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What do you mean by wide stops ?
X pips, X ATR ?
I know its only lulz, but can we be a bit more specific ?
 
30 pips in the above, if you had 50 pip stops it would not make much difference.

OK

What's the size of an average loss in pips
What's the size of an average win in pips

The values in your spreadsheet are in GBP, so I don't want to make any assumptions
 
OK

What's the size of an average loss in pips
What's the size of an average win in pips

The values in your spreadsheet are in GBP, so I don't want to make any assumptions

gbp is typo error , same values , they are pips.
 
gbp is typo error , same values , they are pips.

OK, so your average win is around 24 pips, average loss around 16, and a 30 pip initial stop.

Do you have details of largest winner ?
I assume largest loser is approximately 30 pips
Do you have any idea of the average duration of these trades ?
What instrument are you trading ?
 
All this type of talk is back testing and demo trading without emotions.Most of these theories never repeat in actual trading , but heck the following results with wide stops are repeatable in actual trading.

In demo trading you don't have the guy on the other side of your trade to contend with. You loose in real trading because the monkey on the other side has control of the price lever.
 
Do you re-enter and how do asses re-entries?

It is entirely dependent on what is going on and where price is. I'll give some examples ranging through different TF's and set-ups - it's all down to experience:

a. Intraday, open out of the previous day's range to the upside whilst trend is up. So if it opens and looks weak, I would take a short - how far this goes is anybodys guess but candidate areas like gap close, European test low, S/R are all viable targets. Personally I don't re-enter these if I get taken out and if they re-assert in the original direction - they generally have a low quantity of contracts going through typically indicating a lack of size/momentum behind it. Unless it is very clearly a 1-way market (in which case get in) then stay away.

b. Intraday, test of the initial balance low. This often does not hold so although you might have got long on the initial swing low and got stopped out, I would not consider getting back in unless I saw clear evidence on T&S that sellers had buggered off. If they have, then you are in for a nice little ride as it moves to test the IB high or O/N high which is usually a few points. Again this is subjective.

c. New high's being made on the hourly with a strong rejection. So my initial gambit here would be to get on this move and trail on lower highs/lower lows forming on the hourly. As soon as LH/LL stops then I tighten the stop up. Often I will get taken out here. However I then watch to see how it behaves when it goes back to the high and if it fails, get in again as you are generally in for a longer ride down as everybody has seen the second failure. A good example of a re-entry opportunity IMO.

d. Trading around S/R off the hourly. Normally a turn on ES will take 2+ hrs and you are kind of in the same boat again as (c) except you are running the risk of getting caught up in the churn. Normally I wait for a good rejection and then put in a limit order around the high. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't.

e. Intraday sell-off. So this the the aggressive selling off you get from time to time when somebody wants to shakeout the market and bring price to a more acceptable value for them to trade at. Normally at the bottom of this run it tends to get quite choppy. As these moves often completely re-trace back to where they came from, taking up to 3 attempts with a tight stop for me is not abnormal as this is peanuts to the size of the move. If I'm hot, I'll hit it off the first attempt. If I'm not, I stop at 3 attempts as clearly I'm not doing too well that day.

Basically it is all experiential. If it were that simple to just tighten and loosen stops in a formulaic way then there would be far more winners than loosers.
 
OK, so your average win is around 24 pips, average loss around 16, and a 30 pip initial stop.

Do you have details of largest winner ?
I assume largest loser is approximately 30 pips
Do you have any idea of the average duration of these trades ?
What instrument are you trading ?

Around 120 pips largest win .30 pips max loss , most closed daily , few run 2 days .

Eur usd /gbp usd.......now employing same on dax ,e/gbp.e/yen.
 
You keep talking about these "real pros" and what they do. Is that what you imagine they do, or do you know for certain? Most of the pros I know don't even look at a damn chart.

Damn chart? You make it seem as if trading without a chart requires a trader to have Savant-like skills...but then again, maybe I do :cheesy:
 
Damn chart? You make it seem as if trading without a chart requires a trader to have Savant-like skills...but then again, maybe I do :cheesy:

So how does any New trader believe New trader , who might be a complete novice at trading .After all he has an internet handle , he could be working for a few bucket shops , spreading the propaganda for new traders to become cannon fodder with tight stops , for bucket shops.

He has not his own mind but of someone else who talk like god , but is now on the 95% heap.

Today I took a long trade on eur usd at 1.3042 stop 50 pips.Please tell how foolish it is .
 
No don't let your profits run...............please do not let your profits run...............I beg you..........don't let your profits run too much
 
GAMBLING with winning trades is ONLY way to LET profit run !
it took me 5 years to understand that ...

Well anyways my quote of above is just humor, but of course if you're in the money let your profits run. I wasn't being serious about the above statement too much :LOL:
 
GAMBLING with winning trades is ONLY way to LET profit run !
it took me 5 years to understand that ...

Trend trading is trading not gambling .My instructor told me it was not a gambling course , but a trading course.

What difference is there between trend gambling and betting on one winning horse ?Trends only happen very rarely and horses win rarely. , out 50 races , there are 450 losers and 50 winners , 90 % lose like trading trend gamblers.:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:
 
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