Iraq & Afghanistan and US & UK

[Atilla]

Oh don't be such a pessimist Split.

When we eventually concede we've lost the war in Afganistan and pull out the Taliban will take over again. Maybe Atilla could spend his retirement there, I'm sure he'd love it. From his perspective it would be a paradise.

dd

Here is another sad loss.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8361404.stm

The British army is under siege. What on earth is foot patrol going to do as we don't have enough troops on the ground to cover the vast terrain. Bloody minded stupidity of our politicians and weak bellied commanders to speak out.

This will continue until our freaking politicians maximise their expenses as long as possilbe until elections next year.

How bloody daft is that???

Stiff upper lip everyone. Let's all do the honourable thing and back the troops to stay out there (who incidentally, want to come home...)

Very sad tragic state of affairs...

 

[glyder]

....Can Queen dissolve a Parliament....Apparently she can do it.....read on...

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article6329207.ece

Hi Zambuck,
good article.
Constitutional law, at its more theoretical fringes, is fascinating And really this area of Monarch's powers, conventions etc is just a small part of the whole. Things change slowly in that sphere. But it seems to me that this is critical as it is where true power lies one day it just might come into play. ..if we had a govt that was sufficiently at odds with the people and a monarch prepared to confront them. (There is film footage of the Queen telling her PM, Heath at the time, that she is aware that as PM he is dispensible, it was kind of in jest but I thought that said a lot)
The bottom line is that noone knows the extent of the monarchs powers until they are exercised.
As the article mentions there is nothing legaly to stop the queen dissolving parliament, if she decides to do so without the PM's request. But at that point we might well enter some sort of chaos, or martial law .....either whether the govt acknowledges or refuses to acknowledge the dissolution, unless there is a quick resolution of the problem. At the very least (and very sadly) we need a govt in place to pass the annual finance act to raise taxes to keep the public services funded on an annual basis..
As I referred to earlier at the point of no legitimate govt in the UK, the Forces allegiance is directly to the Queen and country, kind of making the Queen and army still the major ultimate powers in this country. But without a govt /parliament there is no mechanism to raise tax to pay the army. So its all a bit circular ....thats the wonders of a constitution based on conventions.

 

[Splitlink]

Here is another sad loss.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8361404.stm

The British army is under siege. What on earth is foot patrol going to do as we don't have enough troops on the ground to cover the vast terrain. Bloody minded stupidity of our politicians and weak bellied commanders to speak out.

This will continue until our freaking politicians maximise their expenses as long as possilbe until elections next year.

How bloody daft is that???

Stiff upper lip everyone. Let's all do the honourable thing and back the troops to stay out there (who incidentally, want to come home...)

Very sad tragic state of affairs...

Atilla, this is the same as the financial crisis. We have to pick up the pieces and try to do better next time.

In the same way as we know that we are being screwed with the banks, etc. so we were wrong to go into Afghanistan---especially after Iraq. If that didn't teach us a lesson, nothing will. Now that we are in Afghanistan we cannot, in all decency, pull out and leave those Afghans who sided with us to their fate, especially as we know what the tactics of the Taliban are i.e. thumbs off for voting, etc.

 

[dcraig1]

Now that we are in Afghanistan we cannot, in all decency, pull out and leave those Afghans who sided with us to their fate, especially as we know what the tactics of the Taliban are i.e. thumbs off for voting, etc.

The powers that be in Afghanistan that sided with "us" (I rather not be included in the "us" thanks) are corrupt on a mind boggling scale. Bribery and corruption have been central to the intervention in Afghanistan. The whole thing is rotten to the core.

 

[Splitlink]

The powers that be in Afghanistan that sided with "us" (I rather not be included in the "us" thanks) are corrupt on a mind boggling scale. Bribery and corruption have been central to the intervention in Afghanistan. The whole thing is rotten to the core.

Some of them are. Perhaps, a lot of them are. But if the British leave the ones who are not to their fate I would be ashamed of being British.

Crikey, that's the last straw. Starting a war and then leaving them to it when the going gets rough.

 

[Atilla]

Picture below is of the Emirates stadium - the great Arsenal FC

It seats 60,000.

The UK has approx 10,000 troops in Afghanistan. Let us say it fills 20%, 1 in 5 of the seats of your average size football stadium. Now imagine those number of troops spread out accross the country?

How much of a difference is that likely to make? Not much imo.

Add the 30 to 40,000 US troops. In total even 50,000 soldiers does not fill a football stadium. Spread across a country the size of Afghanistan - I doubt it is likely to make much difference at all. So to fight wars with such limited men and resources like helicopters - covering difficult mountain terrain littered by anti alliance forces is sheer madness.

Is there any military men here who can vouch for the credibility of this strategy.

So the politicians can talk till the cows come home and MoD civilians demand millions of danger money but I say its a siege and absolute murder equivalent to the charge of the light brigade sending men out on patrols. What is the bleeding objective for goodness sake???

We don't control the area. We can enforce any policies if you don't control the area. We engage in a few fire fights and head back to base. Absolute crazy strategy.


As for starting the war... we didn't start the war the Americans did. Remember we are their allies and much to our grief they have just about ignored every advice or contribution put forward in managing the war - reconstruction and approach. This has been a US led war in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

I feel we need to re-establish the Northern Alliance - give them our full support and let them fight their own wars.

I wouldn't feel bad about leaving at all and would certainly not feel we are deserting the good people of Afghanistan. Just empowering them to truly take control of their own country and destiny...

 

[dcraig1]

I feel we need to re-establish the Northern Alliance - give them our full support and let them fight their own wars.

Ahhh yes, the oldest imperialist trick in the book. Arm 'em all to the teeth and set 'em at each others throats.

How about "we" just leave the long suffering people of Afghanistan alone. What a revolutionary idea that would be!

 

[Splitlink]

If only we would come to the conclusion that we are not the world power that we used to be. If we leave Afghanistan because we cannot sustain the losses, then we should remember it for the next time. A lot of people have suffered because we went there.


Atilla, I'm not for blaming the Americans for everything. We are big enough to make our own decisions but those decisions are made by the likes of Blair and Brown and without popular support.

 

[Atilla]

Ahhh yes, the oldest imperialist trick in the book. Arm 'em all to the teeth and set 'em at each others throats.

How about "we" just leave the long suffering people of Afghanistan alone. What a revolutionary idea that would be!

Let's apply some common sense. The savagery of the Taliban needs to be sent back to the what ever cave hole it originated from.

We can leave and provide support. It's our approach and how we tackle terrorism that is all wrong. War on Terror has been all wrong. Just as terror uses stealth we likewise need to apply intelligence and stealth at eradicating it.

 

[Trader333]

so we were wrong to go into Afghanistan---especially after Iraq.

Afghanistan was invaded over a year before Iraq.


Paul

 

[zambuck]

...Afghanistan has been in 'perpetual' invasion since Colonial times...!

....Now GB - Gordon Brown is talking about 'Glorius' retreat...!...After 'handing' over parts back to Afghanis....and paying money to Taleban...!

 

[Splitlink]

Afghanistan was invaded over a year before Iraq.


Paul

So they did, 2001. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Gumping]

Hmmmmmmmmm......

So Iraqis are getting birth defects - and presumably, this is the result of clouds of toxic dust caused by the discharge of allied weapons.

And the solution to all of this is: Let them do it all in London!!

 

[Atilla]

Hmmmmmmmmm......

So Iraqis are getting birth defects - and presumably, this is the result of clouds of toxic dust caused by the discharge of allied weapons.

And the solution to all of this is: Let them do it all in London!!

Here we go again... Presume???

I guess you believe the war is keeping our streets safe in London? Correct me if I'm wrong.


Begs the question why the war was started in Iraq in the first place?


Your logic leaves a lot to be desired...

 

[Gumping]

Errr.....no.

I was simply making a joke

 

[Atilla]

Errr.....no.

I was simply making a joke

Well that was so hillarious I fell off me chair... :whistling


Maybe it would be better appreciated in jokes section... :idea:


See you for drinks later. Hope you're coming...

 

[Gumping]

See you for drinks later. Hope you're coming...

 

[Atilla]

More Lies...

Hi guys,

You've probably all heard about the new troops surge in Afghanistan.

Reason / strategy now is - we are there for another 18 months to train their police and army.

Well this begs the question do you really need 100,000 troops their to train police and the army? What's wrong with civilian instructors?

What the heck was the strategy in the last 5-6 years?

Apparently all terrorism emenates from Afghanistan and they are there to clean it up.

You know one can't fight terrorism with the army but only intelligence.

Someone should tell the intel that the Taliban will wait 18 months with no trouble at all only to restart when it suits them.

What the West doesn't realise is that it will take at least 2 to 3 generations to train those ijuits and that should be coupled with lots of infrastructure development. Until then it is all waste and pie in the sky.


Even if we are successful and we implement a US friendly supported regime protected by Afghan police and army - how long will that regime last at what cost. 10 years, 20 years? I don't know perhaps a good guide is Latin American states.


Better strategy would have been to pull out and leave 10,000 instructors as civilians to train police, army, teachers and so forth.

Also, better way of changing mentality is to train the elite police and army here in the West like in Germany so they can taste the quality of life here as opposed to tasting the dirt in Afghanistan. They can then hopefully take back some of the better standards back home...

It is all wrong. Wrong strategy, wrong direction, wrong place. Everything is simply all wrong...

 

[Gumping]

Re: More Lies...

Better strategy would have been to pull out and leave 10,000 instructors as civilians to train police, army, teachers and so forth.

Also, better way of changing mentality is to train the elite police and army here in the West like in Germany so they can taste the quality of life here as opposed to tasting the dirt in Afghanistan. They can then hopefully take back some of the better standards back home...

A friend was involved in so0mething like this once: bring a load of bright students over from Sierra Leone with the idea that they get a taste of what life is like here and can then take it all back to Africa with them, where it will inspire them to bring about reforms when they become the next generation of leaders.

Result: they all did a runner the moment they got to England and have never been heard from since :-0

 

[dick_dastardly]

Re: More Lies...

What the West doesn't realise is that it will take at least 2 to 3 generations to train those ijuits and that should be coupled with lots of infrastructure development. Until then it is all waste and pie in the sky.

I'm all in favour of bringing democracy to Afganistan. But first, I think we should pull out and give them some time and space to themselves to evolve at their own pace. I think somewhere around 8 or 9 centuries should do it.

Then, we could give them all the help and advice they need ( if they asked us nicely that is).

dd