IG Index dispute - advice welcome!

[dowsp]

Hi,

I was a member some years ago, but I lost my log in details.
So This is my 1st post since then after rejoining.

I tried to do a search for disputes with spread bet companies. but I could not get anything to come
up under the title I searched for. ie "Spread bet company disputes". It maybe that I have not entered the details/ or worded the details correctly in the right way to obtain the results that I am searching for.

I just noticed however & just come across this thread with ref to disputes with a spread bet company.
but I can see that it has not been too active since 2011..and only the last two posts just having been made in August 2015.

I just wondered if anyone knows if there is any way to make a dispute against a Spread bet company if you disagree with their responses..(I prefer not to mention the particular company at this point..but it could also apply similarly to IG as in the past I have had some similar issues with them)

Two or three egs of recent issues that I have had...

When the market crashed on Aug 24th... their system went off line at CRITICAL Moment when the market bottomed...Phoning was out of the question when the market moved up 800 points in a few minutes... the question may be SHOULD their online system be able to handle such Market crashes.. How often I see their platforms fail at vital moments at volitile times.
This stopped anyone closing out positions or buying in at the bottom of the market..

Another issue... I attempted to sell the Wall street market at this weeks top...on the Sunday evening open...in the very first few seconds...23.00 hrs... The platform failed to show their charts price action.. but the price data on the buy and sell buttons did not appear to be altering too wildly in the opening seconds.... I tried to place 3 sell trades in the 1st minutes..

The system did not accept the trades. and I did not get filed.... after a couple of minutes the market had moved to far down for me to want to retry another entry to sell.

I called to complain. and they confirmed that I had attempted the trades..and the system did not accept them for some reason.. and they could not answer why the chart service was not showing the visual price bars. which I needed at this vital time to see what was actually happening.
This was a critical time to enter and no I did not want to be on the phone... I just wanted a system that worked when it should do..... I dont mind technical issues as long as they acknowledge and agree to accept a trade when I call to dispute ,as long as they show or have the evidence of my attempted trades..which they had.

BUT even then... they said I then had to send an email to dispute this.. and it could take upto 2 days. Meanwhile the market fell 500 points... I told them in an email I wanted to take some profit at a level reached to try to cover myself if the market recovered... and gain some profit if they would honor it.

Another issue I had ..with this comany and IG was On the 25th I had bought some Wall st ? Dow Sept 17000 and weekly call options...and the market rallied over 500 points in 2 days..
I expected a reasonable gain of at least to double my money ...

to my dismay.. these options had hardly gained at all...and made just about 50% on what Id paid.
Many a time in the past Id easily doubled my money on a 500 point move..

Yet this was during the what seemed very volitile period over a few days and they were offering very little gain on these call options.

upon querying this.. they said sometimes option volitily is what determines an options value.
and in this case this is one of those instances.and they were not valuing call options very favourably.. I suspect that
still had a bearish sentiment...but the increaes in value of the call options seemed VERY undervalued after seeing such huge market moves..

I felt rather cheated and I had this happen in the 2007 to 2009 crash..where I was overpaying for options .. seeing HUGE moves and then getting little gains... basically they can alter the Vol so much that when a market has rallied say in a few hours to a day..then they devalue the volitility..
and the value of those options show NO gain..

As this very rarely happens.. its very hard to really know the realities of what such options may be worth under such conditions.. they could be telling me anything... or maybe the market makers are just creating unrealistic valuations.

I feel I need a real expert to be able to investigate this for me..and wondered if one had such querys is there any sort of service or company/organisation that could investigate such complex issues..

also so many times have I seen my account values when holding options just litterlly disappear.. on what seem rather small moves in the market of a couple of days..and when the market comes back to simlar levels.. the values of the account has halved.

to me its all so easy for them to get away with it.. and I don't believe that are valuing these options correctly.. in such times they can make any excuse.

They also have been making huge wide spreads on the options.buy and sell prices. as much as 4 to 5 time more..on daily options and 2 or 3 times on monthly Sept options...

Yes the market has had days of huge moves.. but some days in between were more normal yet they still had such wide spreads...and well over priced options..

As I am not a trader with an account to sell options and take any advantage of that.. which is still high risk...and I think few people in spread bet companies would look to do... I think it seems rather manipulated and more or less makes it very unappealing to want to risk trading with them when they are so overpriced..

 

[igeurchfloss]

Spread betting firms such as IG Group can do what they want. It is a light touch regulated market in the UK hence so many bucketshops that have left the US have set up here.

New article on IG
http://www.financemagnates.com/forex/brokers/ig-group-to-face-uk-ombudsman-over-black-thursday-losses/#comment-18102

 

[dowsp]

Thanks for your reply and posting that link.

Ig Index have been around I believe since 1974. So they are no new company to the U.K.

I am not sure I fully understand the article from your link. the Currencies and Banks are not something that I am familiar with..along with something that happened in January that I was not aware about..but I can possibly guess what I think may have happened.

Would it be another case of their platform failing at a vital time and Clients not being able to do anything with their existing positions ..along with their changes of their so called Guaranteed stops..that I can never figure out as to why they have to be so far out. or as to why just a Stop loss is not sufficient...
especially if IGs Markets are NOT the real time markets on the actual exchanges...meaning that they can create market price valuation at times when the real markets are not even trading...such as they allow clients to buy options when
the real markets a closed such as for eg... Wall Street Closes at 22.15 hrs in the UK for 45 minutes. but you can buy certain options in that period.

so are they just a company that COULD allow clients to trade the movement in the markets and NOT ALLOW LIMIT moves in the real markets to effect clients positions if they have placed standard normal stop losses and the market say gaps through a stop loss. In the real exchanges , yes the client trading if they did not have a guaranteed stop could be subject to severe losses.. BUT does IG need to apply the same conditions to its clients..

and even in the real exchanges I am NOT really sure that I understand why a normal stop loss cannot be valid... at the end of the day a market has to pass through whatever price level that a stop loss is placed at.. I am Not really sure even how the main market exchanges really allow this. or what a gap down actually is...

when you see gaps.. sometimes that seems like the market did not trade. yet it must trade to move even when we see a difference in the bar levels.

I think that there really does need to be someone / organisation or a non IG complaints procedure to keep a close check on these companies when I read the responses to that article.

Another issue that I have with these companies is how they have standard spreads on Options all the way thru the day..even on daily options... they keep a spread the same be it at the start of a day or in the final minute...
ok on the wall st daily options for eg.. that in normal trading maybe 4 points..
between the buy and sell... If they wont alter the spread.. they should reduce the market price on the options accordingly.

when you think just how much they make on keeping those spreads the same each and every day on all the options that they offer.. depending how many clients trade them.. they have so much advantage to make such easy profits each and every day..

Spread betting firms such as IG Group can do what they want. It is a light touch regulated market in the UK hence so many bucketshops that have left the US have set up here.

New article on IG
http://www.financemagnates.com/forex/brokers/ig-group-to-face-uk-ombudsman-over-black-thursday-losses/#comment-18102

 

[dowsp]

With ref to the dispute indicated below that I had with a spread bet company some days ago.

I did get a reply...


When I tried to place my trades within the 1st minute of the open at 23.00 hrs.. The Buy and Sell buttons appeared ok and live.. and I was able to click on the Sell button to attempt to place my trades. but I got what was a Red Ticket saying trade had not been accepted or had failed...and as I explained.. this was my dispute with them as to why it never got filled.

There excuse / reason was....(Valid or invalid)...

That within the 1st few minutes of opening on the new week that starts at 23.00 hrs in the UK... that they delay a few minutes to make sure that all the markets that they have on their platform are all working ok...before they open the system up to accept the trades.

MY concern is I thought that they were supposed to be open and match with the real exchanges to be fair to its clients. or at least would honor such disputes if for some reason they had an issue with their system.

I think this was one of those occasional issues and its not what they do each new weekly open..

I will have to watch and test them carefully over the next few weeks to test them on the 1st minute by trying to place a small trade with tight stops..to see if they will be open in the 1st minute..

I don't know if other clients would think their reasoning is acceptable !

but I do know that it cost me a chance to have made a good profit..
and i am not impressed that they can not handle such issues..


Another issue that Id like to look into that I think has happened in the past..
when their system went down... and one was trying to get out of a position or take a profit...

that they have said.. if the system goes down... and you cannot get through by phone.. send an email and we will consider honoring the trade to the time the email was sent...In calmer times I think they have done this before.

but
When the Market crashed. and they could not handle the crisis and only had one person on the option desk...

I had done this with some options that I had.. but they would not honor the trades on that occasion.

What had happened was when the market crashed..a couple of days before Id bought call options.. and initially I thought they had lost more or less all their value as the crash was severe and the options went well out of the money..

but the market did have a 1000 point rally on the Dow..when it rerallied after the huge decline... I did make a initial phone call to ask why the platform had gone in active.. and could tell the person answering was under pressure and they only want to deal with larger clients in such conditions.. I asked he he new the price of my options and he did give me a last price he had noted of the top of his head but did not seem to want to check it out for sure...and I ended the call.as I did not think or realise at that time as to how the prices compared to when I had bought them and I did think they would be worth much less than what i had paid..

when such conditions occur.. the trade desk are in panic themseleves and not acting normal.. and you can tell when they will not want to deal with small clients. and they have told me they will always honor the big boys as 1st priority ..

At that time I did not recall what Id paid for the options in comparison.

and I could not check as the platform was down.

I then recalled I had also bought the same ones on IG ... and I checked the pricing that had been similar.

I then found that they were worth more than I paid and wanted to sell them... which I did on IG as their platform was working..

But the other companies platform was still not..

I tried to call again but could not get thru.... I also had to go out..

so I sent them an email to explain and asked if they would close my positions out.
around the price he quoted me ...as I thought the market was still at similar levels.

Unfortunately they would not honor my request.. or to even close me out at a price that I had paid for them.

again as their platform had not been working ... at the earlier time I could not see what they options had been being quoted at...

and later could not get thru by phone..

They had once honored me in a similar past less volitile situation..

but as the pricing and conditions at this time were quite extreme they would not do so on that occasion.

I wonder if anyone has had any similar situations..

Hi,

Another issue... I attempted to sell the Wall street market at this weeks top...on the Sunday evening open...in the very first few seconds...23.00 hrs... The platform failed to show their charts price action.. but the price data on the buy and sell buttons did not appear to be altering too wildly in the opening seconds.... I tried to place 3 sell trades in the 1st minutes..

The system did not accept the trades. and I did not get filed.... after a couple of minutes the market had moved to far down for me to want to retry another entry to sell.

I called to complain. and they confirmed that I had attempted the trades..and the system did not accept them for some reason.. and they could not answer why the chart service was not showing the visual price bars. which I needed at this vital time to see what was actually happening.
This was a critical time to enter and no I did not want to be on the phone... I just wanted a system that worked when it should do..... I dont mind technical issues as long as they acknowledge and agree to accept a trade when I call to dispute ,as long as they show or have the evidence of my attempted trades..which they had.

BUT even then... they said I then had to send an email to dispute this.. and it could take upto 2 days. Meanwhile the market fell 500 points... I told them in an email I wanted to take some profit at a level reached to try to cover myself if the market recovered... and gain some profit if they would honor it.

..

 

[igeurchfloss]

Check their execution policy statement and see if they mention this. Under FCA rules they must have a clear execution policy so that clients know how IG works for clients.

 

[dowsp]

It is worth trying, and to see what they say...Also how other spread bet firms
operate with their policies in similar situations.

Lately I am really frustrated with their pricing since the big decline in August.

They seem to push the boat on certain days and have well increased or overvalued their option prices that make it too expensive or risky to trade with them if wanting to just buy straight calls and puts if one is trying to trade by direction.

Check their execution policy statement and see if they mention this. Under FCA rules they must have a clear execution policy so that clients know how IG works for clients.

 

[igeurchfloss]

It is worth trying, and to see what they say...Also how other spread bet firms
operate with their policies in similar situations.

Lately I am really frustrated with their pricing since the big decline in August.

They seem to push the boat on certain days and have well increased or overvalued their option prices that make it too expensive or risky to trade with them if wanting to just buy straight calls and puts if one is trying to trade by direction.

So with regards to the recent (Jan 2015) incident on the EURCHF, the FOS agreed that IG acted within it's terms and conditions. So how is it that they had to change a client's price from 0.9250 to 1.0249 ? Surely if IG were right, then there is no need for any changes. http://www.iggroup.com/investor-relations/regulatory-news-service/financial-ombudsman-service-case-outcome-0

In addition, FOS only investigated one client's complain in order to make a blanket decision. Is this right as I thought their mandate involved investigating each complaint on its own merits?

 

[igeurchfloss]

In addition, if the FOS and IG agree that 1.0249 is more reflective of the underlying price, then how on earth were people being filled by brokers anywhere from 1.19 down to 1.06? This is an absolute farce and I cannot believe the regulators are turning a blind eye

 

[vinn]

Rejection of 'online' orders during 'Limit-Down'

I would like to hear from anyone who suffered when NYSE invoked 'limitdown' on 24th August 2015 and some SB companies rejected the 'buy' orders online while they accepted these via phone calls. Some firms showed market closure by greying out the line or even showing LD symbol where some others did nothing to indicate the market closure and re-activation. Phone calls were not being responded to in time due to heavy call volumes.

 

[joseph1986]

ig are criminals, plain and simple

 

[dowsp]

I am not sure about having placed say prior buy / sell orders..in extreme market declines or volitility..

I cant recall what IG did on Aug 24th 2015..
but I do recall City Index / finspreads Spread bet company making things for wall street options as Phone only on at least their daily options and maybe their monthly ones...

and yes it could had been very difficult to get thru to them..

I recall watching the market ,if I recall bottom at about 14.30 hrs Monday 24th August 15 and not seeing the Wall street option prices listed...and I did call by phone to ask ...and initially got thru to them...I enquired over where they going to put the options online as they did not show up at 14.30 hrs....and was told Id need to do place trades by phone..and they were not going to offer daily options..and I don't think they had placed the actual monthly options as they had no idea what their values were due to the severe volitility....so they were delayed in quoting any...and I don't think I even new the real value of the put options that I held..

It was a case of wait or call back later..

it was as if to suggest call back in a few minutes as we need time for things to settle and sort things out...

(should NOT be an excuse for the likes of their customers in such cases)

im not even sure at the time if the Index itself was tradable..online..
it may had greyed out also as you describe on the buy / sell button..

After the disappointment of not having been able to close out or place a option trade (To buy call options to hedge my put options at that time) I put the phone down ... then considered something else..(MAYBE TO CLOSE MY PUT OPTIONS or to hedge by Futures).and tried to call again in minutes after while the market made a bottom and the Dow rallied 800 points in about 8 minutes....and my profits on my existing longer term puts disappeared !

I was then unable to get thru to them...in any time that I had needed to do at that period..ie within say 10 minutes..or maybe more..

Overall it seemed an utter nightmare and a disgrace that their system was not upto dealing with the situation..

it seems its not !

IGs platform handles it better but I cannot recall what IG did or if I had many option postions with them at the time as I was involved trying to deal with City Index / Finspreads..

I think even IG maybe also had not quoted correctly or had said it was phone only....

The thing is both IG and CI/ FS... only quote main monthly options from Monday at 14.30 hrs......or that is what they usually will tell you...

and if there is a Holiday on a Monday they then claim to only show them at 14.30 hrs next day Tuesday for eg.

but IG sometimes will quote monthly options before 14.30 hrs..after a Holiday on the Tuesday..maybe from 8 am..as they often will be placing their daily options earlier on than they do the monthlys only they may tell you officially its all done from 14.30 hrs even the dailys..after any weekend or holiday..

They show the daily option prices for the next day after the prior days market closed.. (that is at 21.15 hrs in the UK) they then show the next days options from 21.40 hrs..that same day prior...

if it had been another day of the week that the incident occurred.....Tuesday to Friday..option prices may have been more available and accurate..to have bought or sold at the bottom of such a large decline..

IGs options stay live all week after Monday 14.30 hrs....But close on the Friday / weekend until Monday at 14.30 hrs.. so any major market moves say from SUNDAY Open at 23.00 hrs UK time.. then they do not offer any option prices on the Indexes..until 14.30 hrs.. so the market could fall 1000 points or what ever from Fridays close.then from the open Sunday night to 14.30 hrs Monday..for 15 1/2 hrs....

and any put option valued at the close of the prior Friday on a huge decline from Sunday night would see the option values severely change..and its VERY hard for them to have the correct pricing even come 14.30 hrs Monday... as it may take a while for the real exchanges to get a accurate value...sometimes I think it can take some minutes for them to get the values worked out..

That is the MAJOR PROBLEM with spread bet companies in times of extreme moves.. especially if the big boys decide to reverse the market right on the open..

Its almost impossible to react fast enough and think what to do in 8 minutes..both for us and them...

if you held several option positions in both IG / CI which ones do you close out..in such a situation..if the platform is down ...and you even mange to get thru by phone..

when I got thru to CI they were in panic mode..and they don't do as they should / could.. they will also only want to deal with the big boys positions who hold loads of options..

but when you query things with them later .. they say well you should have asked to do that at the time....(where they had even said we are only dealing with the big boys right now as good as..) that they may deny !!!

but it is understandable that they will give priority to their richer bigger clients..

I would like to hear from anyone who suffered when NYSE invoked 'limitdown' on 24th August 2015 and some SB companies rejected the 'buy' orders online while they accepted these via phone calls. Some firms showed market closure by greying out the line or even showing LD symbol where some others did nothing to indicate the market closure and re-activation. Phone calls were not being responded to in time due to heavy call volumes.

 

[dannyb2017]

This worries me as I spread bet through IG and I'm up by nearly a thousand

 

[dowsp]

What positions are you holding ? long or short positions or call or put options..?

At the moment the market conditions are not like they were last year...

I think the US stock Markets may have just topped and maybe soon to decline..if the recent high tops hold...

if the markets crash.. you then have to have some idea where and when to and have some levels or dates in mind as to when to close out your positions.

if you get caught in a similar situation as last August...which is whats known as a spike low... you have to be able to try to calculate with some high degree of accurracy in such situations to be able to take more maximum profits... otherwise just look for a level to sell that you believe is a safer bet..

 

[dannyb2017]

@ dowsp

I'm in and out usually withing a day or too, mainly long positions but a few shorts, I don't really like shorts as I always worry the price won't drop to that level again.

It's early days but it looks like I can make a regular addition income from this

 

[Hoggums]

As long as you are not scalping or taking advantage of price lag there should be no issues. I've been trading with them for 10 years with no problems and up a five figure sum with them so far this year. It's in their interest to keep the winners as I am paying constant spread to them. Just make sure you make it easy for them to hedge your positions and you'll have no worries.