If It's All About making Money?

[RUDEBOY]

Socrates, i've not even read all your thread, in fact just the first few words( i will read it all in a bit ). This, the stock market, is the financial serrenghetti the strong genes eat the weak, we are all animals after all. Our life revolves around cash, nobody on this site relies on the stock market because if that fails we can go and clean toilets. But, if you you and i just want a positive result about our actions.....just play chess on yahoo. This maybe to big a picture for some to comprehend, deep roots lead to money. Anyway, thanks for the replies. RUDEBOY!

 

[RUDEBOY]

Socrates, your the only one who did not seem deeply offended by my previous statements. I'm affraid type on a screen doesn't show emotion, after all it's just faceless waffle, let's at least be adults about it all.

 

[RUDEBOY]

1lw, how can a generalisation be three catorgories, that's under generalisation.

 

[SOCRATES]

I think it is worth reading 'Reminiscences of a stock operator' about Jesse Livermore. He was one of the best traders around over 70 years ago and even then he emphasises the importance of avoiding gurus and doing your own work.

Actually, since you mention it, Jesse Livermore learnt his lesson early. He would isolate himself in his dealing room, and lock the door and not allow anyone in. He stayed in there with his chalk boys, because this was in the days before screens, and they would mark up the prices as they came off the tape. No talking was permitted. It was in this way that he was able to concentrate properly on what was presented to him by market action for him to choose to act or abstain. This is what we all have to do, in isolation, in order to achieve perfection of technique.

Additionally, you are right in what you say about him and gurus but not exactly in the way you express. He came to the conclusion that to give away tips (the release of important infrormation) is unwise for an accomplished trader.

There are several reasons for this, and I will enumerate them here :~

1. The tip taker is never grateful for the tip given, and is unlikely to follow it properly.
( I can confirm that this is true)

2. The tip taker is unlikely to commit at the correct time as tipped.
(I can also confirm that this is true)

3. The tip taker is unlikely to exit when tipped to.
(I can confirm that this is true as well)

4. The tip taker is lilkely not to believe the tip.
(I can confirm that this is also true)

5. The tip taker is likely to not enact the tip, but to pretend to.
(I can confirm that this is also true)

6 The tip taker is likely to continue to pretend to be taking the tips but not actually.
(I can also confirm that this is also true)

7. The tip taker is likely to pretend to be following the tips, and indeed following t hem, but not in the manner originally generously and selflessly given by the giver, in that the tip taker will succumb to the temptation to verify the validity and accuracy of all the tips given until it is seen that ALARMINGLY all of them ARE CORRECT.

He will then make the mistake of telling the tip giver or his secret antics. The tip giver fromnow on ABSTAINS from offering any help or giving any constructive advice whatsoever.
(I can also confirm that this is also true)

8. The tip taker is likely to say the tip he received was his own idea.
(most probable)

9.The tip taker is likely to do the OPPOSITE just out of cussedness, but will be likely to not
admit to his own cussedness, and then blame the tip giver.
(peverse, is it not ?, but true)

10. Other reasons for not giving tips:~ envy, corrosive attitude, gossip, maliciousness etc.,

These are lessons learnt. You have to get into your own cocoon and learn these lessons.
The conclusion is that you must not be generous with your hard earned knowledge, as in the end analysis, it does not pay to do so.

And that, is what Jesse Lauriston Livermore talks about and the context in which he does.

I expect that this clarifies the matter, completely.

 

[RUDEBOY]

1lw, you border on the insane, do you honestly believe everybody is going to agree with you. you don't agree with me, so what, don't explode over some half ass dribble on your vdu, chill out. You'll trade better.

 

[Salty Gibbon]

Agree with all you say Socrates.

Apart from isolating oneself in the trading room to learn what will eventually become a uniquely personal trading technique, one also needs to frequently isolate oneself outside of trading hours in order to put in the hours of deep thinking that I believe is required to successfully implement the trading technique that is developing within that secluded trading room.

It is a pretty lonely business really.

 

[RUDEBOY]

Just off the subject, if you don't mind, how many countries have a stock exchange?

 

[Salty Gibbon]

Is this a quiz ?

 

[Salty Gibbon]

http://www.123world.com/stockexchanges/

http://www.tdd.lt/slnews/Stock_Exchanges/Stock.Exchanges.htm

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates, your the only one who did not seem deeply offended by my previous statements. I'm affraid type on a screen doesn't show emotion, after all it's just faceless waffle, let's at least be adults about it all.

Of course i am not offended by your previous statements if they are meant in the spirit of fun and amusement. Many members are under the misconception that I get offended easily.
This baffles me. Nothing could be further from the truth.

But I do sometimes get annoyed when I encounter persistent stupidity.

This is, because if you follow my posts, you will find, that as a consequence of very long experience and deep knowledge of this subject, I find it intolerable when nonsense is deliberately offered disguised as helpful. Often it is a cover for something sinister that is not in the interest of the membership.

There is too much nonsense bandied about this topic for my liking. Some of it is harmless, some of it is through lack of experience, some of it is though lack of information, some of it is offered in jest, some of it is clumsy blundering, some of it is prodding for information.

The type of nonsense that causes damage is not nonsense at all and it has to be pounced on immediately.

You will find, even if you have the private view that the language I may use may be considered confrontational by some, or even autocratic, that everything I say is to your collective and individual benefit. The error people are apt to make is to concentrate on the delivery but not on the validity of the message itself.

I am able to deliver the message because of my experience, which is considerable.

 

[Rognvald]

1lotwonder has an accurate grasp of the situation - & after such a short acquaintance with the site!

My compliments to you sir, for publishing this short (and no doubt initial) analysis/commentary on the genus T2W. I am in the process of preparing a taxonomy of trading site members which I may at some stage publish & it is always interesting to see the work of a fellow seeker. Perhaps we could collaborate on this mammoth academic undertaking?

Any implications contained this post are of course general & not aimed at any individual. Members must (& will) make up their own minds.

 

[SOCRATES]

Agree with all you say Socrates.

Apart from isolating oneself in the trading room to learn what will eventually become a uniquely personal trading technique, one also needs to frequently isolate oneself outside of trading hours in order to put in the hours of deep thinking that I believe is required to successfully implement the trading technique that is developing within that secluded trading room.

It is a pretty lonely business really.

Do you know, that in order to crack all of this, I was never satisfied that the day had been finished unless I could be satisfied that on that day I had learnt something new or improved or had been able to solve some riddle that had puzzled me, sometimes a big riddle, for weeks on end.

So at night, I would sit in the dining room of my home in Chelsea, all alone with a pad and a pencil in front of me on the table and the lights off, racking my brains for answers, often till 4 or 5 in the morning, 7 days a week.

When one came, I would instantly put on my banker's lamp and write it all down. I would then set about theoretically attempting to destroy it with multiple counter arguments. If it crumpled it was no good, and I would start the process again. It was only when something fitted perfectly that it could be right and an advance had been made.

This process went on for just over 4 years, until finally all of it was solved.

I have never met anyone capable of doing this. I am telling you because this shows that rewards do not come easily, they hve to be earnt, but not through the route most people think is the route.

Aristotle said: "when everything that is possible has been examined and does not provide the solution, that which seems improbable, even impossible, that...must be the truth ! ".

I turned his hypothesis on its head and reasoned that all of this baffled everybody, as a consequence of this not being properly explained and indeed disguised specifically to prevent everybody from succeeding, then;

"That which is improbable and certainly looks impossible, must be the ultimate truth ! "

This way of thinking has served me very well in the past. and does to this day. It is part of the key in being able to recognise when a scenario is presented in the markets, for a conclusion, the correct conclusion, to be arrived at in seconds, instead of the conclusion one would wish or hope or persuade ourselves one is seeing, or wants.

 

[SOCRATES]

Ah ! Yes. And you are right, but this lonliness and seclusion is part of the price that has to be paid, the great majority are not willing to pay it, hence they not only do not progress, but succeed in contaminating themselves with the wrong ideas.

In all of the professions, sharing of ideas is the route to progress, but curiously, not in trading.

This is a bitter clause many people are not able to accept. If they did, they could put themselves on the road to true acheivement, beyond their wildest dreams.

This does not mean one has to be unsociable, it means one has to be selectively unsociable in the pursuit of a goal. Most people cannot seem to differentiate between these two values. They persist in following the route they percieve to be the route for them, which may not necessarily be the correct one.

Then once the whole thing is cracked, then there is time to be sociable or not, as the case may be, because then the right to choose and act has been earned, and not before.

 

[RUDEBOY]

Socrates, why would i be offensive? If my type comes accross as that then that is up to the reader not myself. This is really boring....good trading all!

 

[Rognvald]

1lot
see your pm tray
cheers
Rogn

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates, why would i be offensive? If my type comes accross as that then that is up to the reader not myself. This is really boring....good trading all!

Now where do I say or imply you are offensive ? To the contrary, if you read my previous replies you will find I do not find you offensive, if I did, I would not bother to provide you with detailed answers to your questions.

When people choose to be offensive to me they get punished, I can tell you, punished severely,
because I withhold from them the information and help they truly seek and need in order for them to progress and ultimately succeed.

I cnnot see how it is you arrive at the conclusion you arrive at unless there is something I have missed, and if I miss something that offends you then I apologise, perhaps you will explain later.

 

[SOCRATES]

ditto!

i find one such trade2win self proclaimed guru very amuseing. i am sure there are others - socratese seems to have found one too.

although all this talk of not wishing to offend anyone here is very admirable, i must say i think it can also be quite self defeating.

so, rather than argue i am now happy for him to all lead you off like lambs to the slaughter with his false information and cheap, sickly charm.

if i was to question him i know he would be angry and fume and starts to cry - because i have read other threads where he does exactly this. he can not accept the truth, as he has already decided to keep his mind firmly closed, despite the decision to make this accusation on others. hahahaha!

so in response to the question 'if its all about making money, why all the arguments?' the answer is clearly as follows:

there are 3 types here -
a/ those who really know (the minority) but WILL NOT let cats out of bags
b/ those who pretend to know and think they let cats out of bags, when all they have in their bags are snakes
c/ those who do not know, make no bones about it and wish to learn.

so a sees b as corrupt and sheer vanity, while c suffers at the expense of the ego of b, as b is the only one willing to part often false information at the expense of c. arguments then come about as b is so easily offended at any questioning or contrary opinion to their own - simply because they are not confident of their own information anyway.

the whole thing becomes quite amusing to a after a while.

bit of a generalisation maybe, but this is what i see from my short time here.

My Compliments to you Sir !

Woof ! Absolutely spot on !

He may be new to the site, but here is a gentleman who truly knows his business. I am able to tell immediately, I am not just promising you all, I can tell you, so there !

 

[CityTrader]

. paul (used to) regularly receive death threats, no. these are not wannabe trade2win retail traders who act like this, but alleged professionals working in arcades or managing money for banks, funds etc. .

I've haven't read the rest of this thread, but I think this is simply put, one of the most outrageous apocryphal stories I have read on here. Registered traders. Bank directors, are calling this secretive individual, and threatening his life, because he makes money? Because he has a system? oh, FFS. I think this is one for the conspiracy theory gang... sorry mate.

 

[SOCRATES]

just thought id put this in as food for thought.

there is currently a large trader on eurex called paul rotter. some may have heard his name before.
he is a very secretive individual who rarely gives interviews, and never allows his photo to be published. he never accepts telephone calls. it is rumoured that he is based in ireland, but this has not been firmly established.

why the veil of secrecy and mystery?

well paul is a very innovative thinker and a true master. he has developed and trained other scalpers in his methods who also remain very secretive. they have to be. paul (used to) regularly receive death threats, insulting calls and some very nasty abusive behaviour from other traders who felt his methods were unfair and rendered their previous methods and livelyhoods as next to useless.

no. these are not wannabe trade2win retail traders who act like this, but alleged professionals working in arcades or managing money for banks, funds etc. so the problems being discussed here really exist across the industry as a whole - to greater and lesser extents.

so next time people wonder why they find it so hard to accumulate really useful information rather than the dross of super self guru's that you have realised simply doesnt work for you, try something different.

instead of acting as most do with bad tempers, jealousy, ego and other self defeating mechanisms, stop complaining (to the mods), and regurgitating the boring, useless facts about spread betting or what ever it may be, but actually listen rather than take offence as perhaps the other person is actually doing you a great favour. never look a gift horse in the mouth!

we all need to turn our negative vibes into positive ones and then we can see what is what and who is who .

Now there you have it, independently, out of the blue, from a completely new member.
The above is commentary you should not ignore, in fact you should read it several times until it sinks in.

The most important words are that you should "actually listen" and what I am going to add to this is that you should both collectively and individually ignore the style in which the message may or may not be delivered, and "concentrate your attention on the message" instead.

And this is if you wish to derive value from discussions in a public forum as rare as these, otherwise ignore what is presented to you here at your peril.

 

[SOCRATES]

I've haven't read the rest of this thread, but I think this is simply put, one of the most outrageous apocryphal stories I have read on here. Registered traders. Bank directors, are calling this secretive individual, and threatening his life, because he makes money? Because he has a system? oh, FFS. I think this is one for the conspiracy theory gang... sorry mate.

I am very happy for you, for you with your experience, to have been totally immune from the politics of envy and resentment against achievement. It is a cosy wooly happy world that you inhabit, lucky you !