I Stopped Using Stops

[tar]

Ok
Did you take entry at the BO of tues low (10655)? If did, thats real 'sell low/buy high' kinda trading imo.
Do you still want the trade? ie, do you still define it as a short market?
If not and you havent bailed already, what loss do you want to take?
The market has offered as low as 12255 today and is currently 11460
Where do you want to try and take your loss? Above or below that last price?

Regardless of the situation, you can always aim at a price thats in your favor

Or you could add a professional exit to the professional entry and shoot for a cool -£20k. Just stick a stop out there above that last SH at 11640! It could be a great trade!! :cheesy:

Who told you that's professional ? The account size is just 56K and the floating loss is at -20K currently so the trades size is really big . Second what was the reason for the first entry : a breakout ? then it doesn't make sense holding all the way up he could have closed his short at 10788 risking 100 points that's more than enough for a BO trade and the size should be much smaller ie risking 0.5%-1% per trade so he would have been down 250-500 quids instead of the -20K .

Note : 100 points stop = exiting at 10788 much much better than your 11255 or 11400 etc

 

[darktone]

Hi all,
screenshot of the trade attached.

Loool.
The first thing to do I reckon Is attach your account to zulu. Itll give tar something to post.

Then have a read up on notional size. At 30ppp youre swinging a now notional 340k position with a 'before you started' 75k acc, at x4.5 youre already running hot and will only get hotter if you fire any more bullets. Youre drawing down 20k atm! Thats insane! Zulu insane!!

When youre done there have a think on what role you are providing in the market selling where you did. Are you selling high / buying low? Or are you selling low / buying high? This and risk management are the only important bits on the technical side imo.

Compare what you did and are still currently doing (for me the D1 short door shut friday close), to what I did. Who had the most potential for profit in that short play? Who drew down less?

We are are both human, we can both click a mouse, so we can both place a trade. We are the essentially the same.
The only difference on a technical level is im seeking value and respecting risk. (10% of it)
On the psychological front, Im emotionally free to seek value. Most arnt, some cant, or more accurately, believe they cant. (the other 90% of it)
Theres no reason why you cant do the same.

-------------------

Re your current position:
If I was given your acc by the risk manager who just fired you. Id cut the position on a down tick. Probably when your HA candles have turned red

 

[itspossible]

He wants u to start using hard stops

 

[counter_violent]

I know what the problem is now.

I've obviously gone colour blind !

Wot yellow lines ?

 

[timsk]

Re your current position:
If I was given your acc by the risk manager who just fired you. Id cut the position on a down tick. Probably when your HA candles have turned red

Thanks for the comments chaps. I don't think there's quite as much difference of opinion as some subscribers to this thread might think based on the earlier posts. Clearly, my current short Dax trades are complete madness and a definite contender for tar's rogues gallery. I'm way over leveraged for the size of the account with no risk management in place. On the face of it, I'm just hoping and praying that price will come back down and I'll have an opportunity to get out around break even. I'm sure we all agree that this is complete madness and I deserve to blow up the account. Everyone agrees that it's absolutely essential to manage one's risk and do everything possible at all times to keep it to a minimum. The only disagreement is which are the best tools and techniques to achieve this.



As per my earlier post, I've now doubled up my shorts so I'm now net £60 p/p short. By my calculations, I'm now leveraged in the region of 18:1 which is dangerously high, yet, nowhere near as high as I could take it. The plan now is that if the market continues to rise I'll have another opportunity to enter short at an even higher level and go for broke. I have a mental stop loss which is when the account is down to the last £5k - as I want to keep it open for my 'serious' testing.

Deliberately trying to blow up an account is much harder than one might imagine whilst still keeping in the realms of what less experienced traders would consider acceptable in terms of position size, risk and leverage multiples.

darktone - one last thing. I'm slightly perplexed by the comment I've highlighted in blue? The HA candles have now turned red, so conventional wisdom suggests keeping the trade open whilst prices are falling and to cut it once the HA candles turn green - no?
Tim.

 

[Anon1]

Hi Timsk,

As you know already this is absolutely absurd the way (with respect to demo or not) that your trading is reckless. (although I understand to prove a point on demo). Regarding shorts, stops are essential as there is potentially no limit to the amount you can lose and leverage plays no part for the obvious reason of no limits to loses.

However, should the same set of trades (still reckless on account size and management) of been long - risk management could have been entered in to on a more serious note. As we all know, the maximum you can lose is only ever 100% or in other terms, the amount of leverage that is tied to the set of planned trades before the 1st trade is even entered in to. - NOTE: 100% unless your broker allows trades to go seriously off side without margin payments required before trades are shut down.

As Darktone has already stated, now your account has been brought to light and you have been fired, as I take control of the account I would simply close all trades where they stand, no attempt to trading out would take place regardless of what happens next (hindsight and all). The account would be shut and funds allocated to someone with a firmer grip on account management. (no offence of course ).

Regards,
Anon

 

[counter_violent]

Thanks for the comments chaps. I don't think there's quite as much difference of opinion as some subscribers to this thread might think based on the earlier posts. Clearly, my current short Dax trades are complete madness and a definite contender for tar's rogues gallery. I'm way over leveraged for the size of the account with no risk management in place. On the face of it, I'm just hoping and praying that price will come back down and I'll have an opportunity to get out around break even. I'm sure we all agree that this is complete madness and I deserve to blow up the account. Everyone agrees that it's absolutely essential to manage one's risk and do everything possible at all times to keep it to a minimum. The only disagreement is which are the best tools and techniques to achieve this.

View attachment 194180

As per my earlier post, I've now doubled up my shorts so I'm now net £60 p/p short. By my calculations, I'm now leveraged in the region of 18:1 which is dangerously high, yet, nowhere near as high as I could take it. The plan now is that if the market continues to rise I'll have another opportunity to enter short at an even higher level and go for broke. I have a mental stop loss which is when the account is down to the last £5k - as I want to keep it open for my 'serious' testing.

Deliberately trying to blow up an account is much harder than one might imagine whilst still keeping in the realms of what less experienced traders would consider acceptable in terms of position size, risk and leverage multiples.

darktone - one last thing. I'm slightly perplexed by the comment I've highlighted in blue? The HA candles have now turned red, so conventional wisdom suggests keeping the trade open whilst prices are falling and to cut it once the HA candles turn green - no?
Tim.

Coming back nicely.

Wasn't it -19k earlier !

 

[darktone]

Well at least I know how my post magically jumped to other thread now lol.
Sorry tim but ive done enough time in that thread. Only came here to post the Bill Still video. And look an hour + later im still here after replying. T2W = Time 2 Waste.
Back on a long T2W holiday

But that dont mean I cant yank tars chain one last time do it! :cheesy:

Who told you that's professional ?
Well you did. Buying high / selling low thats professional trading in your book right.
The account size is just 56K and the floating loss is at -20K currently so the trades size is really big .
I know, its horrendous. Zulu tarding at its best.
Second what was the reason for the first entry : a breakout ?
who in their right mind other than a retail tarder thinks that taking a BO is a good idea?
then it doesn't make sense holding all the way up
Noooo füüüücking shìt sherlock! Ive no idea who would want to do that other than the morons on Zulu whos trade results you keep posting.
he could have closed his short at 10788 risking 100 points that's more than enough for a BO trade and the size should be much smaller ie risking 0.5%-1% per trade so he would have been down 250-500 quids instead of the -20K .
Yeah! He could have done exactly that, he could he soooold the lows when it broke out, and boooought the highs when his stop went ding. Just like every other Mothafücker... Just like you!.. And then, he could have stood back and called it a GREAT TRADE and liked somebodys post!

Note : 100 points stop = exiting at 10788 much much better than your 11255 or 11400 etc
LAAAARD JEBUS!!!

Perhaps, just perhaps. Youre not quite as far removed from joe bloggs retail tarder as you like to think you are mate.

He wants u to start using hard stops

Me guess you talkem about me, if not,,, sorry.
Writing in blue is ego talking. If no understand, ask Fug. Um just taking general pìss of tar professional trader, and, less so, but still, any paleface who think um stop is good idea.

All come from same place as Profit/Lolss.
You know, Profit/Lolss, is right there, look, bottom corner of left side of page. Cant miss unless meddlesome mind make to blind to see.
Lolss!

 

[Fugazsy]

But that dont mean I cant yank tars chain one last time do it! :cheesy:


Perhaps, just perhaps. Youre not quite as far removed from joe bloggs retail tarder as you like to think you are mate.


Me guess you talkem about me, if not,,, sorry.
Writing in blue is ego talking. If no understand, ask Fug. Um just taking general pìss of tar professional trader, and, less so, but still, any paleface who think um stop is good idea.

All come from same place as Profit/Lolss.
You know, Profit/Lolss, is right there, look, bottom corner of left side of page. Cant miss unless meddlesome mind make to blind to see.
Lolss!

I know nothing, I saw nothing, I know no one, I am not here.

 

[Fugazsy]

I have to agree often having a too tight stop is not such a good idea.... best is to use the extreme of the signal bar to justify the noise......when it works quickly best is to trail the stop at the extreme of the entry bar to minimise the risk.......anyway the modality is not that important because what ever we do we are going to be proven wrong in our decision making, but reducing the risk quickly overall can bring larger profits compared to our risks.

 

[darktone]

darktone - one last thing. I'm slightly perplexed by the comment I've highlighted in blue? The HA candles have now turned red, so conventional wisdom suggests keeping the trade open whilst prices are falling and to cut it once the HA candles turn green - no?
Tim.

Tim, youve just added to shorts in the red HA candles. Your HA candles are red when prices are falling. Youre selling at lower prices mate. Youve just made your big problem into a twice as BIG PROBLEM by selling more.

The market has just offered you 11435:
Hey Tim, you wana get out of this cluster fück of a position here at 11435, its still a big one mate but its a bit better than Joe who just ate it with a stop at 11500!
You replied: No thanks mate.

Will it go lower, who knows. Even if you manage to get out lower and better off you would have done it by going from abusing risk, to reaaaally abusing risk.
If it goes higher, then tar will probably wet himself and post a Zulu chart!

------------------

If I was at youre desk with your 60ppp inherited position, and the market offered me 11435. Id have replied 'thank you very much'

------------------

Guys, all the best. Take care out there.

 

[timsk]

If I was at youre desk with your 60ppp inherited position, and the market offered me 11435. Id have replied 'thank you very much'

Hi darktone,
Thanks for the explanation and I accept the general point in terms of where (or not) to enter.

Leaving that issue to one side, the market is now falling which, in turn, means that the aggregate loss on the account is coming down. Whilst this continues, surely my best bet is to sit tight until such time I perceive (by whatever means) that the down move has run out of steam and the bulls are starting to support price?

As I understand it, you'd advocate closing some or all of the shorts and/or to start scaling in new long positions while price continues to fall? That's the part of your methodology that I find counter intuitive and I struggle to get my head around!

Tim.

 

[tar]

Mr Darktone is against covering Tim's short ( 10688 ) at 10788 because that was the high! Yes it was the high but for a short period 4 hours or so but now it is very very low - currently 11470 - . The hi/lo is just referring to the present not the future .

 

[Forexmospherian]

Hi darktone,
Thanks for the explanation and I accept the general point in terms of where (or not) to enter.

Leaving that issue to one side, the market is now falling which, in turn, means that the aggregate loss on the account is coming down. Whilst this continues, surely my best bet is to sit tight until such time I perceive (by whatever means) that the down move has run out of steam and the bulls are starting to support price?

As I understand it, you'd advocate closing some or all of the shorts and/or to start scaling in new long positions while price continues to fall? That's the part of your methodology that I find counter intuitive and I struggle to get my head around!

Tim.

Hi Tim

Here's an analogy with regards to your demo experiment

1. You have been the Greek economy

2. Darktone and C_V have been representatives of Goldman Sachs

3. Tar is Angela Merkel

Thank goodness it was only a demo (lol)

I find what Darktone has been doing similar to a high pressure salesman selling us something we don't really need or want.

Its like explaining to a drug addict the best way to do "cold turkey" and how to cope with it - or

Explaining to a convict / prison inmate the best way to cut his jail sentence down from 10 years to 4 years - or

Explaining to an obese 30 stone 40 yr old that he needs only lose 10 stone and then he will be Ok and he need not worry anymore.

All of the above are situations you just don't need to be in or don't have to face -

ie - dont take drugs - dont be a criminal - dont keep eating and become obese

Similar in trading - have stops - keep to them - take losses - and then don't worry and focus on something then that is not needed - ie getting out of a big negative for a small loss or b/e

Instead - spend all your trading time and focus on making great timed entries and understanding price action and price structure.

Regards

F

 

[fxstrategist]

So, how you guys doing trading without stops? Any consistent results?

 

[darktone]

Hows them shorts looking @timsk? Still aved around 11160?

 

[timsk]

Hows them shorts looking @timsk? Still aved around 11160?

Hi dt,
Fat fingered Tim accidentally closed a couple of them a few weeks back at 11,537 - don't ask me how - realising a total loss of circa -£14.5k. Before the Dax fell off its highs, the account was in drawdown to the tune of £45k - about 80% from its high of £56k. Currently equity is £48k, so just 4% down on the opening balance. Chart attached . . .



Needless to say, if this was a live account, I wouldn't have had the stomach to weather the storm - or the ability to manage my way out of trouble. I'd have taken a big hit long ago and be licking my wounds for a long time to come!
Tim.

 

[darktone]

Hi dt,
Fat fingered Tim accidentally closed a couple of them a few weeks back at 11,537 - don't ask me how - realising a total loss of circa -£14.5k. Before the Dax fell off its highs, the account was in drawdown to the tune of £45k - about 80% from its high of £56k. Currently equity is £48k, so just 4% down on the opening balance. Chart attached . . .

View attachment 194884

Needless to say, if this was a live account, I wouldn't have had the stomach to weather the storm - or the ability to manage my way out of trouble. I'd have taken a big hit long ago and be licking my wounds for a long time to come!
Tim.

I figured youd have drawn down a good 40k if youd left as is, but there was no need to. Im sure you realise that you wernt 'managing' as such, you were just getting bigger from an already fairly big position, holding all of em all the way up.
Theres no real reason why you couldnt have traded your way into a position near 11800, with a reasonable size, and been enjoying the falling prices.

 

[timsk]

. . . Theres no real reason why you couldnt have traded your way into a position near 11800, with a reasonable size, and been enjoying the falling prices.

Hi dt,
I dare say there's no real reason why you couldn't have traded your way into a position near 11800 (if you were in my positions that is) but, sadly, there's a long list of reasons why I couldn't do it!

Tim.

 

[darktone]

Hi dt,
I dare say there's no real reason why you couldn't have traded your way into a position near 11800 (if you were in my positions that is) but, sadly, there's a long list of reasons why I couldn't do it!

Tim.

Comon then, lets have em.

Tims list:-
1) ?