How to make a career move into trading?

[Combo]

Hi,

I've come to realise that I find the financial markets far more interesting than my current early-stage career in mol. biology, and would like to make a career move this year. I've had some (extremely minimal) experience with equities, forex and commodities and am leaning towards a trading career in the latter two.

I'm 25 and a PhD candidate (thesis writing stage) and have a BSc (Hons; 1st class). This background is obviously unrelated to the financial markets but it's fairly quantitative (biology is mostly looking at graphs and finding trends) and involves attention to detail; skills that are hopefully transferable.

I've read a couple of books on the financial markets previously (Intelligent Investor, B. Graham; One up on Wall Street, P. Lynch; Common Stocks and Uncommon Profits; P. Fisher), though these are geared more towards equities. Are there any books you would recommend to help me deepen in financial theory, particularly pertaining to forex/commodities markets? Obviously it will never make up for a lack of formal economics training, but a) I find it interesting, b) I'm hoping it would help me get a job and perhaps be more efficient at it.

What are my chances of finding a trading job in the City with this kind of background? Will I need to take any theory exams or would the employer provide this in training? Which are the best companies to apply to? I'm aware the job market isn't what it was two years ago, but should that be a deterrent?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[shadowninja]

Why forex and commodities but not equities? (That is a question an interviewer will ask.) Also, why do you prefer the financial markets to molecular biology? If you do, why did you study biology in the first place and not finance/economics?

 

[Combo]

The appeal of forex/commodities for me really is the liquidity and the potential to make a return over a shorter time period (even minutes), which demands quick wits and lends itself to a more dynamic working environment. My experience with equities (I've never day-traded them) is that it's a much slower process, and even the soundest trades based on careful fundamental analysis can still take many months, or even years, to realize a predicted change in valuation. That's appealing for private investment but as a day job doesn't seem particularly fun or rewarding.

I studied biology simply because of an interest in and affection for the subject, despite the mediocre salary (£27k-£36k progressing to £45-50k after about 20 years). The reality of a career in biology only dawned during the PhD, when it became obvious that one would have to work 1-3 year contracts for the next 5-10 years before finding a stable job (if one is lucky enough to find one amidst huge competition), and even then, scientists in stable jobs don't do science, they apply for grants and referee papers until their retirement.

It seems Goldman Sachs are interested in hiring PhD's from non-finance backgrounds. Anyone have any experience with them? From what I've read they're extremely selective about who they hire: a single candidate may have 100+ interviews for some positions.

 

[shadowninja]

Have you seen Mr Charts' thread on making money? He scalps stocks...

(Can't help on specific questions but can play devil's advocate which might help.)

 

[slik]

'It seems Goldman Sachs are interested in hiring PhD's from non-finance backgrounds. Anyone have any experience with them? From what I've read they're extremely selective about who they hire: a single candidate may have 100+ interviews for some positions' - seems a little excessiveto me, heard about 20 or so interviews for a job, but come off it, departments even as GS maybe not number 100 (would you expect everyone in your department to interview you)! I can believe 100 ppl interview for 1 position though.

Its not a great time for anyone enteing the city but I am guessing that it is probably even worse for phd's as traditionally phd's enter as quants/structurers/algorithmic desks working on modelling using monte carlo/ stoichastics etc Now these areas e.g. structured deals/prop trading are frozen in recruitment or outright closed. Also, imagine the competition- CDO's, CDS, MBS, ABS, derivative trading desks/departments have been closed in hedgies and banks, there are a lot of ppl recruited between 2003-2007 in these areas looking for jobs that a phd may well compete with.

The only area of real growth for such work is in risk management. But the real question you have to ask yourself is what do you really want to do? is it the city in general or trading in particular? if it is outright trading then I can tell you now that it is 1) very tough at the best of times to be recruited straight onto a trading desk (in which case they may not even let you trade until you have a decent amount desk experience - which believe it or not may even mean fetching coffee for a while) 2) Banks look for a very mathematical background- the typical phd is someone versed in stoichastics/advanced stats/PDE's and usually maths/econometrics/engineering/computer science on the analytical side in working on a desk and then trading if they have acumen for trading.

Aside from these academics, the only advice I can give is that employers right now have little patience in training; why train when there are lots of qualified,experienced people are out there. So the better skills you have the better. Such desirable skills are VBA and in particular writing macros in Excel (every trading model starts life as an excel spread sheet, the same is true for corporate deals in M&A etc), backtesting, monte carlo etc.Also things like Matlab, C++, Java will look great.

You sound like you do have a genuine interest in the field which is a great start and the fact that your phd is quantitive will stand you good stead. Grow this interest more by reading more books, joining uni investment clubs, even start your own spread betting account with an amount you can (and I stress this point) lose.

The best website for front office city jobs is efinancial, so post your CV on there and recruitment firms that have good trading links are Selby Jennings, Recruit Associates, Huxley Associates. If you want to approach firms directly, find a list of banks and hedgies and blitz the market- afterall, one application sets a template for as many as you want in that field.

Best of luck and I hope you don't take this post too negatively, you sound like a credible candidate with interest in the markets- these are my experiences and what I have observed over the years of working as an options trader.

 

[police]

""seems a little excessiveto me, heard about 20 or so interviews for a job, but come off it, departments even as GS maybe not number 100 "".

of course you dont have 100 interviews for one job- any job - imagine the resources required and manpower hours used on interviewing: come on, start using your brain man.

Goldmans typically do 2 or 3 interviews - the final one being in front of a panel of between 4 to 10

 

[Skill Leverage]

""seems a little excessiveto me, heard about 20 or so interviews for a job, but come off it, departments even as GS maybe not number 100 "".

of course you dont have 100 interviews for one job- any job - imagine the resources required and manpower hours used on interviewing: come on, start using your brain man.

Goldmans typically do 2 or 3 interviews - the final one being in front of a panel of between 4 to 10

He means they interview 100 people for one position, not each person having 100 interviews for the job...

 

[slik]

""seems a little excessiveto me, heard about 20 or so interviews for a job, but come off it, departments even as GS maybe not number 100 "".

of course you dont have 100 interviews for one job- any job - imagine the resources required and manpower hours used on interviewing: come on, start using your brain man.

Goldmans typically do 2 or 3 interviews - the final one being in front of a panel of between 4 to 10

thats why i suggested he meant 100 interviews for every job.... so thanks for repeating what I suggested.

Any bulge bracket firm would interview quite intensively and I have heard associates being interviewed upto 7 times a day for 2 days

 

[chinabean]

It is possible to move but at this moment, it is going to be hard. In my opinion, if you are really serious about it (which you sound like you are) then start the process yourself by enrolling for something like the CFA as at least that will show some commitment to the change and that it is not just being done on a whim. Echoing what slik said, getting your foot in the door is all about your skill-set so something like the CFA (at least Level 1) will give a decent introduction into some of the concepts that you will be encountering i.e swaps, forwards etc etc. Yes, employers will obviously train you but with things being so competitive at the mo, you will do yourself no harm at all by getting something like the CFA Level 1 on your CV. (I would sugguest your FSA exams but they become redundant after a couple of yrs and if this moribund jobs market continues for 18months you could be looking at 2 yrs before you can move).

Anyway, efinancialcareers, cityjobs and to a lesser extent totallyfinancial are the best sites....oh and steer clear of Selby Jennings.....biggest bunch of bullshizers out there!

good luck!

Also,

 

[slik]

think you are right Chinabean......Selby Jennings seem to have job postings that are too good to be true.

they are also a bunch of utter ar$e holes to deal with- like the foxtons of the recruitment world!

 

[gooseman]

yopu won't find many bank traders trading timeframes of minutes

 

[zapisy]

you can also try to find companies like this one.

OSTC

 

[germanyjamaica]

Hi,

I've come to realise that I find the financial markets far more interesting than my current early-stage career in mol. biology, and would like to make a career move this year. I've had some (extremely minimal) experience with equities, forex and commodities and am leaning towards a trading career in the latter two.

I'm 25 and a PhD candidate (thesis writing stage) and have a BSc (Hons; 1st class). This background is obviously unrelated to the financial markets but it's fairly quantitative (biology is mostly looking at graphs and finding trends) and involves attention to detail; skills that are hopefully transferable.

I've read a couple of books on the financial markets previously (Intelligent Investor, B. Graham; One up on Wall Street, P. Lynch; Common Stocks and Uncommon Profits; P. Fisher), though these are geared more towards equities. Are there any books you would recommend to help me deepen in financial theory, particularly pertaining to forex/commodities markets? Obviously it will never make up for a lack of formal economics training, but a) I find it interesting, b) I'm hoping it would help me get a job and perhaps be more efficient at it.

What are my chances of finding a trading job in the City with this kind of background? Will I need to take any theory exams or would the employer provide this in training? Which are the best companies to apply to? I'm aware the job market isn't what it was two years ago, but should that be a deterrent?

Thanks for any advice.

Do not give up your thesis, finish it up and start working in your field to gain work experience in a surely interesting field. At weekends, evenings etc. read whatever you can pull down from the net and chose one subject only, e.g. FX, rather than futures or stocks. Try to get systematic on the matter and do your homework with the indicators by checking these over different sheet, vary parameters etc. Then start trading demo account and concentrate on two pairs, the volatile EURUSD and a lesser volatile one such as USDJPY. Test everything on the demo, make all the mistakes, take high risk and see what happens, trade against the trend and see etc. Then start behaving like a disciplined person and trade as all the good teachers on the net will tell you, be disciplined etc. and find out if you can really manage low risk trading, waiting for the set-up, using the proposed stops etc.
Find that out first but under no circumstances mess with your Micro-B.
Cheers from Jamaica
KO