How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

[forker]

The only argument people appear to have is learning self control to keep emotions out the decision making process. To me this is like telling the person to go fly an F16 without knowing anything about the controls or terminology. People have to learn about the market first. People have to find their way to consistently being correct more than they are wrong. Some of you think if people cant afford a few hundred bucks then what's the point. Why would anyone want to spend even a cent if they don't need to in the learning process. They might as well take that money, wipe their @rses with it and flush it away because they will lose it all while learning guaranteed. The only difference between demo and real functionally is execution.
Why is it so important to have real execution if the person is still trying to figure out their @rse from their face in this business. There is absolutely no point in going live until these people learn how to trade first. You can't run before you crawl. Such advice can be detrimental to new traders because the pain of being wrong and physically losing money in the process can only do more harm than good. Why add additional pain to the process of learning when it isn't necessary. How can anyone master their self control if they can't trade in the fist place. Execution isn't important in the early stages of development.

 

[DionysusToast]

Forker - you can trade forex for pennies on Oanda.

Even this is MUCH better than SIM trading. You need skin in the game.

Are you saying that SIM trading is more valuable than, for example, using an Oanda account, trading live money yet only risking $20 per week?

It's just lack of knowledge that makes people think there's nothing between SIM & full size, when there is.

There is really no point in doing ANY trading SIM/small size/full size if you have no clue what you are doing.

 

[forker]

I know you can risk small amounts but what's the point of throwing money away for nothing. Skin hasn't got anything to do with learning the techniques, the market, the cycles, the language. Until new traders have a clue what's going on and how to make money I just can't see the point in throwing any money at it even If it's nothing more than the cost of lunch. When these guys have something that reflects a virtual account growth then they can make the next step and grow a skin as you call it with some real cash

 

[DionysusToast]

Trading is engaging the market, SIM trading is not.

I am not sure of your level of experience Forker or how many professional full-time traders you associate with. I personally have a small number of professional traders I keep in touch with. They are unanimous in the opinion that SIM trading is detrimental in the journey to becoming profitable.

In fact, it was a professional, full time trader that dragged me away from SIM trading despite my own protests.

You do not need to bet the farm but you DO need to engage.

SIM trading is to real trading what masturbation is to making love to a beautiful lady. Not even really relevant. It's a different game entirely. It just keeps your hands occupied.

 

[forker]

Tell me something, what has a professional traders opinion got anything to do with learning how to trade unless that opinion is of a basis that discloses the art of trading? If a professional pilot said that simulation flying doesn't teach you to fly then what's the alternative? Climb into a real plane knowing not even how to start the engine. Is that going to make you a pilot or a suicidal crazy person!
Unless a professional trader gives a new starter the knowledge of trading, simply stating that simulation trading isn't a viable canvas to learn on is ludicrous.

Simulation learning medium is used in many areas of professional and educational facets of life. In universities they teach market students on simulation trading platforms. In the scientific world it's used to work data models in physics, earth studies, and in the medical world. In IT it's used in business intelligence and by training vendors. NASA and airlines use it for pilots and the USA airforce use it for predator drone training.

DT you mentioned that live trading engages the trader with the market. How does simulation trading not do the same. The trader is exposed to the same news, the same pricing, the same execution workflow, and the same PnL although it isn't real money. Now if you are referring to engaging the market in a psychological context then I completely agree but only on the basis that the trader knows what he is doing technically. Adding the psychological factor associated to risking money and handling losses is a completely different ball game to learning how to trade. They are not the same they are different. Mark douglas talks of this in his books as do many other trading psychology mentors. You cant get to point C without passing point B. In other words you cant learn the psychological aspect without knowing how to trade first.

 

[TimYoung]

They are unanimous in the opinion that SIM trading is detrimental in the journey to becoming profitable.

Stop spreading disinformation.

You learn more and you become a worse trader?

Sorry, if by SIM trading you get worse at trading, than trading might just not be for you.

If you need real money to 'engage' I think you should be looking for a casino instead.

 

[DionysusToast]

"Tell me something, what has a professional traders opinion got anything to do with learning how to trade unless that opinion is of a basis that discloses the art of trading?"

You may be surprised to learn that most professional traders were not born profitable. Communicating with such people is key in getting an understanding of what does/doesn't work in learning to trade.

In terms of how it is different. Try it and you will feel how it is different soon enough. Nothing will have you focused on trading like having some skin in the game. SIM certainly does not.

I can understand logical arguments that 'it's the same' - but still, in reality it is very different.

 

[DionysusToast]

Stop spreading disinformation.

You learn more and you become a worse trader?

Sorry, if by SIM trading you get worse at trading, than trading might just not be for you.

If you need real money to 'engage' I think you should be looking for a casino instead.

There is no disinformation. You learn NOTHING trading SIM.

You will learn through the experience of putting a little money on the line.

As for casinos - the market is one. If you haven't figured that out, you have a very long way top go indeed.

 

[kimo'sabby]

Forget what anyone tells you about demo accounts being pointless. They are only pointless if you disregard the trading process. The only difference between a demo and real account is orders being filled. The end result of a demo account and a real account is a function of all the associated facets involved with orders being filled. That being said it isn't a problem or a show stopper in the learning process. It's a great medium to follow the trading process and live test strategies without risking any money.
A trader isn't going to make money if they haven't created a successful strategy period. Deal with the emotions associated to real money once you have a strategy that has proven over a 6 month time span.
Why learn to trade with the added stress of losing money. Finding your way to consistency is hard enough without additional stress.

Spot on. Only a wrongun would disagree with ya mate.

 

[forker]

You may be surprised to learn that most professional traders were not born profitable. Communicating with such people is key in getting an understanding of what does/doesn't work in learning to trade.

The problem with this statement is that it is missing a tangible piece of information. I totally agree with you that learning skills from a seasoned trader can only do ones education merit. However if the extent of that information is nothing more than "simulation doesn't teach one how to trade" then I have to admit I feel kind of sorry for them. Only morons spend money on education they can get for free.

In terms of how it is different. Try it and you will feel how it is different soon enough. Nothing will have you focused on trading like having some skin in the game. SIM certainly does not.

Only fools assume without context. Here you assume I don't trade live by suggesting I should try when in reality, I am nothing more than an avatar in your eyes. How could you know anything about me if we haven't spoken face to face? You make out that using simulations to learn is foolish yet it is a widely adopted learning medium in just about very industry in the world! How is trading any different?

Tell me DT, if your so called pro trader buddies tell you that the only way to be a trader is to wear a pair of budgie smugglers will you be buying your pair at primark?

 

[kimo'sabby]

Forker,

What you have to take into account mate is the fact that Dion has never traded under pressure. Dions trading has only ever been a hobby.

What i am not suggesting is that Dion can't trade, i don't know.

 

[HowardCohodas]

Random thoughts...

SIM trading is useful, but has limitations. The length of time or number of trades is insufficient to determine when it is time to move on to small money trading. Understanding the your goals and limitations of SIM trading will give you the most useful way of determining when it is time to move on. Write down the goals. When you have achieved them in SIM trading move on to small money trading.

SIM trading's relation to real trading regarding psychology is largely tied to the personality of the trader. Those who are highly competitive, especially with themselves, will feel the same emotions when SIM trading and real money trading. They will succumb to the same weaknesses and make many of the same mistakes. Those that do not treat it seriously are wasting there time. SIM is an opportunity to learn, not a certainty of learning.

Pilot training is a wonderful analogy. Those who take flying SIM seriously are easily identified by their heart rate and perspiration during simulation and their level of exhaustion afterwards. (I am a private pilot) SIM does not replace flying the real equipment, but it is a realistic, economic and effective step in the training process.

 

[kimo'sabby]

Random thoughts...

SIM trading is useful, but has limitations. The length of time or number of trades is insufficient to determine when it is time to move on to small money trading. Understanding the your goals and limitations of SIM trading will give you the most useful way of determining when it is time to move on. Write down the goals. When you have achieved them in SIM trading move on to small money trading.

SIM trading's relation to real trading regarding psychology is largely tied to the personality of the trader. Those who are highly competitive, especially with themselves, will feel the same emotions when SIM trading and real money trading. They will succumb to the same weaknesses and make many of the same mistakes. Those that do not treat it seriously are wasting there time. SIM is an opportunity to learn, not a certainty of learning.

Pilot training is a wonderful analogy. Those who take flying SIM seriously are easily identified by their heart rate and perspiration during simulation and their level of exhaustion afterwards. (I am a private pilot) SIM does not replace flying the real equipment, but it is a realistic, economic and effective step in the training process.

Howard, i totally agree with you, even SIM trading can mean pressure under some circumstances.

 

[jiggly]

By trading on a demo account for any longer than the amount of time it will take you to get comfortable with the platform, is in my opinion a waste of time and hinders progress and development.

Ultimately it is a function of ones means and trading conditions. Considering you can open a micro account and trade for real from unit sizes of one, the argument for extended virtual trading is just too cheap for my liking.

 

[kimo'sabby]

By trading on a demo account for any longer than the amount of time it will take you to get comfortable with the platform, is in my opinion a waste of time and hinders progress and development.

Ultimately it is a function of ones means and trading conditions. Considering you can open a micro account and trade for real from unit sizes of one, the argument for extended virtual trading is just too cheap for my liking.

Trader_Dante said exactly the same thing to his manager at Futex. He's a f*kin traffic warden now.

 

[TimYoung]

There is no disinformation. You learn NOTHING trading SIM.

You will learn through the experience of putting a little money on the line.

As for casinos - the market is one. If you haven't figured that out, you have a very long way top go indeed.

Your mentally is all wrong for trading... at least if you want to make money. The difference between a casino and trading is that although there is always an element of luck involved, the odds are in your favour if you know what you are doing trading whilst the odds are against you when you play in the casino.

If you think the market is a casino, then you should also believe your expected returns would be less than zero since the odds are against you. It would be better to go to a casino since you would probably enjoy it more than sitting in front of your computer screen to get your gambling fix.

It is fine to get your gambling fix from trading. I am sure there are a lot of gamblers that are interested in trading for that reason. I just think there are many more that want to learn to make money and learn to trade seriously.

 

[DionysusToast]

The problem with this statement is that it is missing a tangible piece of information. I totally agree with you that learning skills from a seasoned trader can only do ones education merit. However if the extent of that information is nothing more than "simulation doesn't teach one how to trade" then I have to admit I feel kind of sorry for them. Only morons spend money on education they can get for free.

I'm talking about people who trade for a living and who don't charge to have a chat. If most people reached out through friends, family & extended social network, I reckon most could find a number of people in the industry or running an operation from home.

Only fools assume without context. Here you assume I don't trade live by suggesting I should try when in reality, I am nothing more than an avatar in your eyes. How could you know anything about me if we haven't spoken face to face? You make out that using simulations to learn is foolish yet it is a widely adopted learning medium in just about very industry in the world! How is trading any different?

Tell me DT, if your so called pro trader buddies tell you that the only way to be a trader is to wear a pair of budgie smugglers will you be buying your pair at primark?

Very cute statements at the end there Forker.

There is a lot in the world of trading that is 'widely adopted' and yet most people lose money. The well-worn path isn't the only one to take.

Like I say - you can trade for pennies - literally risking $2 or $3 per trade. Virtually riskless trading but still more than enough to stop you from doing dumbass things. For instance, if you risk $2 or $3 per trade and end up chasing the market all day, you could potentially lose $100 and you may well end up licking your wounds over that experience. It's the loss of the money that is important there. If you did the same thing on SIM, it would mean nothing to you at all.

 

[DionysusToast]

Your mentally is all wrong for trading... at least if you want to make money. The difference between a casino and trading is that although there is always an element of luck involved, the odds are in your favour if you know what you are doing trading whilst the odds are against you when you play in the casino.

Tim - I am making money so my mentality must be OK. I don't think there's a personality type that's more suited to markets. I know a trader who is probably bi-polar with the sh1t fits he throws and I know other guys that are virtually horizontal they are so relaxed.

If you think the market is a casino, then you should also believe your expected returns would be less than zero since the odds are against you. It would be better to go to a casino since you would probably enjoy it more than sitting in front of your computer screen to get your gambling fix..

The market is a casino. There is a fixed amount of money goes into it and an almost infinite amount of people chasing that same amount of money hoping to profit handsomely. There are a lot of games played in the market to shake people out. The fact that the market is a casino is a benefit once you figure out how weak hands get shaken out and how to bet with the house.

This has nothing to do with a gambling fix. Still, I would be lying if I said there wasn't challenge and excitement in trading. There is a sense of achievement pulling money out of the market when there is such intense competition. Call this a 'fix' if you like but I do not see any need to be a 'zen like trading master' when trading. That whole concept is a myth as far as I can see.

It is fine to get your gambling fix from trading. I am sure there are a lot of gamblers that are interested in trading for that reason. I just think there are many more that want to learn to make money and learn to trade seriously.

Well - you need to meet more traders because you have an image of them that doesn't quite fit the bill in my opinion.

You can't be something you are not. You cannot take the emotion out of trading. Getting p!ssed off and getting excited is totally normal. Just the other day the missus looked at me - I'm standing behind my office chair - arms spread wide saying "up,up,up, up" as the 6E was a couple of ticks from my target. Finally there was "YES!" and she shook her head and went back to her Cher DVD. Ain't nothing wrong with this.

Why do you think those bank guys were getting busted having 3 ways with lap dancers in the back of limos? Because they are zen like trading masters? Shouldn't they have been at home reading Alexander Elder instead of snorting coke of some hookers thigh?

It's funny that we talk about how serious we need to be when the guys consitently taking our money off use are using it to buy drugs and screw lapdancers. Apparently the guys at Goldman are total animals on their nights out & they never have a losing day.

 

[HowardCohodas]

By trading on a demo account for any longer than the amount of time it will take you to get comfortable with the platform, is in my opinion a waste of time and hinders progress and development.

Ultimately it is a function of ones means and trading conditions. Considering you can open a micro account and trade for real from unit sizes of one, the argument for extended virtual trading is just too cheap for my liking.

In my experience, this is a very limited view of the benefits of SIM trading. Learning the operational tools of a new platform are certainly the first use of SIM trading. However, I also use it when I am about to start using a new strategy. Every strategy has its trading rhythms and time requirements. When these differ significantly from the strategies currently in use, I find it helpful to prototype it using SIM trading. Once I am comfortable with my ability to trade the new strategy and no surprises have popped up (unexplained losses) I move to small money trading. I may stay in small money trading for some time until my results either match my expectations or I am forced to redesign my strategy and go back to SIM trading. Only after meeting my expectations do I move to serious money for that strategy.

The trick is to understand the limits of SIM trading in evaluating a specific strategy. Even with those limits, I have frequently found SIM trading saved me from huge blunders. Worse, when I did not SIM a change of my rules for a long established strategy, I got burned with serious money. I hope I learned my lesson. We'll see.

 

[HowardCohodas]

Like I say - you can trade for pennies - literally risking $2 or $3 per trade. Virtually riskless trading but still more than enough to stop you from doing dumbass things. For instance, if you risk $2 or $3 per trade and end up chasing the market all day, you could potentially lose $100 and you may well end up licking your wounds over that experience. It's the loss of the money that is important there. If you did the same thing on SIM, it would mean nothing to you at all.

Not all trading strategies risk only pennies even with small money trading. SIM is a good value here taking cost and time into account.