FAQ How Long Does it Take to Make a Stable Income from Trading?

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T2W Bot

Staff member
Dec 19, 2004

How long is a piece of string?
The best answer anyone can come up with is somewhere between 6 months and never – which isn’t very helpful! Therefore, what this FAQ will aim to do is to outline practical steps that you can take that will help you to get from wherever you are now - to making a stable income from trading - as quickly as possible.

If you’re offered a salaried position at a proprietary trading firm (referred to as a ‘prop’shop’) or at an investment bank, you’ll be expected to make money for your employer in a matter of months. If you don’t, you’ll either be moved on to a different department or invited to find alternative employment. However, for the purposes of this FAQ, the chances are that you’re a self taught retail trader working from home. The only time limit is one that you impose yourself. The upside to this is that there’s little or no pressure, but the downside is that you could spend years of not getting anywhere and eventually give up. A lot of time will have been wasted and, quite possibly, a lot of money too. So, what’s the solution?

Set your own time limit
Unfortunately, there’s no reasonable benchmark which helps you to gauge what would be appropriate for your personal circumstances. However, what you can do is to set realistic time based goals. For example, month No 1 might be to read all the FAQs and Stickies on T2W. Month No 2 might be to set up your data feed, charting software and broker. Month No 3 to develop and test a simple trading methodology etc.

Learn fast and get experience
Knowledge is power and the best kind of knowledge is that which you acquire through your own experience. Learning to trade is a bit like learning to drive. Learner drivers read the Highway Code, but that's no substitute for getting behind the wheel of a car. The same principle applies to trading, so open an account and paper trade on a simulated platform as soon as possible. Then, when you’re ready, trade very SMALL amounts of real money.

Have a reason to trade other than just making money
The goal of consistent profitability is common to most traders. However, make sure that it’s not your only goal. If you never achieve it, how will you feel? You don’t want to devote months - or maybe even years to this endeavour - and, if it fails, to conclude it’s all been a total waste of time. Your trading journey should be rewarding in itself, even if you never achieve the goal of making a stable income from doing it.
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T2W Bot

Staff member
Dec 19, 2004

No certainties. No guarantees. Only probabilities
Trading is unlike almost all other human endeavors. Suppose that you’re tone deaf and have no natural musical ability. In spite of these shortcomings, you’re determined to learn to play the guitar. You practice many hours each day, take lessons, immerse yourself in the work of Hendrix, Page and Clapton etc., and go to as many live gigs as possible. You may never be good enough to play in a band but, eventually, almost certainly you will reach a level of proficiency that enables you to bash out a recognisable tune. Unfortunately, if we equate ‘a recognisable tune’ with consistent profitability as a trader, the same level of dedication and practice are not guaranteed to produce the same results. As a trader, you must embrace the fact that there are no certainties, only probabilities.

From six months to eternity
As a rule of thumb, if you can survive the first few years, you will probably be able to keep going for a long time without losing a lot of money. Traders refer to this as a ‘slow bleed’. Your actual trading stats may hover around breakeven, but the commissions, fees, software and data feed subscriptions all mount up over time. In this situation, either you can quit trading altogether; go back to paper trading until the trend reverses and try again, or top up your account as required and carry on in the hope that your fortunes improve. The hard fact of the matter is that regardless of the amount that you study and practice, you may never experience consistent profitability. In reality, the first real goal for most new traders is to reach a point whereby they can decide whether or not trading is ever likely to work for them. And if the likelihood is that it isn't, then the faster they can move on to pastures new, the better.

How big is the mountain?
To help you determine whether or not trading is ever likely to work for you, the first obvious step is to gauge the size of the task ahead of you. Trading, like learning to play the guitar, is a performance activity. You can’t expect to learn to trade, let alone be good at it and make consistent profits, quickly. This flies in the face of zillions of ad’s littered like confetti all over the internet, telling you that you can go from a standing start to pulling in consistent profits in a matter of weeks, sometimes days. Get real, it ain’t gonna happen! Why not? For the same reasons as you’re not going to play footy for your country at the Brazil 2014 World Cup, or star in the next Spielberg blockbuster, or perform at the Albert Hall with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. Some members will argue that trading isn’t anything like as difficult as learning to play an instrument or becoming a top sports star. And they’re right, in as much as the basic mechanics of putting on and taking off a trade aren’t difficult. But, the people on the other side of your trades are professionals who have, in many cases, put in years of study.

Know who’s on the other side of your trades
According to research undertaken by the renowned psychologist and author Bret N. Steenbarger, professionals execute around 75% of all equity and futures contracts volume. Many of these professionals are highly qualified people. Gone are the days when the city trading floors were filled with street smart barrow boys from the East End. Take a look at this book – better still, buy it: Options, Futures, and Other Derivatives by John C. Hull. At the very least, read the introduction and scroll through the 20 page Glossary of Terms and see how many you understand. You can do it for free and it should bring home the point that this isn't a 'get rich quick' business in which you can make easy money with minimal effort. The chances are, the person on the other side of your trade read this book as just one of many standard reference texts in their first year at university – at least two years before they went anywhere near a trading desk. This is who you’re up against. This is the trader selling to you or buying from you. What makes you think you’re as good – let alone better than him / her? Make no mistake, to become a successful retail trader trading your own money from home is a very tough gig. And it’s going to take time, probably years rather than months. Run a mile from anyone who tells you otherwise. Oh, one more thing: if you read this book and understand it, you’ll be a lot further down to road towards trading success than most other retail traders!

Track record
The flip side to this is the rare breed of trader who is profitable pretty much from the get go. However, if you’re in this enviable position, before you can claim to be consistently profitable and confident that your success isn’t merely good luck, a 6 month track record as a bare minimum is necessary. That’s for a day trader, if you’re a swing trader, think in terms of a year or more.

'Stable' and trading: uneasy bedfellows
In the context of trading, the word ‘stable’ isn’t one you’ll come across very often. During the back end of the 1990s, lots of traders thought they’d discovered a stable income through trading. Then, in the Spring of 2000, the dot com bubble burst and many of them lost (all) their gains and had no idea what to do next. The lesson to be learnt from this is that even if your strategy has worked well for the last six months or maybe even a year, there’s no guarantee that it will work next year or the year after that. Only when you’ve traded the full kaleidoscope of market conditions and know how well your methodologies perform in all of them – will you be able to answer this question with any real confidence. Depending upon your style of trading, realistically, this will require making consistent profits for three years or more.

For faster results . . .
Paying a coach or mentor could speed up the process. However, a word of caution here . . .
A) Good traders who are also good coaches are as rare as hen’s teeth. Teaching others how to trade is much easier than doing it oneself. So, beware of those who can talk the talk but are unable to walk the walk.
B) Although there are a few good coaches, they may not teach an approach which suits your trading style and personality.

Finding the right coach / mentor is a tricky task in itself. The obvious fast track route is to get a trading job at an investment bank or ‘prop’ firm, where they will train you and expect you to be earning money for them in a matter of months. However, this is not an option for most ‘retail’ traders working from home in their spare time. Often, they have other work and family commitments and so, for them, the journey will be somewhat slower.

What does 'stable income' mean to you?
In the context of conventional employment, it means being paid at the end of the week or month. However, there are some extremely successful traders who have weathered unprofitable months and, even, unprofitable years. Would this be acceptable to you? If you’re someone who wants to be profitable on a monthly basis as an absolute minimum and, ideally, on a weekly basis, then this will almost certainly involve becoming a day trader. Producing consistent profits on such short time frames will be difficult to achieve for swing traders and virtually impossible for position traders, taking perhaps only one trade per week. The size of your account is also important. If ‘a stable income’ means £2,500 per month, (£30k per annum) then this will be easier to achieve if you have a £100,000 account than it will if you only have a £2,500 account. Self evidently, a 2.5% monthly target is an easier and more achievable target than one of 100%.

For the purposes of this FAQ, it’s reasonable to assume that you want to go from where you’re at now to consistent profitability in the shortest time possible. Here are some ideas to ensure that the bridge to this happy state of affairs is as small as possible and traversed as easily and quickly as possible.

1. Stop trading
If you’re losing heavily, stop trading. If you’re losing consistently – albeit small amounts – stop trading. There’s no point bleeding your account dry, hoping and praying that your luck will change. Almost certainly, it won’t. Remember, to professional traders, ‘hope’ and ‘pray’ are the dirtiest of dirty four letter words!

2. Paper trading
Does your trading strategy work when trading paper money on a simulated trading platform? If it doesn’t work in this environment, it almost certainly won’t work trading with real money. When you can make money here, then upgrade to live trading using real money. Keep the amounts involved as small as you can and only increase them gradually as and when the profits allow.

3. Minimise your losses
It’s imperative that you stay in the game long enough to figure out how to achieve consistent profits and a stable income. If you’re losing a lot then, self evidently, you’ll fall by the wayside relatively quickly. It would be a shame to ‘blow up’ (i.e. lose all your money) just at the point that you figure out how the market works and a way to trade it! Learn about risk management to ensure that your losses are kept to an absolute minimum.

4. Learn how to lose!
If you can’t accept losses, trading will always be a tough gig to master. The greatest salesmen learn to accept the word ‘no’ and to overcome rejection before they become masters of their art. Similarly, all great traders have to accept some losing trades from time to time. Some of the biggest names in the business have a success ratio of only 40% or less! If you’re chasing the Holy Grail of a 100% success rate, then you’re wasting your time and will be very disappointed. That’s guaranteed!

5. Use common sense
Obviously, if trading was easy, then everyone would do it. It’s as tough as starting any other business and should be viewed just as seriously. If you wanted to become a dentist or an architect – how long would it take? Unlike these professions, there is no formal education or qualifications required to become a trader. However, don’t let that fool you into thinking that trading is a shortcut to the sorts of incomes enjoyed by these professions (and more besides) without having to put in the same amount of hard work that they have.

6. Treat it as a business
If you play at trading and don’t give it the serious attention and respect that it deserves, the impact on your finances is likely to be as unpleasant as the impact on your health if you drive at high speed with a blindfold. You’ve got to take it seriously if you’re to be successful at it. If you treat it as a hobby – or just a bit of fun – you’re unlikely to be very successful at it.

7. Have a plan
This means knowing exactly what you’re going to do and when you’re going to do it. Regardless of whether the market is trending (up or down) or chopping about in a sideways range, you need to know how to respond at all times; none more so than when you are in a trade. And, as the cliché goes; it’s better to be out of a trade wishing you were in it, than to be in it and wishing you were out of it. Cliché number two: plan the trade and trade the plan!

8. The X factor
As important as a good plan is, it’s not the ‘be all and end all’. Plans are inert and emotionless things. You need the ability to follow the plan and, on occasions, know when to deviate from it. As human beings, we have emotions which tend to dictate our actions. As we all know, the markets are driven by fear and greed. Those that profit the most are those who are in control of their emotions, usually at the expense of those who are not. Being cool, calm and collected is essential, especially for day traders who tend to have to make snap decisions based on sound judgement.

To conclude, no one can tell you how long it will take you to become consistently profitable and make a stable income from trading. All anyone can do is to relate their own personal experiences. How long this journey lasts for you is governed by your ability, determination, account size, goals, temperament and personal circumstances.
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Likes: ILikeCCI

T2W Bot

Staff member
Dec 19, 2004

If you find other threads, Articles or sites on your travels around the net that are relevant to this FAQ, please add a link to them in this thread, outlining what it is that you like about them. Thanks!

[FAQ] How Difficult is it to Trade?
This FAQ goes hand in hand with many of the points discussed in this thread's Long Answer.
How Long Did It Take You To Become A Successful Trader?
A similar thread including a poll. Please note that the poll results may just be the opinions of (some) voters - as opposed to their actual experiences!

None here? If you find a good one, let us know and we’ll add it!

None here? If you find a good one, let us know and we’ll add it!
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Well-known member
Jul 29, 2006
The process can take several months, but most will admit that becoming a consistently profitable trader took them considerably more time (more like 4 to 5 years). If you think you can do it in 6 months, most likely you'll screw up and blow your account. Patience is a key factor on the road to success. Hard work and thousands of hours studying the market trying to learn the behaviour of its participants will increase your odds of success greatly. It's not a guarantuee that you'll make it in the end, but without it you most definitely won't.
Likes: peto
Feb 15, 2008
Agreed. It takes alot of hard work and commitment. View it as learning another language completely, within which you must remain disciplined and not get greedy! Trade with your head and not with your heart, and be prepared to lose alot of money in the process.


Well-known member
Jan 27, 2006
Agreed. It takes alot of hard work and commitment. View it as learning another language completely, within which you must remain disciplined and not get greedy! Trade with your head and not with your heart, and be prepared to lose alot of money in the process.
What is the point of going into business to lose money?
Jan 6, 2007
Sounds very strange to me to

What is the point of going into business to lose money?

Seems the same as learning anything really, well thats been my experience anyway. Once you get to a certain level at trading you can make money, or carry out a learned job with a reasonable degree of competence, does not mean you will last or end up a consistant full time trader but you will be good enough to give it a go and it should not cost you the earth.

Apart from actually doing it, how would you find out if your good enough (intra day day trading)

Why carry on if your actually losing :?: whats the point your results say you should be back to demo / papertrading ...don"t they or am I missing something :?::?:

I would say if your a pretty stable person to begin with you should be able to find out if its a viable option for the cost of your living expences for the trial period............. say minimum 3 months.

I used to use some of my vacation time to dip my toe in water.......... if you can"t do it one week why try 3 months :confused:

Why would you consider going full time unless your to the point where your already profitable, reasonably consistant over a number of months part time and your 90% sure its not a risk if you can re-create what you have all ready done.

I would say its a good idea to wait till you have experienced some serious drawdown or a mistake or two and had your method and you tested some to make sure your not liable to blow up at the 1st adverse trading run etc and your pretty sure in your own mind you will cope or will no when its not working and its time to call it a day.

Think the 5 - 7 year period is probably correct to be considered consistant / profitable trader, lots of jobs and skills take that long to learn

I will tell you if I last that long, I will tell you if I don"t :)

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Well-known member
Jan 27, 2006
So people who trade are guaranteed not to lose money? In my experience, people get too jaded into thinking that trading is easy, but then get a smack in the face from reality when they make a loss.
If you know you are going to lose, it is stupid to get involved.
Nov 23, 2007
Unless you're managing OPM, you'll never get a stable income from trading - the best you can hope for is your ups + money management are enough to cover your downs.


Well-known member
Jan 1, 2004
What exactly is 'stable'?

I suppose an acceptable definition for most people would be to make enough money nearly every month. So that trading feels like a stable job or a stable business.

Speculative trading is probablistic and to have a high chance of making a profit every month means you have to do enough trades so that you come out ahead.

If you make just 1 trade a day, its unlikely that your system will have a high enough chance of making enough money nearly every month. (Lets say we are aiming to be adequately profitable for atleast 95% of all months).

But if instead you average 10 trades a day you have a much better chance of being profitable at the end of the month.

Really only those active enough (ie those making >100 trades a month) can expect to enjoy a monthly income from trading.

Long term trend traders, swing traders and even most day traders will have to tolerate longer periods of unstable income.
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Feb 15, 2008
That's a terrible hypothesis. That sort of attitude won't get you anywhere. Giving up or not getting involved because you are guaranteed to make a loss won't make you a good trader, and that sentiment is complete rubbish.

Did you stop trying to learn how to drive a car because of the distinctly high probability that you couldn't master it from the word go? Didn't you have to take several driving lessons in order to be deemed good enough to drive, let alone possess a license? If you had given up, then you would never have known whether you could drive anyway.

Traders need to learn the hard way - end of story. Whether you're full-time or just the occassional sniper/scalper. You're gonna lose money, and you're gonna have to put the hours in.

Mr. Charts

Well-known member
Sep 18, 2001
Trading for a living = self-employment = large variation in income = no stability

That does not mean it is an unstable way of earning a living, it means you must do it for a long enough period in different market conditions and then look at average income over that long period.

Newtron Bomb

Well-known member
Apr 1, 2001
What is the point of going into business to lose money?

An interesting point.. one which a lot of people dont give any thought about.

Trading is a business just like every other business in the world. Where trading is different is that most dont treat it like one, and I'm not talking about dim or stupid people some very bright individuals dont grasp this concept either.

If you were looking to start a business say on the high street, the first thing you would do no matter how big or small it would be is to write a business plan

So whats the first thing a trader should do.... guess what, write a business plan
Step up and take trading seriously, know what your going to do and when your going to do it.

going back to the high street shop comparison, you would not expect a customer every day to buy something, sometimes you get a lot of people browsing, other times you issue refunds for unwanted items.

Trading is the same, dont expect every trade to be a winner... Is a monetary loss a looser? not if you did everything you said you ere going to do according to your plan before the trade.

So can you make a stable income from trading? Of course you can, but dont expect it to be easy or happen overnight. Most business statistic tout that new start ups last about 3 years before they make or break it... funny thing, thats about the same as trading.

Have a plan
follow the plan
be consistent
Dec 12, 2007
Trading success depends on may factors , but in general it will take 3-4 years to earn a living from it. Many successful money managers today will have screwed up previously and have possibly lost plenty of money along the way, for previous employers and clients. The current market behaviour is different to that which most traders had been used to before last summer and many seasoned traders and fund managers have been caught out, some very badly.

Success depends on one's ability to adapt to different market conditions and to control one's discipline. Risk management must also be reviewed and altered to meet the changing market conditions. A strategy that might have worked like a dream 12 months ago probably would not work at all today, because market fluctuations have changed dramatically. The recent reluctance of currency pairs to retrace in a meaningful way has burnt off many experienced positional traders, while price fluctuations of the order of 2 cents a day on an old reliable pair like EUR/USD has killed off a huge volume of the intra-day merchants. Many of the 'successful' traders may have opted out in recent times and these are possibly the only ones with any hair left, or money for that matter.
Apr 30, 2008
It took me about 5 years to trade with 25% loosing trades and 75% winner.And some days it's the reverse.The most important at the beginning is to learn how not to lose....not easy...
At the beginning trading seems easy...you buy low and sell high or you short high and buy low...easy isn't.
I remenber some of my bloody trades with a lost of more $1000 ....why...allways the sames mistakes HOPE.... and during this hope phasis , your trade is going down or a little up and when it becomes too painful, you sell...but it's too late , you just have to take your loss.....and cry....!!!
Feb 15, 2004
only just beginning to make money and that has only been for the last 6 months, since then my account has grown each month but its so hard to describe the complete journey ive been on and the crap thats out there that really set me back....I hope it continues but I have personally found that having money coming in also from my businesses has taken the pressure off me having to make a living trading, this has definately been the key for me, if I had to make my income purely from trading im not too sure i could do it, but then ive never tried. Taken me 8 years to get to finally start making money and the difference is now im quite confident it will continue
Likes: firewalker99


Active member
Feb 28, 2004
only just beginning to make money and that has only been for the last 6 months, since then my account has grown each month but its so hard to describe the complete journey ive been on and the crap thats out there that really set me back....I hope it continues but I have personally found that having money coming in also from my businesses has taken the pressure off me having to make a living trading, this has definately been the key for me, if I had to make my income purely from trading im not too sure i could do it, but then ive never tried. Taken me 8 years to get to finally start making money and the difference is now im quite confident it will continue
very well done...

But trading isn't - and never will be - for everyone. I personally think that people like Darren Winters and Vince Stanzione should be given criminal convictions for the ideas that they put into people's heads.

In my history it's been nothing but a lot of pain. The pain of constantly losing, the odd high periods where things seems to be going right, then the down periods of losing one's temper and piling on the losses, then follows the more cautious stance, and the cycle goes on and on for years on end. You wouldn't wish this on your worse enemy.

I can only say that I commend those that try to help, but unfortunately those that do (and actually know what they are talking about) are constantly ridiculed and hounded out (and even I was guilty of being in the mob that lead to this).
Likes: mr.marcus
Apr 30, 2008
how to be successful faster than you know

to be successful you need to be a good loser. by this i dont mean pat yourself on the back and tell yourself no worries the next one will come. there is a right way to lose and a wrong way to lose and the fact is 90% of us humans seem to only get this after we have been beaten to a point of the light bulb moment. for some of us it can be a few months and others a few years, heck some hit the floor running successful from the start. the trick is to fully understand what the an edge is and how to use it much like a casino has an edge. how does a casino make money? from setting rules that give them the edge and taking as many slices as they can that over time they end up making good money. for us traders it is no different. once you understand that you can make a living of a win to loss ratio of as little as 2 wins to 8 losers you can make the move to being successful with practice and discipline. what most traders tend to do is break their rules or have 100 flavors of setups they follow which for most ends up being yoyo account cycles. take 100 pro traders and look what they have in common. they all dont trade outside their setups and all use 1 to a handful of setups that they have statistically tested to produce an acceptable risk\reward and win\loss ratio. 90% of traders just cant discipline themselves and fail to understand the edge. for me the edge is taking the same setup over and over again like a casino, my rules enforce me to take no trades with a risk\reward of less than 5\1. statistically i know that i have a consistancy of between 50-60% wins. i know i can make money off less but i feel better knowing i am right atleast 50% of the time. my edge comes from this win ratio mixed with a good risk\reward trades. it is this mix and repeating it over and over again that makes me earn a living, also you need to protect your profits so lock in the profit by hiding your stops in a trailing method hiding the stops behind price structures as the trade pans out. it is this simple way of working and following it like it is a matter of life and death that 90% of traders just dont get. they spend their days searching and jumping from system to system when all they need is a simple repeatable setup with the above outlined requirements. its not rocket science people but for some odd reason people think the more you lose the worse trader you are.. rubbish, just deal with them, they are accounted for in the edge which you need to define for yourself. so to answer your question, how long does it take.. well thats up to you, how fast can you acknowledge what the edge means and how fast can you enforce it over and over again. will it take years, no it will take practice but if you truly believe in this concept you will be off the floor and on your feet faster than you think.
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Oct 31, 2006
Mp -- So You Wannbe A Trader, Do Ya !

Its what i do and have done for years now, and the wolf has not yet beaten down the door !

I have been self-employed for 30 some odd years now, and yes - while the other life depended on how often THEY CALLED ME, forex is simply HOW OFTEN DO I WANT TO DO IT, so your income tends to average out more evenly !

that said, heres a post from a couple years ago --- i might as well recycle like everyone else !

YOU are not gonna like what i say, but your money will !

Trading is a business, habited by the best of the best traders whose one job is to make money for "someone" or "something", be it a bank, a broker, or individual clients handled by a money manager, AND THEY SIMPLY DONT CARE one bit about the "retail client", which happens to be YOU -- actually, they do notice you every now and again --- just as theyre doing a head fake and dropping your LONG by 100 pips, scaring the living bejesus out of you, triggering stop losses and losing you scads of money !

Headfakes are to brokers what Prada Bags and shoes are to trophy wives !

Forex (and any other form of financial trading) is a full time job for thousands, and youre just stepping on the bus that will take you to the platform that will allow you to get on the train that will take you to the town that contains the school that will allow you to attend classes in this new (to you) industry. You can get "on job training," but youre presently at a point where you dont even know what you dont know !

Theres money aplenty to be made (AND also lost) but please DO NOT HAVE THE AFFRONTERY to believe you can jump in with some EA you found and start making money, because you will end up GRAVE YARD DEAD in very short order, and your money will be gone.

There is a solution, but you wont like it either ------ PATIENCE !!!!! --- most "competent" traders feel it takes one to two years to learn enough to then become "competent" yourself, which leaves a long time yet to become "really good and lets not even BEGIN to think the word "excellent !"

as you wonder thru the scads of information out there, you will begin to assimulate some, understand what others are saying and slowly your knowledge level will increase, bringing on more desire to learn ---- like anything else, YOU HAVE TO DO THIS ---- fortunately you will, as if by osmosis, begin to learn, and as you begin to learn you will understand what you dont know, and once you understand what you dont know, you will head towards learning it and once you find it, you will look back at your above questions with much smiling !

there is NO field of endevor that one just jumps into WITHOUT TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE, and forex is no different --- for ANYONE to believe differently is simply suicide !

So spend the time to learn, demo different methodologies, and in a year you may possibly be walking the walk, talking the talk and wearing the double breasted blue blazer and white wingtips of the international banker ---- try doing it without treating it seriously, and they will take you out on a stretcher while 30 other "lemme do it coach -- I can do it !" newby traders attempt to step over your crushed body and account !

Can an EA do it for you ? Yes, No, Maybe --- at least until that horrid moment when it doesnt and you learn the meaning of margin call !

Forex is like anything else --- study, learn and practice --- then the maserati, trophy wife, 2 mil home in the upscale zip code and those wingtips !



OK, final one last thing --- IT DONT TAKE A GENIUS TO MAKE IT IN FOREX --- in the financial world, forex is one of the most "predictable" of the trading venues to those who can see its movements which are much more logical than most believe (think being RIGHT brained helps here) and can be charted and plotted with the simplest of indicators, so theres hope weedhopper, theres hope indeed !!!!!

of course, you then have to deal with being in business for yourself and whether or not you can take it, but thats for another post !

enjoy and learn well

Likes: black bear