FCA concerns on Spreadbetting

[OLdNoob]

What part of the HMRC rule don't you understand? forget it i am talking to morons

Dont be so fast to insult others, you have misunderstood the quote from HMRC all gambling Including spreadbetting is tax free even if it is your only source of income.

The 'carrying on of a trade' refers to other income linked to your trading, so if your selling courses and using your trading results as the marketing then all income becomes taxable. as you like your HMRC quotes here's another one for you.

''The fact that a taxpayer has a system by which they place their bets, or that they are sufficiently successful to earn a living by gambling does not make their activities a trade.''

 

[forker]

Dont be so fast to insult others, you have misunderstood the quote from HMRC all gambling Including spreadbetting is tax free even if it is your only source of income.

The 'carrying on of a trade' refers to other income linked to your trading, so if your selling courses and using your trading results as the marketing then all income becomes taxable. as you like your HMRC quotes here's another one for you.

''The fact that a taxpayer has a system by which they place their bets, or that they are sufficiently successful to earn a living by gambling does not make their activities a trade.''

If you are going to argue hmrc quotes agenst me you really need to be more thorough. Firstly where exactly in the legislation where it says carrying on or a trade does it refer to other incomes? It doesn't, you're adding that yourself because it isn't there.

To be clear your quote comes from hmrc manual BIM22015 where it also contains this

The taxpayer placing a spread bet is not normally carrying on a trade (see BIM22020)

Its in BIM22020 where it describes

To be taxable, the spread betting wins must come not merely from an opportunity presented by a trade, they must arise from the carrying on of that trade. Whether or not a particular spread bet is taxable will depend on the terms of the contract and the economic substance of what is done.


There is another thread where a ceo of a spread betting company has also answered this

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/spread-betting-cfds/220766-interview-highbury-fx-2.html#post2846802

So in short, you are speak a load of tosh. Do your homework and stop cherry picking to suit your opinion

 

[OLdNoob]

If you are going to argue hmrc quotes agenst me you really need to be more thorough. Firstly where exactly in the legislation where it says carrying on or a trade does it refer to other incomes? It doesn't, you're adding that yourself because it isn't there.

To be clear your quote comes from hmrc manual BIM22015 where it also contains this

The taxpayer placing a spread bet is not normally carrying on a trade (see BIM22020)

Its in BIM22020 where it describes

To be taxable, the spread betting wins must come not merely from an opportunity presented by a trade, they must arise from the carrying on of that trade. Whether or not a particular spread bet is taxable will depend on the terms of the contract and the economic substance of what is done.


There is another thread where a ceo of a spread betting company has also answered this

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/spread-betting-cfds/220766-interview-highbury-fx-2.html#post2846802

So in short, you are speak a load of tosh. Do your homework and stop cherry picking to suit your opinion

The case of Graham v Green [1925] 9TC309 concerned a man whose sole means of livelihood came from betting on horses at starting prices. Rowlatt J says at pages 313 and 314:


spreadbetting is gambling, gambling profits are not taxable even if they are the sole source of income.

I will say no more on this matter, as you say everyone can do their own homework, not trying to convince anyone here just pointing out that you shouldn't be insulting the community here because you believe your view is the only one that's right.

 

[forker]

What part of carrying of of the trade don't you understand?

 

[forker]

because you believe your view is the only one that's right.

This isn't opinion, it's fact, on the hmrc site and any accountant in this area will confirm.

 

[joseph1986]

anyone can engineer themselves out of EU/US regulations and taxes
the problem is you have to spend money in the U.S./EU like you have no money

 

[milt]

What part of carrying of of the trade don't you understand?

What part of being an imbecile don't you understand??
OldNoob has given you a completely reasonable and sensible explanation of the current situation re HMRC and spread betting.
You need to google "HMRC badges of trade" for further info if your brain can cope with that process

 

[OLdNoob]

What part of being an imbecile don't you understand??
OldNoob has given you a completely reasonable and sensible explanation of the current situation re HMRC and spread betting.
You need to google "HMRC badges of trade" for further info if your brain can cope with that process

Don't waste your time or stoop to his level of name calling Forker thinks that spread betting is a trade

 

[forker]

What part of being an imbecile don't you understand??
OldNoob has given you a completely reasonable and sensible explanation of the current situation re HMRC and spread betting.
You need to google "HMRC badges of trade" for further info if your brain can cope with that process

If you call translating continuing of a trade to having multiple income streams a reasonable answer then there is no hope for you either

 

[forker]

Don't waste your time or stoop to his level of name calling Forker thinks that spread betting is a trade

It's listed under spreadbetting on the hmrc site! Nothing I am thinking just facts.

If people can't understand english or hmrc rules then you better hope your stupidity is taken into consideration when hmrc come knocking. Given that you are able to make any money in the first place

 

[forker]

I'm done speaking to morons. Don't bother replying because I won't waste any more time on this.

 

[OLdNoob]

Whilst the definitive answer to this question cannot be given without a full understanding of the facts involved in each case, HM Revenue & Customs are very clear in their guidance manuals that ‘The fact that a taxpayer had a system by which they place their bets or that they are sufficiently successful to earn a living by gambling does not make their activities a trade’ (BIM22017).

It is also stated in HMRC guidance that the basic position is that betting and gambling (including spread betting) do not constitute trading and that in the 1925 case of Graham-v-Green ‘A bet is merely an irrational agreement that one person should pay another person on the happening of an event’ (BIM22015).

However, the HMRC guidance also states that ‘An organised activity to make profits out of the gambling public will normally amount to trading and for this they used an example of a bookmaker’ (BIM22018).

Therefore, there is not a definitive argument between the two treatments and whilst true spread betting is outside the scope of tax, if you are a market maker or have your trades organised in such a way as to not be a mere ‘punter’, it is likely that your trading activities will be seen as taxable.

http://www.accountantsfortraders.co.uk/articles/aug-2011/trading-or-spread-betting/

 

[OLdNoob]

Lets leave it at that you have your interpretation and I have mine, everyone else can make up their own mind.

 

[tomorton]

As ever with these threads, lots of strongly held and quite convincing opinion on both sides, but a continuing absence of direct experience in dealing with HMRC on this question.

 

[tar]

Hi highbury

Have you ever heard of anybody paying tax on spread betting winnings?

Thanks

yep.

the key always used to be what you declared as your occupation on the spreadbet application form. if you put down 'trader' or similar then the revenue may have considered it to be your source of income and taxed you regardless of how little you may have won.

I knew of someone about 10 years ago who spreadbet fx for a living and done very very well but paid an estate agency £25k to put him on their books as a salesman so he could declare that on the application form.

I think the key thing here is if you are not spreadbetting profitably or not making a decent wage from spreadbetting you should not put down 'trader' as your occupation. You could create some problems further down the line for yourself.

I don't think spreadbetting profits will be taxed to the mainstream any time soon simply because spreadbet losses will then have to be tax deductible. You don't need me to tell you that more money is lost spreadbetting than won.

Highbury fx is a ceo of a SB company .

 

[jkane]

simple play with non uk regulated firm that has respect