Everybody hurts...sometimes...

BSD said:
Forget winning percentages, go for great risk / reward trades you can hold for a couple of days, and you'll have more money than you know what to do with.
Click to expand...

Right on!

Long Eur/Usd @ 1.3065
Stop @ 1.306
Target 72.568

:clap:

Haven't seen you about in a long time BSD, good to have you back.
 
Am I just late catching on? Has the T2W membership always had this kind of stats based approach to trading or is this something that has been developing over the past year or two?
 
DionysusToast said:
Are you actually saying that no day traders make money ?
Click to expand...

Not saying you cannot make money daytrading, just that A: one is making life more difficult than need be as the odds are definitely against you when cutting profit potential short arbitrarily at the end of the day instead of giving a trade the time needed to really make a large move of say hundreds of points over several days instead of dozens intraday, and B: even for those that make money daytrading the overall wealth generating potential is still limited as you can't keep compounding for eventual liquidity reasons.

That's the reason why eg market wizard Marty Schwartz was a great daytrader, but failed, as he put it, in his attempt to howl with the Big Dogs like Tudor Jones whom he admired when he tried his hand at starting a hedge fund with much larger assets than he was accustomed to trading and the subsequent longer holding periods necessary there when trading hundreds instead of dozens of contracts.

That's also why say Dan Zanger (who turned 10 k into 42 million in two years) holds over days, because anything below that and he can't enter positions large enough to make it worth his while:

"Dan: I mostly use daily charts. You just can't buy 70000 shares off of a 5 minute chart. Most institutions don't use 5 minute charts, they are using 30 or 60 minute and certainly daily charts."

http://www.chartpattern.com/cf/images/new/articles/traders-world-2010.pdf
 
DionysusToast said:
OK - SERIOUS QUESTION...


Why is no-one trading the 3 hour, 42 minute, 24 seconds and 234 millisecond timeframe?

If this would be nonsense - can someone explain why it's any less valid than 1,3,5,15,30,60, 1h, 4h, daily ?

Do the markets only respect these sounding numbers?
Click to expand...

Here is my reply. Let me qualify it first..no disrespect intended to anyone. I hate flame wars. and I'm just a freakin' noob. So my answer will probably change over time.
I have one major goal and one minor goal. First goal. Free myself from the indentured servitude of a J.O.B. ( just over broke ) and second to accumulate wealth. I want to be able to take off in the middle of the day and pick my kids up from school and have lunch with them, I want to have a beer and oysters at noon on a wednesday, I want to occasionally stay out late at a pub mid-week because I feel like it. Heady, revolutionary stuff I know. In order to do that I have to become more proficient at trading, in order to trade I have to open a chart, then I have to make a descision. I have to go long or short, then I have to manage the trade to either make a profit or control loss. My broker only gives me charts in standard timeframes i.e. 1m 5m 15m ect. I lose money when i make descisions off of smaller timeframes, I make money on higher ones. So for me higher timeframe are strictly a function of profit.
Yes they are completely abitrary, they are a man made slice of market behavior. But state lines are a man made slice of geography. In my state silenced automatic weapons are legal with a permit, in my neighboring state they are not. I'm not going to buy a suppressed mini-uzi and take it to california because the california/arizona border is a man made slice of geography. And untill my skill as a trader vastly improves I ain't trading off a 5m chart!
 
BSD said:
Not saying you cannot make money daytrading, just that A: one is making life more difficult than need be as the odds are definitely against you when cutting profit potential short arbitrarily at the end of the day instead of giving a trade the time needed to really make a large move of say hundreds of points over several days instead of dozens intraday, and B: even for those that make money daytrading the overall wealth generating potential is still limited as you can't keep compounding for eventual liquidity reasons.

That's the reason why eg market wizard Marty Schwartz was a great daytrader, but failed, as he put it, in his attempt to howl with the Big Dogs like Tudor Jones whom he admired when he tried his hand at starting a hedge fund with much larger assets than he was accustomed to trading and the subsequent longer holding periods necessary there when trading hundreds instead of dozens of contracts.

That's also why say Dan Zanger (who turned 10 k into 42 million in two years) holds over days, because anything below that and he can't enter positions large enough to make it worth his while:

"Dan: I mostly use daily charts. You just can't buy 70000 shares off of a 5 minute chart. Most institutions don't use 5 minute charts, they are using 30 or 60 minute and certainly daily charts."

http://www.chartpattern.com/cf/images/new/articles/traders-world-2010.pdf
Click to expand...

BSD - are all the traders you know people in books? Serious question - don't you actually know any other succesful, real, live traders? You seem to quote a lot of people from books.

I ask this because I know day traders personally that defy what you put in your posts. How would M*** have made $18M day trading if it wasn't scaleable? This guy got his wrists slapped by a certain European exchange for manipulating a certain European market, although he was doing nothing that doesn't go on daily on the CME.He started off with money borrowed from family (and no - he's not Warren Buffet). He daytrades stocks & a certain futures market.

There are people trading the ES that build up huge positions 10-20,000 contracts just for a 4-6 tick move. These people move the market.

It's just a different arena is all. There aren't actually any limits but the game changes as you get bigger. At the tiddly level - you have to learn the games played and TA WILL fail you in that quest. At higher levels, you are playing the games. I know perhaps 5 people who are fairly big in day trading and none of them hit any ceiling.

I think it boils down to what you are good at. It's a different skill. It is not limited - but I can understand how someone would think that if they take a swing traders perspective.

It's a matter of using the right tools for the job. The tools you use in swing trading will not be the same one used in day trading despite what people will claim about the 'fractal nature of the market'
 
Lol I keep it real, ie I only quote people from the public realm so that everyone can verify what I say.

I mean this is the web after all, so pardon me, I don't believe in your friends you so conveniently come up with to bolster up your claims (nor do I believe that you yourself who claims to daytrade yet doesn't believe in technical analysis, what an oxymoron lol is net profitable!), nor, even if your made up buddy existed which he doesn't, would that make his alleged achievement be proof of anything, 18 mill ain't scaling your way to wealth, scaling your way to wealth is what the top dogs like Paul Tudor Jones did or what a Dan Zanger can accomplish with his method of holding as long as a trend exists irrespective of how long that takes.

Marty Schwatz made verifiable millions daytrading, yet failed when he tried to emulate Tudor Jones and reproduce his fortune because he was too short term.

Show me a failed trader losing his shirt and the odds are 95% that he's a daytrader. And the remaining 5% are shortchanging themselves of the opportunity of ever howling with the top dogs because they are limiting their upside profit potential for eventual liquidity reasons that simply exist in the real world.

internet-honesty.jpg


There are several hedge fund or bank traders here like Gamma Jammer etc moving real size, not a single one of those guys daytrades, because of liquidity, and because that way they would be cutting short their profits.

Go figure, and that's a real incitement for those struggling, real food for thought.
 
Theres a guy here who trades at market wizard Bruce Kovners hedge fund.

A reason why prop shop daytraders don't have a chance of a job at big money managers is because their skills are simply not scalable, simply do not translate to moving serious size, so why even bother with learning a method that limits your upside, at some point you won't be able to unlearn whats hindering you anymore.

Oh yeah, lots less screentime and stress for more money courtesy of longer holding periods to boot !
 
Well I know a good few traders, but there's only one (never professionally) that I know intimately, warts and all, and that's me.

I run a "main" account which is primarily position trading and a "play" account which is primarily day trading. The designations tell you all you need to know about where I think my bread is buttered.

Happy Christmas y'all

jon
 
BSD said:
Lol I keep it real, ie I only quote people from the public realm so that everyone can verify what I say.

I mean this is the web after all, so pardon me, I don't believe in your friends you so conveniently come up with to bolster up your claims (nor do I believe that you yourself who claims to daytrade yet doesn't believe in technical analysis, what an oxymoron lol is net profitable!), nor, even if your made up buddy existed which he doesn't, would that make his alleged achievement be proof of anything, 18 mill ain't scaling your way to wealth, scaling your way to wealth is what the top dogs like Paul Tudor Jones did or what a Dan Zanger can accomplish with his method of holding as long as a trend exists irrespective of how long that takes.

Marty Schwatz made verifiable millions daytrading, yet failed when he tried to emulate Tudor Jones and reproduce his fortune because he was too short term.

Show me a failed trader losing his shirt and the odds are 95% that he's a daytrader. And the remaining 5% are shortchanging themselves of the opportunity of ever howling with the top dogs because they are limiting their upside profit potential for eventual liquidity reasons that simply exist in the real world.

internet-honesty.jpg


There are several hedge fund or bank traders here like Gamma Jammer etc moving real size, not a single one of those guys daytrades, because of liquidity, and because that way they would be cutting short their profits.

Go figure, and that's a real incitement for those struggling, real food for thought.
Click to expand...

Actually BSD - seems like all you do is quote from books. You are quoting book sellers and saying that is better than discussing actual people you know.

Your comments on the guy with $18 million 'not scaling his way to wealth' - well perhaps you are wealthier than him yourself. Certainly, I'd be happy with a growing $18M in the bank and a hedge fund to manage. Perhaps this is lower than where you are now - but I doubt it. Of course - those guys in your books are gazillionaires. That's why they sell books :rolleyes:

I know a Forex Market Maker running an open outcry THB/USD desk - I introduced him to a number of members of this board. He moves billions but he doesn't trade his own account and I am not sure he could. He does dabble but in the 10 years I've known him, he's never talked about leaving his day job. Sure, he moves huge size - but by matching buyers & sellers - although I supposes he's imaginary too. I am sure Rathcoole can come on and discuss the imaginary beers he had with him :rolleyes:

The people I know are real - day traders with wealth, that do not touch the stuff in those books you borrow from the library.

Anyway - keep reading the books, I hope it works out well for you.
 
Toast, why don't you just keep quoting make believe buddies you conjure up out of thin air to bolster up your nonexisting arguments, while I keep quoting real life people with verifiable track records who know about moving size in the real world, some of whom are even on this board.

I have never seen you write anything even remotely worthwhile reading, which really makes sense from someone who claims to daytrade yet doesn't believe in technical analysis, which really should make putting a danger sign on all your posts mandatory as everything you post here is just seriously misleading nonsense, a classic case of attention deficit disorder coupled with a total disability to see the woods for the trees.
 
S'truth :D

1hYK3.jpg


BSD said:
Dan Zanger (who turned 10 k into 42 million in two years) holds over days, because anything below that and he can't enter positions large enough to make it worth his while:

"Dan: I mostly use daily charts. You just can't buy 70000 shares off of a 5 minute chart. Most institutions don't use 5 minute charts, they are using 30 or 60 minute and certainly daily charts."

http://www.chartpattern.com/cf/images/new/articles/traders-world-2010.pdf
Click to expand...

Couple of good reads here from real life Dan who provided Forbes with his tax statements to prove that he's the real deal:

http://www.chartpattern.com/media.html
 
Woohoo sexy Swany :clap:

You deserve a nice Xmas present I think for that.

Sexy_Christmas_Comment_04.gif
 
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