emini S&P500 vs mini Dow

[Thirteen]

mr.marcus

no - i cant see why anyone would trade unless it was their job - but just because its your job does not mean they cant enjoy it and get a buzz from it - but you guys dont seem to get it - part of trading - and a key part - is to trade to the maximum size you can - why wouldnt you do that - even if its your hobby

trading is one of the few things in life where success or failure has a direct measurment - there might be ancillary positive or negatives - but you are making money or losing it - and the more you make - if you can do that over time - the more you are doing what you do correctly

trading though is work - and i want to be paid to work

and i guage success in life by a whole lot of other sutff - just because i might talk about trading on here does not mean i am not helping the world be a better more loving sweet place!

i realise that in the UK it is not a good thing to be aspirational or successful or want to be good at what you do - and that to be second is better than being first - and that money is this dirty grubby nasty thing - but for some reason - i dont seem to have ever got that type of mentality

sounds like a real trader talking - for once!

traders trade to make money and because they enjoy it. period. are you guys telling me you trade (if you do) just to do the world a favor and provide liquidity? get real.

if you enjoy something - chances are you want to get good at it - to increase your sense of achievement. with trading how good you are is reflected in your account statement.

now if im real good at making money (trading) why on this earth would i want to limit my success by trading small size? im profitable, i can trade well, so why cut limit my achievements? this is like someone turning down a pay rise in a 9-5 job. dont matter if you like the job or not - your always gunna take the rise are you not?

i have spoken.

 

[JonnyT]

Mr Marcus,

Am I right in saying you are taking x number of pips times y number of contracts to give the 200 points per day on YM?

i.e. 5 contracts x 20 pips etc.

How many trades do you do per day?

Thanks

JT

 

[donaldduke]

Marcus,

$2.5 million is not enough for someone with your abilities you should aiming alot higher.

If you can make 200-300 pips a day trade with YM then move to ES, even if you only net 5 pts (50pips),
which should be no problem for a person with your skills you should be able to trade 200 contracts no
problems.

That would be about 50K a day or 12.5 million a year.

 

[Thirteen]

...for 13..just to add...my thinking was this..if im making $10k a day on YM do i need the xtra stress of relearning the nuances of ES....is it better to be a big fish in a small pond syndrome...this could be a pure trading decision with a more than willing nature to count $10k a day.....that was my initial point not stated clearly i guess..id be interested in youre thinking....i might need that push soon.

...whoops sorry mods...last posts were supposed to be edit not new posts

fine -

maybe i woznt clear earlier - i dont think es is the golden egg everyone thinks it is. most just trade it because everyone else does. if youre happy and making money in ym i would stick with ym. if your profitable trading 3 lots in ym consistently and you have the margin to trade 9 THEN TRADE 9. you will make more money. the only difference is that you will be pressing the 9 key not the 3 key, and the 3 key not the 1 key. your profitability will be much better and you know it. if youre feeling chicken about this then do it gradually. trade 6 lots veery other trade then 6 all the time and 9 every other - something like that - you know it makes sense

well done on the trade mgt. i dont know much about how your doing it - but from what you said - it sounds like you know more than most here.

i have spoken

 

[stevet]

this is definetly heading to the la la land - white coat time me thinks

 

[stevet]

yep

 

[jsd]

hmmm stevet i understand your frustration when looking at others point of view, but i simply picked up on your belief that you are naturally informing other traders that they "would want to" increase the maximum size that they could, else they aint "mastering the subjective art of trading" if i mis-understood, then my error.

traders new or old reading discuss or look at subtle points of discussion. This is a positive which can lead to learning, but only if you approach it with an open mind. I see your point innocent as you may of tossed it into the forum can act like a ripple on the pond, small inner circle which by extension leads to ever expanding bigger circles. A bit like a trading philosophy relating to scaling up contracts, to reach masterdom. I read it no other way.

Poeple have their own psych filters churning away and will filter out beliefs which are anti "their belief system" however less experienced or the psychologically unaware may well let in comments such as the ones you put forward, they could or could not be influenced to do as you say and feel the need to "trade as much as they could, because of course they would ? want to . wouldn't they "?

psychlogically aware individuals may well objectively look at their beliefs and suspend them , to look at new points or different points of opinion. This "state of mind" is then "open to learn" Using this awareness to objectively examine new, uneasy points maybe that counter their beliefs to that point in time. This makes them free to use, if they choose, new information they previously "shut their minds to " .

And finally yes i do understand your need to trade size to the max that the market allows to reach the status of trading master belief.
how has that belief formed for you ?
I'm genuinely interested in how beliefs are formed and then defended to the hilt.

all the above simply leads to me saying hmmmm I disagree with your points, heres my thinking behind it. Discussion with open minds leads to better discussion and a true culture of oppurtunistic learning.

to all

you do or do not need to trade the max size that a market allows .

you do or do not know when enough is enough. yet a master would. ?

its o.k. for one to hold different opinions in a room full of majority belief. But be open.

fulfilment is a state of mind, trading is a state of mind, life is a state of mind, dont keep it closed.

Jd.

 

[stevet]

jsd

you are looking very deeply into what is very very simple

if you are going to trade to make money - you trade the maximum size you can relative to what the market will allow you to get into and out of - both relative to its volatility and the number of contracts on offer and the number you feel will be available when you want to exit

that is a fundamental part of trading and has zip all to do with anything apart from making bucks and not losing bucks

 

[jsd]

I know stevet I do look at things very deeply. and you get to understand the pure simpleness of the matter.

But from the start when looking at trading the question is "how do you make money trading" answer BLASH "buy low and sell high" simplicity aint good enough.

I realise the modern yardstick for measuring any success is the dollar, but trading risk relative to accounts, and trading objectives is ultimately the end destination. It so happens that money is the by-product of trading risk.

jd

 

[stevet]

i guess i am not putting this point over - but heres another go - if someone makes a larger profit than someone else - why do you assume that they have taken on more risk - the fact is that the traders who make the most - take on the least risk - otherwise they would not be making the most profit

but at the same time - when i talk about trading - i am talking about someone who trades over multiple years and is consistently profitable - and size is a very basic and important method of controlling risk - if you dont vary your trade size - you are not controlling risk - since you are assuminng that all trades and opportunity for profit are equeal - of course - the most important control is Zero, but that does not mean it is not imperative to raise and lower trade size in relation to the profit opportunity of each trade

getting learner traders to trade at a higher size, once they get comforable with making small profits after a lot of pain of learning - is real difficult - but it has to be emphasised that even if you are making small profits trading one size - over time you will end up losing

 

[cj12]

jonny T

im hitting about 15-20 positions a day most days...plus now 1-3 swingish style trades on a spread bet account.

i play 3 contracts with each position on entry.the first 2 contracts allow me to let the 3rd flourish.if you take it on my third contract,which is allowed to run the full course of the move....im making about 120-150 a day currently....on 3 contracts it averages about 80 over the day.hope this helps.now wheres cj when i need him.i have sufficient capital to have increased my positions safely to 9,im sticking to multiples of 3 as i understand my system in these terms.but sometimes youre head needs to be allowed to catch up with youre wait of financial progress.i shall post a chart of entries and exits soon but no doubt expect the usual doubters.

cheers mark j

Im still around Marcus

300 TO 400 points a day,Sorry i still dont buy it,There nobody out there who is making this. But you are more than welcome to prove me wrong, but I guess you will shy away. .


CJ

 

[Remiraz]

Anyone still interested in discussing abt ES vs NQ vs YM?
I'm considering NQ vs YM but the volume in YM seems lacking.

 

[cj12]

To Remiaz

YM verses ES minis. First lets say you are paying $10.00 r/t with a UK comany.you would need 2 points move to cover cost trading at $5 a point.

But the s&p mini the commission is the same $10 r/t but it moves in 0.25 at 12.50 a point so you would only need. 0.25 move to cover cost.

So maybe ES is cheaper to trade. But if you get a USA broker the cost is a lot lower.again

 

[Remiraz]

To Remiaz

YM verses ES minis. First lets say you are paying $10.00 r/t with a UK comany.you would need 2 points move to cover cost trading at $5 a point.

But the s&p mini the commission is the same $10 r/t but it moves in 0.25 at 12.50 a point so you would only need. 0.25 move to cover cost.

So maybe ES is cheaper to trade. But if you get a USA broker the cost is a lot lower.again

Yes I'm paying US$4.14 rd turn on YM and US$4.80 with IB.
Not much difference there.

YM spread is 1 tick. So I still need 2 pts move to cover costs.
ES spread is 1 tick too. Which means 2 tick move to cover cost again lol.

Hmmm...YM seems to be a better choice right now. I wonder if the low volume affects me if I just do 1-2 contracts? What about 5-10 contracts?

 

[cj12]

Remiaz

I still think the s&p is better value over the Dow to trade based on the commission being the same, You get $12.50 a move compered to $5.00 a move on the Dow

CJ

 

[Remiraz]

Remiaz

I still think the s&p is better value over the Dow to trade based on the commission being the same, You get $12.50 a move compered to $5.00 a move on the Dow

CJ

ES and YM basically have the same moves. (well roughly)
But moves on the YM is about 7 times that of ES.

1 pt move on ES ($50) usually is 7 pts on YM ($35).
Considering that...ES has better value.

NQ move is abt 2.2 times of ES's. ($44)
ES still wins.

Hmmm...thats a good point.

 

[JonnyT]

No its not.

It depends on size and strategy.

You might have a strategy that works better on YM so why not trade 5 contracts...

Obviously when you need to do big size then ES is the beast you need to tame.

JonnyT

 

[Remiraz]

No its not.

It depends on size and strategy.

You might have a strategy that works better on YM so why not trade 5 contracts...

Obviously when you need to do big size then ES is the beast you need to tame.

JonnyT

Yes, maybe i'll go ER2 and NQ for bigger size.

thanks.

 

[Les Carlin]

I always get my butt kicked big-time when trading ES, and much less of a kicking when I trade YM (and get it wrong), and I know of at least one other trader who frequents these boards who seems to suffer the same fate.

I've been following this thread with some interest. I trade ES exclusively, but in doing so also belong to a chat room in which its obligatory to post one's trades. The guys there trade ES, YM, ER2, NQ and a few other instruments. The experienced people seem quite able to make good money from any/each of these. For good measure, some people trade more than one instrument, switching between them according to when one their signals triggers a trade setup.

It seems to me a more intelligent approach, rather than be wedded to an idea one has, that a particular instrument is better or worse. For myself, ES has been a major training ground, however i can see the day when i will take trades in any instrument that meets my entry criteria. For the record, i do not share the view that ES is somehow a difficult or impossible market to trade. I think such statements more reflect the expertise or experience of the person making them.

While suggesting the above as a view to take, i would also pay respect to the notion of sticking with one particular instrument while one is still learning, or developing/researching strategies for trading