Does it really take 10000 hours to learn to trade?

[N Rothschild]

the other big thing is trade size..even with x amount of experience..you go from trading a few 100 quid to a few 100 grand a clip..****s with your head. never underestimate moneys ability to make you do stupid **** trading

 

[Bint_Crusher]

Takes no time at all, pm me and I will teach you in an evening down the pub.

 

[FUTEX]

For most people, bearing in mind there are always exceptions, if you cannot do it after a full time year of trying, then find a new career choice or hobby. Experience at Futex says about 10 per cent of what have already been high calibre potential can trade profitably from day one, however, most people take 3 to 6 months from a standing start.

 

[N Rothschild]

out of interest are you one of the stressful traders at futex or a pr man?

 

[FUTEX]

I trade . Everyone, except the secretary, the receptionist, and the tech support, trade at Futex. All Directors, all trainers, all managers, do trade at Futex. Thats why we know what we are talking about.....except when we get it wrong..... LOL

 

[N Rothschild]

what do you trade?

 

[FUTEX]

Index Futures, Bonds, Currencies, and others based on discussions with our analyst form time to time

 

[the hare]

For most people, bearing in mind there are always exceptions, if you cannot do it after a full time year of trying, then find a new career choice or hobby. Experience at Futex says about 10 per cent of what have already been high calibre potential can trade profitably from day one, however, most people take 3 to 6 months from a standing start.

With all due respect, those figures are quite meaningless without a great deal more information. Take any bunch of people, impose some basic rules to prevent deliberate sabotage and you'll pretty much get a normal distribution in returns. It therefore comes as hardly any surprise that you'll have a small number who are profitable from day one (balanced by an equally small number at the opposite end of the distribution who do appallingly badly) The low transaction costs available by trading through a firm such as yours actually makes it even more likely that people will do well over the short term.

Even using the phrase "trading profitably" is a bit of a non starter, what does that actually mean ?, I assume it means achieving a reasonably consistent equity curve with a positive slope, with drawdowns within some agreed limits, rather than just a positive account balance, and I suspect a prop firm would have a far tighter definition.

I'd be stunned if you can teach this stuff to people in 3 months, and I'm not even sure why you'd even need to or want to.

 

[VielGeld]

the other big thing is trade size..even with x amount of experience..you go from trading a few 100 quid to a few 100 grand a clip..****s with your head. never underestimate moneys ability to make you do stupid **** trading

This is why I trade with my P/L out of sight and out of mind on a different screen from the one I'm using.

I set my initial $/pip position size, then block the running total as much as possible. That way, the only thing I'm focusing on is the chart in front of me, and I can make better decisions than going "whoa! I'm down that much already? Get out! Get out!", when the position is doing just fine on its own.

I know from experience just how much setting a new, higher $/pip rate can really make you panic, lol. It's like going from your '89 station wagon to the newest Lambo with no exp. with the latter. **** goes fast.

 

[MajorDutch]

I'd be stunned if you can teach this stuff to people in 3 months, and I'm not even sure why you'd even need to or want to.

I assume this is a rhetorical question.

 

[grass_hopper]

agree. take a trade that goes +30 points into profit. now consider how you would manage the trade whilst on a demo/chump change account and compare this to how you would manage the trade using a $100,000 account. with the former you are more likely to let it run and hope for a runner, with the latter are you going to be able to watch $1000s disappear form your account if it comes back on you? I think demo is good for learning the basics and proving to yourself that you can be profitable.

It's all in the mindset. I treat my demo account as if it was real money and it feels pretty real too. When I started 3 months ago I quickly re-discovered my previous failures (emotional trading, revenge, not placing stops, etc.). I did feel my losses. I stepped back and adjusted. I started with stops - every trade I make now has a predefined stop level before it gets executed. Next challenge is letting my winners run. Right now I cut them off too earlier.

I am not sure that live micro account would be a good idea for me personally - size matters. For example, some option strategies that I currently use would not work on a micro account. Commissions is another factor. I can justify selling 1 point OTM credit spread for .30 profit on 10 contracts ($285 profit vs $715 loss) but on 1 contract that would be $15 profit vs $85 loss.

 

[debrox]

You guys are pretty weird at trading since you are hinting the amount of money on the line changes things. I don't care about money, to be honest. I even donated $8k of my scholarship money while in college, leaving me only $2k. I did it, because it was all I needed.

Now, with all that said, I will sometimes feel bad after many bad trades or even a single bad trade. Or during a downturn in my equity curve. It's because I'm wrong, and my pride is hurt. It has nothing to do with the money. This is just a game or tournament to see who is better, % returns (and other statistics) are the measurement of success in it. I want to be right and succeed.

I was reading some guy talking about $/pip ratio or something, that is what sparked all of this. When I trade, I only look at the pips. It is the most incontrovertible measure, making for consistent thinking. All you need is it and your current leverage.

 

[grass_hopper]

This is a question of character. I had to trade for money right from the start. I don't believe that losing paper trades makes you sick enough. You have to not sleep at night to, really, appreciate what is likely to happen if you keep on losing. Like losing your house, going bankrupt and getting divorced, for instance.
....

I can assure you that my sense of loss is as real as it gets. For example, I shorted 200 shares of VXX @ 48 right before Thanksgiving. Small position for a $100K paper account. It went up to 49 after the holiday and I spent entire weekend thinking about how wrong I was and what to do next. Did not lose sleep but was pretty close to.

 

[grass_hopper]

The sad truth here is this.

Most traders would probably do much better by simply picking a target price where they can reasonably expect it to be hit, set a limit order and then walk away. Where it all goes wrong for them is, they impose their own conditions like, time constraints, stops, meaningless technical rules which maybe flawed etc. Given that there are many things that can go wrong on each independent trade, then losing money is more likely than not to happen.

Interesting idea... So, you're saying: "Forget rules, stops, etc. Just buy a stock on the uptrend (or short in a downtrend) and set a sell limit at the target price"
Correct?

 

[grass_hopper]

You guys are pretty weird at trading since you are hinting the amount of money on the line changes things. I don't care about money, to be honest. I even donated $8k of my scholarship money while in college, leaving me only $2k. I did it, because it was all I needed.

Now, with all that said, I will sometimes feel bad after many bad trades or even a single bad trade. Or during a downturn in my equity curve. It's because I'm wrong, and my pride is hurt. It has nothing to do with the money. This is just a game or tournament to see who is better, % returns (and other statistics) are the measurement of success in it. I want to be right and succeed.

I was reading some guy talking about $/pip ratio or something, that is what sparked all of this. When I trade, I only look at the pips. It is the most incontrovertible measure, making for consistent thinking. All you need is it and your current leverage.

I actually feel exactly the same way about good vs bad trades (pride vs sadness). Even more, I may be net short on my demo account while the market cooperates and goes down as I expected, so I feel good about my paper gain. At the same time my real 401k account loses real money and I don't even think about it! Which account is real and which is demo?

 

[VielGeld]

You guys are pretty weird at trading since you are hinting the amount of money on the line changes things. I don't care about money, to be honest. I even donated $8k of my scholarship money while in college, leaving me only $2k. I did it, because it was all I needed.

If you ever become a millionaire, can I have your money?

 

[DionysusToast]

The typical prop shop buiness model isnt a million miles away from what I do with my random robots, so its entirely feasible that they can operate profitably with traders with limited training.

But thats not the same as teaching a bunch of guys how to trade, its about the prop firm making money.

I guess it depends what you mean by "prop shop".

1 - A company that finds & funds traders
2 - A company that charges people for training, doesn't fund them & charges them for software/ar$e space and charges them to trade.

The latter is not a prop shop, it's just a company that exists to pull money from traders.

A shop that actually funds people is a different beast. The selection process is more rigorous and the way they allocate funds is based on performance. This is very much non-random because the best traders end up trading all the money.

So - if you have 30 guys and 4 are good, those 4 will be trading 90% of the money.

 

[grass_hopper]

I guess it depends what you mean by "prop shop".

1 - A company that finds & funds traders
2 - A company that charges people for training, doesn't fund them & charges them for software/ar$e space and charges them to trade.

DionysusToast,

Do you have an example of a company #1? I look at prop-shop ads every now and then but they all fall into #2 category.

Thanks
--
GH

 

[FUTEX]

DionysusToast,

Do you have an example of a company #1? I look at prop-shop ads every now and then but they all fall into #2 category.

Thanks
--
GH

"Grasshopper, you have much to learn"........ LOL thinking of that kung fu thing.

Category one is exactly what Futex do. Huge resource on recruitment, millions put up to back talent, all there becoming succesful traders. Dont just guess stuff then blog it. Find out for yourself. Come to Futex and speak to our dozens of traders and ask them the truth you are so willing to blindly dismiss. They are trading professionally and earning good numbers, and in many cases huge numbers.

 

[DionysusToast]

"Grasshopper, you have much to learn"........ LOL thinking of that kung fu thing.

Category one is exactly what Futex do. Huge resource on recruitment, millions put up to back talent, all there becoming succesful traders. Dont just guess stuff then blog it. Find out for yourself. Come to Futex and speak to our dozens of traders and ask them the truth you are so willing to blindly dismiss. They are trading professionally and earning good numbers, and in many cases huge numbers.

So you dont charge desk fees, transaction fees, platform fees etc? You fully fund newbies right from the off? Your traders dont have to provide their own capital? Training is free too, right?

And you still need to come here to tout for business?

Must be a lot of talent on these forums...