Day Trading Firms in the UK

[Halo]

ps. forgot to mention .. not sure what you're interested in trading or what your background is..

voltrex and optiver are options market makers/brokers in the main. mako do mostly options with a good futures arm. curvalue do futures, stocks and options.. schneider is virtually all futures..

 

[dmasterdc]

Halo,

you seem to have a good understanding of the firms.......if you was to rank them in preference to work for (in terms of reputation) what order would you place them? In your view is there any other trader house that you would recommend.

Thanks.

 

[warm_machine]

dmasterdc: A typical european outfit pays 26k basic but of course it will vary. For the first few years expect to be up at 5am and in bed by 10pm wherever you go. Do not expect an easy ride - yes you will have resources at your disposal so earning for your firm should be easier than earning as a private trader, but there is far far more pressure on you to perform - be prepared to hit the ground running following training. Don't worry too much about getting fired, you'll be moved on to something else and despite what you hear, it's not first in first out - generally speaking the oldies and peripherals are the ones they let go if things get tight. Go for a Dutch outfit if you can - depending on how the dice fall you may train in Holland, where options market is really something else and of course there are other benefits
Probably not a great deal of help but there you go!

 

[Halo]

it's soooo refreshing to see that the people on this site know what they're talking about..

in response to dmasterd (sounds like an old skool hip hop MC)
it really depends what you're aiming to do.

if you're interested in Futures trading try these:
MacFutures, STA (schneider), Curvalue, Mako, Goldenberg Heymeher, GHF, Vantage Derivatives and Trinity Broking.

For options (market making), try Mako, Optiver and a few more (I'm a bit weak on the options side).

The best bet is to look on liffe.com ... access to LIFFE, how to access, trading bureaux and then have a look at the websites

All of the groups have similar benefits and drawbacks but the best way forward is to make contact and see what you make of them from their response. I've thought of going this route too but have decided to try going alone to start with with my own dosh (about 10k to start) to see if I can make any progress.. I've a fair bit of experience in Futures so i'd like to test my own theories before being brainwashed into a single trading strategy by a group. I'd be really interested to hear the feedback you get from the groups to compare to my own Solo efforts...

Come on the Futures Traders!!!!!!!!

 

[pecospin]

I NEED SOME ADVICE!!!

I have been offered the opportunity of training as a futures trader with STA (Schneider), the problem is that they do not pay a salary and any profits (when you start making them!) will be split 50/50 with the firm. I am wondering whether this is a realistic way to make money and if there are similar firms out there that offer a basic salary. I do not think anyone makes money for the first 3 months or so. Any comments???

 

[bullish]

Pecospin,

I interviewed with onscreentrading and they offer a basic salary of £20k but a much smaller percentage of returns.

Do you mind me asking what your background is in terms of previous wrk experience and academics? I'm also thinking of applying to STA. Also do you know what level of capital they offer you to train with after the training period?

 

[bullish]

It seems much more reasonable to be offered a 50/50 split of trading profits........at least inthe long run your profits can be substantially higher!

 

[FTSE Beater]

Hi Pecospin

Welcome to T2W

The worrying thing for me would be the no salary part. Sounds like it's a do or die kind of situation and depending on your level of trading knowledge, it could be very profitable or a lot of hassle.

I wouldn't expect to make money in the first 3 months, unless they are going to supply the training on their system (if they have one).

HTH

 

[Halo]

... has got quite interesting this board..
pecospin...
it depends on what your situation is.. if you're going to be leaving a secure, well paid job to train @ STA then I suppose it's a harder decision ... if you're a recent grad. and could afford to live for 3 more months on beans on toast then why the hell not.. STA will offer good training and unless you've got other options go for it..
the main reason we're all on this board is that the potential earnings are un-capped... it could be worth the risk?

If you can get a salary and a split - all the better - but pllllllease read the small print and give some thought to what will happen if it goes well or if it goes badly... (get your hedges in early).


good luck and pls. keep posting to let us know how you get on..

 

[Halo]

hopefully this will offer some far better guidance than i can:

Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Mark Twain

 

[pecospin]

Hello boys....

I am really pleased to find some support, none of my friends are into trading so they do not understand why i am even considering a job that offers no salary.

Bullish...
You are asking about my background... I am a recent graduate, I have a BEng in electronics engineering and a Masters in IT. I have also passed my SFA exam. As for trading experience... I have none, mainly because i don't have the capital to trade.
As for the conditions offered by STA... the 50/50 split is only to start with until you make enough money to start paying for your fees (desk and equipment, £1500pm) and from then on, profits are split 70/30 with the firm.

FTSE beater...
It is definately a live or die situation, apparently they take in about 10 trainees every month and only a few of those survive. My main worry would be to end up exhausting my initial capital and finding myself back to square one. The only thing I would get out of it in that case would be some trading experience, but if I happen to do badly then I don't know how useful that would be in terms of finding another job as a trader.

Halo...
At the moment I am stuck doing some very boring office job that pays the ridiculous salary of £16K pa. So if I was to give it a try I would literally be living on beans and toast for three months. The reason why it is tempting to me is because, as you said, I might end up regretting not having gone for it. I have been through the graduate recruitment for trading positions with some investment banks but the situation is quite hard at the moment and that strategy has not proven very successful so far.

Could anybody tell me, in your opinion... what does it take to become a successful trader? (Do's and Dont's)

 

[options]

Imho.
Go for it. If I had the chance when I was your age, I would have ripped someones arms off for a crack at this. Mind you. 20 years ago...(okay, 30 years ago,) I had no idea I would become a trader. And this is a the problem you have. You don't know if you like, or are suited to trading yet. But having no experiance may be of great benefit because they can teach you from a clean slate.

A lot of grads take a year off to swan around the world or whatever. Have this as your year off. If it all goes wrong you can say to your next potential employer that you have spent the last year year drifting down the Swanee. Which won't be too far removed from the truth.

If you don't try, you will never know for certain. And as you get older you will regret the things you didn't do. Some, will have passed by forever, and you will never ever know, the others are still there, waiting for you to grab them by the throat and give it a shake.

So what if you live on beans on toast for a year, you'll get to like it.
So what, if you are doing a 14 hour day and your mates are down the pub.

What makes a trader?

Passion, knowledge, (and knowing that what you are doing is right, despite the setbacks...of which there will be plenty.) and lastly commitment.

Are you a trader??????

Why don't you try this for yourself. On the one hand you have a firm that partialy supports you, but you end up paying a fair whack back, or you stay in your job, scrape together a bit of capital and give it a go.
I would favour the latter, because you are truly independant, but it will take longer.

I have heard of private individuals that sponser young (potentialy) good trader's but these are few and far between and only go for young traders. This in my view is really stupid as the older trader has more knowledge and will make less mistakes.

Whatever you choose...Good luck

Options

 

[FTSE Beater]

Hi Pecospin

I think it comes down to what they are going to show you. If their going to teach you there system (that I presume works), then go for it. Use there knowledge and then if the worse happens, you can take the knowledge you've got (practically for free) and invest in the markets yourself. You might have to do the 9-5 job a bit longer though

Just my thoughts

 

[Halo]

Pecospin.

I understand completely the difficult choices you've got..

If your educational background and training have been more scientific/quantitative I would recomend that you look more seriously at the Options trading opportunities that are out there..

Being far more complex (and therefore ignored by the instant gratification-quick-buck-futures-people like me) options are probably a more secure career path as if you can handle them as products you should never be out of work for long... there are always jobs in the city for bright options literate people.. even an operations or back office role can pay twice what you're getting now so look at all the angles.. if you can't get in via the trading desk try the back or middle office clerk roles where you can get some exposure, get paid more, see if you like the environment (and the people) and maybe work your way up..

have a look at www.liquidcap.com - they are doing good things...

another good thing to do is try some paper trading .. every night find a contract to look at like FTSE or DAX ....its a good place to start and then see what happens over a few days.. there's not a bad trading simulator on the liffe website


may the force be with you!

 

[bullish]

Pecospin,

you have a similar background to me within the quantitative arena. I've a BSc in maths and economics and an MSc in finance from top 10 universities, so finding the training programme that offers the most comprehensive understanding to trading is crucial. Personally, STA seems to be a bit of a survive or die situation........with a good returns if you are successful, but with no basic salary living in London could be very risky.

 

[TraderPattern]

Qualifications, schmolifications! On paper I have a heap of qualifications that would stand up to anyone else's.

But you guys should wake up and smell the coffee. Successful trading has very little to do with qualifications, unless you are doing complex arbitrage or some kinds of options strategies. Successful trading has a lot more to do with personal traits which allow you to avoid the mistakes which result in the vast majority of traders failing.

Now, on to a point which those of you contemplating working for a prop firm should bear in mind. You should negotiate hard from the onset to ensure that you are not locked into some crappy deal forever. Invariably, the rational prop firm exists to maximise its self-interest, not to maximise the gains of the fodder that it periodically hires. This means that the beginning trader will usually get a tiny salary (or no salary) and some kind of pitiful split on profitability. Then of course the prop firm will debit desk and facilitation fees of upto £2000 a month (if you are not profitable right from the beginning, prop firms will keep a track on how much you owe them). For the minority of the fodder who haven't been fired and who have become consistent acheivers, they will often be locked into a c.50-60% slice and they will also be contractually prevented from joining another firm for a period of up to 2 years after quitting (this contractual lock is a killer, because by the time you are highly consistent, you will be seeking an 80% slice of the cake at least, and will only be able to get it by jumping).

So if you join a prop firm, read the small print and try to get the clause on a contractual lock-in removed. Also, try and get any clause relating to personal liability for accumulated desk fees removed. Also try and get any clauses on fixed payouts changed to something like "subject to negotiation after 1 year". If you don't do all of this, you are gonna be screwed further down the line.

If any of you do end up joining a prop firm, you should view it as a means to an end. The best way to play the prop firm game is to join, make the mistakes and learn the game with their money and then quit to trade for yourself, on your own terms and whenever you want and wherever you want (isn't this what the trading lifestyle is meant to be about, after all? ). You must treat prop firms with the same contempt that they treat you with (fake, welcoming smiles coupled with a relatively low risk approach to playing the fodder they hire). There is absolutely no need to get chummy with these mercenaries.

 

[options]

lol, well said.

 

[TraderPattern]

Thanks Options; anything to help people from getting hurt.

 

[pecospin]

Thanx a lot for your help,

I know it is down to me at the end of the day but it helps to get as much advice as possible so as to make an informed decision.

TradderPattern
Thanks for the information, very useful... I have requested a copy of the contract and i will be looking at all the things you mentioned

You said...
"Successful trading has a lot more to do with personal traits which allow you to avoid the mistakes which result in the vast majority of traders failing".
What are those mistakes that make most traders fail??

Options...
Very inspiring, you seem very optimistic about the idea.

To those of you who have given up their jobs/careers to start trading full-time and have had to take pay cuts and endured some difficult times..... Would you say that, overall, it has been worth it???

 

[FTSE Beater]

To those of you who have given up their jobs/careers to start trading full-time and have had to take pay cuts and endured some difficult times..... Would you say that, overall, it has been worth it???

I haven't fully made it yet and I started trading privately (and not through a company so I don't know whether it counts). To quote Agent K from Men In Black.

Oh yeah, It's worth it - if your good enough

Trading is like nothing else on earth, this is not a "normal" job.