Darwinex investment fee calculation

[IlIlIlIlI]

About your signature Robot 'ILR', hypothetically users of that Robot that projected 32.55% annual return have a fee to apply, the breakdown of the fee is:
1.2% annual fee + 20% Performance fee= Total charge of 21.2% annual charge whether strategy makes any profit or not?

@Blonde_Angel
If you register at Darwinex, you automatically get an investor portfolio where you can buy Darwins with an investment amount. The minimum is $ 200. For buying you have to make a deposit in your investor portfolio.
You can decide to use 3x leverage which means that you borrow twice your deposit and you can buy for the triple amount of your deposit. With a 10k deposit you can invest in Darwins for 30k.
You're charged 1.2% management fee per year split on a daily basis on the equity of the investment.
View attachment 299031

The investment amount does not change, regardless whether the investment makes profit or loss.
You pay 20% performance fee on the profit you make, if you make losses, you only pay the management fee. This fee is retained daily on the high water mark and settled every 3 months. If the Darwin does not close on an all time high for your investment period, you get the part of the retained fees back which is not covered by the Darwins performance on the settlement date.

May I ask if their % of loss and % that you may not able to reach the goal of 32.55% is calculated anywhere and is it presented to the customer? And customer knows in what percentage you may succeed and meet the goal of 32.55% and in what percentage you may not?
Risk assessment is a sophisticated finance topic, have you professionally calculated this risk assessment and presented it to customers?

The have a riskmanager which calculates the replication factor for the investors. That's the difference between the performance of the trading account and the Darwin in the investor account. Darwinex calculates that with professional algos. The parameters are equity of the trading account, of all investors and the calculated replication factor. As they buy real positions, the minimum size is usually 0.01 lots. A divergence between the traders price and the investors price is also possible, in my example it is in favour for the investors.
Example from ILR:
View attachment 299034

I mean is this All the charges Total as 21.2% or your share as strategy developer is extra over these fees or it's inside the 20% Performance fee or is the actual 20% Performance fee is totally yours?

As shown above, there are two seperated fees which are calculated daily and they are not fix and can't be 100% predicted as equity of the investment will vary.
No, the trader only shares the performance fee - 15% is for the trader and 5% is kept by Darwinex. Investor fees are alqways kept be Darwinex.

I mean what if invested 1Million EUR annually:
1- It made 21.2% profit in total?
2- It made 25% profit in total?
3- It made 15% profit in total?
4- It made 5% profit in total?
5- It made 0% profit in total?
6- It made a -10% loss in total? (Profit+loss= -10% loss in total means strategy made 10% of capital loss without making any profit)

Anwers:
1 - you pay 1.2% managment fee and 4.24 % performance fee.
2- you pay 1.2% managment fee and 5.0 % performance fee.
3 - you pay 1.2% managment fee and 3.0 % performance fee.
4 - you pay 1.2% managment fee and 1.0 % performance fee.
5 and 6 - you pay 1.2% managment fee and no peformance fee.

The answers above are not mathematically correct, but an indication, as the settlement is made every 3 months for the performance fee and daily for the management fee.
Example:
If you make 5 % profit in the first 3 month until the settlement date you pay 1.0 % performance fee and about 0.3 % managment fee for these three months.
If you lose 3% in the second quarter you pay about 0.3 % managment fee for these three months.
If you lose another 5 % in the third quarter you pay about 0.3 % managment fee for these three months.
If you make 8 % profit in the fourth quarter you pay about 0.3 % managment fee for these three months and no performance fee as the high water mark of the first three months is not exceeded.

 

[Blonde_Angel]

Hiya @IlIlIlIlI



Thanks.
-Performance fee in your term means 20% of the profit? And it's not the 20% of the capital that is invested? But the Management fee is calculated as 1.2 capital invested without profit(if made any)?
e.g. 1Million EUR invested, 250K EUR profit in total, then Performance fee is:
1Million(EUR)- 1.2%(1Million EUR)= 1'000'0000-12'000=988'000 EUR
250'000 EUR - 20%(250'000 EUR) = 250'000 EUR - 50'000 EUR = 200'000 EUR
988'000 EUR + 200'000 EUR= 988'000 EUR + 200'000 EUR = 1'188'000 EUR
I understand your calculations are monthly, but the total calculation in the case of 25% annual profit is above?

-You mentioned the investment amount does not change. Does this mean if someone loses his capital due to a margin cut, they can't invest further to prevent it?


Tnx and best of luck

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

understand your calculations are monthly, but the total calculation in the case of 25% annual profit is above?

-You mentioned the investment amount does not change. Does this mean if someone loses his capital due to a margin cut, they can't invest further to prevent it?

The calculation of the profit and performance fee is correct.
Management fee is calculated on the daily equity, so it would be higher than 12k as you accumulate the profit during the year increasing the equity and don't make the yearly profit only on the last day. Usually.

The risk management algos prevent the investor from losing the full capital when the trader wipes his account out. The replication factor will be significantly reduced for a longer period so there will always be enough equity from the investor to share the trades of the trader's account as the trader needs money for the margin requirement.

Maybe it's easier to understand if you register at Darwinex and try it out with your demo portfolio.

 

[morehastelessspeed]

This real user of the "Investor" side of the Darwinex platform has been constantly invested (about 10k) since July 2020. The image below shows their first yearly report, i.e. the last 6 months of 2020:

As you can see, fees were about 80% of the total return ("Profits"), which was negative, i.e. losing. This 80% is in fact realized losses due to costs. The remaining 20% of drawdown is the narrow window the user has to actively improve their choices in selecting which Darwins to invest, when to buy them and when to sell them, and so on, in the hope of overcoming the costs and actually making some net profit. Also note "performace fees" would have taken a higher proportion of costs, had the investor made some "gross profits".

Beware the copy-trading side of this broker is labelled "Investor", yet it requires active effort comparable to direct trading, if perhaps not as hazardous. Copy-trading is not as much of a "passive investment" as, for example, investing regularly in an automated porfolio of index mutual funds.

My advice would be to think with a trader's mindset, setting definite targets, taking profits and controlling risk with stop levels. With the benefit of hindsight, I now see my fundamental error was to go in with an investor's open-ended attitude.

I hope this helps,