Character

[RUDEBOY]

Ducs, let me get back to you. At the moment my mind is unserious. Cheers, RB.

 

[sulong]

Right or wrong is immaterial.
With a technical trade, losing trades are expected.
It is the manner in which they are dealt with that is important.
When a person, in this case SOCRATES places himself in the position of a "guru" it is my expectation that some evidence be shown as a point of pride, if nothing else.

Cheers d998

I'm a little curious why you would view a "point of pride" as a meaningful characteristic?
Do you think successful traders are publicly proud?
It seems to me that that type of behaviour would garner one more feather in the hat of "arrogance" that some would paint on.

 

[SOCRATES]

No, you don't get it sulong. What they all want is to be told. What they all want is hand holding. That is what they really want, and when they don't get it, well, tantrums !

 

[RUDEBOY]

Kris, lets just say you are wrong for now. Thats the fairest discission, taking everything into consideration. Have a sleep on it all, stop smoking and drinking so much. Try to take your mind off the markets for a while (they are getting to you), this cant be good for a person! Go away and think. Its the only way forward for you, you need to relax and chill out. For Christs sake, if anybody can do it in the end you can (hopefully).

 

[ducati998]

sulong,

It seems to me that that type of behaviour would garner one more feather in the hat of "arrogance" that some would paint on.

You would seem to correlate "PRIDE" with "ARROGANCE".
If that is your opinion, thats is fine.

Pride in ones work.
Pride in ones family
Pride in accomplishing a goal...............etc.

Context can play a large part in how you perceive pride.
Now returning to your comment regarding the guru's.
If you place yourself as a guru, ie. someone who through greater knowledge, experience and or a combination thereof, I personally feel that the respect accorded should be based on tangible evidence..............otherwise I am basing my decision on inadequate information.

SOCRATES, to his credit has not sought sanctuary within a "Private Forum".
DBP & Mr Charts have.
Why?

To cut down on "noise"?
I don't think so............all can register EXCEPT critics.

My favorite example............well it was my own.
To DBP........a P&V guru,
I asked him to define PRICE...........a not unreasonable request of a guru.
His reaction, deletion of the post and or subsequent posts, and the eventual opening of a private forum.

True masters of their craft do not run away from awkward questions, they confront them head on...............Character.

cheers d998

 

[Salty Gibbon]

I simply do not understand why people get so agitated about the posts of Socrates.

Personally I tend to chew on a lot of what he says and I have picked out a few things that he has said that have helped me. This is also the case with certain other posters on T2W.

Sometimes I will just see one word or phrase in a very long and detailed post and that word or phrase will be of great help to me. For example just yesterday I zapped on "happy" and "total control" from another thread and these words ( in the context in which they were set ) kept me thinking for a long time.

Socrates used the word "dare" some time ago and that word has lodged in my brain - probably because I wasn't daring enough - but now I "dare" a lot more than I used to with good results.

What I am trying to say is that I don't really care what somebody says and how they say it - they can be arrogant, full of cow's crap or whatever. Most of us have annoying attributes anyway so what the hell.

Better to let people like Soc have their say and if you think it's rubbish, either debate it or ignore it , or do what I do and dissect it in order to discover the hidden gems that are frequently present.

 

[RUDEBOY]

Good call, SG! If it is my place to say so? (well, you never know). RB.

 

[sulong]

Pride in ones self, and ones accomplishments are very different than a display of pride publicly.
Only one of those can a person attache arrogance to.

I don't believe I made any comment about "Guru's.

As far as your comment on deleted post's, I think maybe some form of "Promiscuous" was involved in that, when "Discriminating" is what was called for.

 

[RUDEBOY]

Sulong, what are you going on about? Arrogance is a perception of the weak or unknowing! Anything else on this site is guesswork. To know arrogance is to know the person, so......you know where i am comming from?

 

[RUDEBOY]

Ducatti, do i not have the manners to ask you to carry on with your original thread?

 

[sulong]

Sulong, what are you going on about? Arrogance is a perception of the weak or unknowing! Anything else on this site is guesswork. To know arrogance is to know the person, so......you know where i am comming from?

Ether keep up with the conversation or be quiet.
Sheesh, do you ever stay on topic?

 

[RUDEBOY]

Ducatti, we could short list all night, you know, patience, discipline, blah, blah and blah. But, my question to you is (never mind starting a sentence with 'but'?). What can you trade with? Emotion? Human nature? Humour? Aggresiveness? T2W? Youve got to look carefully, and stop being so face value. The question of character pales into insignificance on the markets, but the question (although childlike) does matter? The reasons for you to ask this is suprising, you need to ask because although amongst other traders you are cynical, if not of yourself then of other people. Therefore you have answered your own question, you are finding your own character by asking these questions. Whether or not you are are a believer in your self or other people is a question only you can answer! Good trading, RB.

 

[RUDEBOY]

Sulong only pivots on his own axis, thats character? Not in touch with debate or reasoning but a sure sense of trying to be observed, which can only lead to failure or self destruction?

 

[RUDEBOY]

To be above isn't arrogance....it's common sense?

 

[RUDEBOY]

Sulong NEEDS an outburst! Without it he is nothing. It gives a person control for a split second, then after that, nothing again? Sulong......Bad trader.....bad trader!

 

[SOCRATES]

I have been very busy up till now, and now I am free. All the above posts are very interesting, each one in its own right. The comen - tata is now going to commentate on each of them starting with number 10 through to number 35.

 

[SOCRATES]

This could be quite an interesting thread, Ducatti. Human character or nature is, lets face it, unquantifiable to a certain degree and becomes to generlised upon to say the least, but, rich men from good backgrounds have lost millions and working class men from not so good backgrounds have made millions. So where should we start? Money is the human medium if you like, nowadays anyway, weve evolved a monetary system, where it will go in the future who knows, but it has strong links to success. Before money success was based on abilty to survive, in fact the markets are about survival, survival of the fittest is not just a pun, it is reality woven in to human instinct. This leads us back to youre original thread. Humans, who makes it ...who dont? Personally i blame genetics, but good genes cannot be bought or sold through a broker ( well, not just yet). To become something you are not is harder than trading itself, thats the real f****r of it all. What do you think, Ducs? RB.

You touch upon the central core of the nature of character itself.
Character is not personality. Personality is a derivative of character.
Character is the engine, whereas personality represents the gears.

An individual may have a likeable or dislikeable personality, but it has nothing to do with his character.

The personality of an individual may change throughout his lifetime, owing mainly to the attainment of maturity, and as a consequence of life experiences encountered but his character, the central core, will always remain the same. This blend in human makeup is not popularly understood and it took me a long time to sift it out and finally be able to grasp the concept properly.

You could say that the engine that drives the individual to strive and eventually succeed is his character, therefore for this profession the prime requirement is the posession of the right character.

People with the wrong character will never succeed, no matter how accomplished they might be otherwise, whether in looks, charm, academic achievement, height, weight, colour, race or gender.

This is because character is linked to drive, whereas personality is the outward manifestation derived from this mechanism. This is why survival depends on character and not on personality. Personality is but a mask, but character is the true engine that drives, is able to meet challenges, setbacks, obstacles, contretemps, difficulties, and able to overcome and survive. It is the engine on which personality ultimately depends, and not the other way round. Therefore to approach the challenge via personality is the wrong route, to the dismay and bafflement of many.

 

[SOCRATES]

Integeraty of a trader, with himself or with other people. To lie is instinct, truth and reason is hard to come by in the world of money. Sometimes its as if this site hates the truth, bearers of truth are villified because it does not suit human nature at times. The subject of truth and lies should be open to universities, it is a phenomena that will never die out with evolution. Lying is part of evolution, humans and all other animals use it to thier discretion. Beware!

You could say there is a parallel between trading, that is, success versus failure, and life and death. This is because both results have no remedy, and are therefore inexhorable, irrevocable.

The problem, and I have said it many times, is that in everyday life everything has a remedy.
In trading there are no remedies. What you do, you do. You cannot go back and undo what you have done.

I have likened it to the most cruel court of judgement, in which the verdict is delivered before the trial is heard, and there is no appeal. This to most ordinary people is a SHOCK for which ordinary life, with all its remedies and excuses, does not prepare them.

Therefore, you could say that because the great majority are not accustomed to this, they persist in attacking all of this with the frame of reference, that in their experience or even that of their peers, functions more or less efficiently in ordinary life.

In the world of trading this is not so. I am not going to enter into a long explanation why it is that all of this is not constructed for the benefit of the public and so on, but it is suffice to say that this unpreparedness is what catches people out.

Now a new frame of reference has to be adopted, which is unfamiliar and which many people even consider to be an affront, yes indeed, an affront to their preconcieved notions of their abilities to rescue situations through the skilful application of various remedies, none of which can work in trading.

The adoption of this new frame of reference is a difficult and uncomfortable excercise for everyone, but an impossible mission to fulfil by those not having the right character, for the reasons explained and laid out in my previous post, above. Nor is it attainable via the route of personality, also for the reasons explained and laid out in my previous post , again, above.

The excercise to try to achieve this mission via the route of personality is futile. Yet, nearly everyone tries via this route, only to bang their heads against an invisible wall, rather like a bumble bee in the conservatory trying to find its way out by trying to fly straight through a window pane, just because it can see the garden, according to its limited frame of reference.

The bumble bee cannot distinguish the difference between a pane of glass and an open window. This is because the frame of reference of a bumble bee is the wrong one. But once it is coaxed out of the window, off it buzzes, with a noticeable aura of relief and delight about it.

Now human beings have to coax themselves to adopt the correct frame of reference in order for them to succeed. They have to teach themselves to fly through open windows and not through glass panes. But when viewed from the perspective of personality both look the same ~ it is only when human beings force themselves to view the problem from the perspective of character that the problem can be solved.

I will topically interrupt here to explain that when I make statements and they are responded to with rudeness or aggression, it is because the respondent is viewing the problem from the perspective of personality persistently, instead of the correct one. For this reason, I am not offended, as I am able to understand the difficulties they face, and that their responses are the consequence of incorrect thought. So I am able to forgive them.

If they were able to view all of this via the route of character instead of personality, the outcome for them as persons would be very different. They would be able to attain what it is they ultimately seek because they would be embracing logic and reason instead of emotional response.

This is a very important concept for a trader. Yet many find it extremely difficult to master.
This is because the new frame of reference, the one that presents discomfort and unfamiliarity is the one that has to be adopted for the purpose, and not the other one.
Encapsulated within this frame of reference is the concept of personal integrity.

Personal integrity depends upon honesty and truth, and what is more, is ruled by self government of the highest order. This type of self govenment is not a pressing requisite in ordinary life, as there are rules and laws and ordinances and behavioural codes to follow.
The perimeters of acceptable conduct are laid out and labelled clearly for everyone to see and obey and observe. In the world of trading however, there are no such perimeters laid out and labelled clearly for evreryone to see becauseeffective traders are expected to make their own labels, and to make their own rules about correct conduct and procedure and tactics and so on.

It therefore happens that in addition to finding themselves in a cruel environment where additionally to the verdict being delivered before the trial is heard, now participants in this murderous game within a killing field are expected not just to substitute personality for character as their main drives, but also act within a framework of morality and reason and logical deduction and self governance and integrity and truth, they additionally have to overcome the corrupting effect of money.

Money, or the idea of money in abstraction, carries emotional charge. Additionally it has the power, by vitue of carrying emotional charge, to disable the ability to logically deduce and reason, and hence to corrupt.

 

[SOCRATES]

ANYWAY! On a more lighter shade of dark, there are many different types of people who make it in trading. There is probably a stereotypicle type we all have in our minds, but forget that, its not so. Naturals, naturals for trading are not from the same litter, if you like, and can be quite the opposite, character wise. Chess, (i think ive mentioned this before), can be taught or learned, but the true mechanics of a good chess players mind are not nurtured, they are just.....well....there. Think about this seriously! How can you train yourself to take on Kasparov? You cant, you are of a natural ability or you aint. Come on Ducatti, give us a bit of support here!

This post is also very interesting. The principles that I have outlined in my previous two posts above, equally apply to what RUDEBOY comments on above. You see, it all revolves around the same concept. The central core of an individual's being is his character. If the individual does not strive to engage the engine of his character and persist in engaging the gears of his personality instead the correct result is not obtained.

The whole idea revolves around the individual emanating drive from his engine. In order to do that he has to be ready, willing and able to do it, and not just pretending, by reconfiguring his entire outlook. The reluctance to do this is commonplace because of the difficulties involved as I have discussed above, therefore by default one could argue that as a result of a reluctance on the part of the great majority to succumb to hte idea of having to change themselves in order to succeed, we could effectively argue that it is as if traders are born, and not made.

 

[SOCRATES]

Right, positive points (although what i have said is not negative, just fact), everybody learns to trade! That is also fact! Saying this, character traits will differ from trader to trader, we are all different, no? But, these traits as i have called them will 'kick in' at different 'times', lets call it an in-built self preservation thing, wether it be bad or good for the individual in trading?

Well it depends, because as I have explained above, people are apt to respond via their personalities because it is easier. Some aspects of a trader's personality as a separate adjucnt may be positive attributes, others negative. It all depends on which "button" is pressed and when and for what reason.