arabianights
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I have a solution that I think would please all parties. Give Chris 6 months to get his life back on track and then apply the pool money as though it were a loan at a punitive but not excessive interest rate, say around 10%, and let him pay it back. I suspect he probably wants to.
donaldduke
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arabianights
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He's made a confession but it is certainly not 100% accurate; it claims the money was only lost in the last few weeks. Agreed that complete honesty is probably the best plan going forwards.
It would tie up a lot of loose ends as well.
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firewalker99
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Once upon a time there was this one pool member who confronted everyone with the simple truth, showed how nothing made sense, had concrete proof to back up his thesis, took a whole lot of effort in putting everything together for a concrete case, but got in response nothing but a lot of laughs and insults.
After a lot of heated debate, 5 people finally decided they wanted out. At the exact final minute (before the exodus email was sent) 3 reconsidered, and only one two were left, the rest either thought "the 250£ was worth this kind of entertainment", or were too scared they would miss out on 150K.
Then this one person who found out about all the deceit, kept pushing wasp, kept being aggressive in his approach, but found no one else on his side who was ready to publicly step forward. He made it very clear he wasn't going to be tossed around and set two ultimatums. Meanwhile other people members were asked to put in more money (up to 20K), but they didn't feel necessary to share any of that information with the rest.
The only thing this person got in return were angry emails from members who said they "weren't interested anymore" and insults from other pool members, including threats for slander and libel. At the same time the fine T2W management did their best to cover things up, and remove all references and threads.
During all this time this other person, who was still waiting to get paid, did nothing else than play along with the scammer's game, thought it was best to give it some more time, decided not to post anything in public which could support the first person's arguments, but thought it was better to stay friendly. After keeping quiet for 6 more weeks and a lot of promises about an EPIC thread, they finally realized what this other person had been telling them and gave up on hoping.
Now when all has been said and done, some people think they are going to be rewarded for their mistakes, their misplaced trust, and their utter ignorance?!
You know what I say to all those?
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trendie
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Just throwing my 2c in:
The initial group risked £250. We are all traders. I hope it was money we could all afford to walk away from. The second, and subsequent intakes, who paid more, were not traders, and perhaps deserving of our sympathy.
I really dont get FWs tirade about "naive" and "gullible", or sentiments about "we get what we deserve" or indeed "not feeling sorry for us"; we took a long-shot, it didnt pay off.
Nobody is asking for anyone to feel sorry for anyone.
It certainly turned into a mega-lulz. Whether Chris started with good intentions, but found himself out of his depth, or whether it was a con from the outset, we may never know.
We could deduce some of the above if we could access the IgIndex, ODL and Dukascopy accounts.
We could then deduce whether he traded at all, or just was poor at trading.
Its all over. I think. I mean, the pool was officially closed at least 3 times! And each time, by some bizarre logic I never understood, it got carried on.
As soap-operas go, this was top-class entertainment.
I wouldnt have missed it for the world. Full of cliff-edge endings, emotional turmoil, rumour, hearsay, etc.
I think I understand arabianights point of view now; as I understand it, he met Chris. maybe AN made an assessment of Chris ability, and used his considerable trading experience to get a measure of the man. I dont know.
If thats the case, I should have paid more attention to AN. Either way, my position has always been its just £250, no biggie.
FW is an altogether interesting party to this.
I wonder if FWs rather stern views, and deprecating opinions of his fellow pool members comes from the fact that he claimed to be owed for 3 shares, valued at £10,953.
FW was, without a doubt, messed about by Chris, and was eventually given a very, very, very small return, on the grounds that 2 of the 3 shares werent paid for. (This is a messy episode, and there may be other aspects involved)
I cant help feel FWs attack on everyone and everything is just a sublimation on him missing out on about £10,000. Ironically, if he truly believed it was a Ponzi scheme, he would have knowingly been taking other peoples money, rather than from trading profits.
That aside, I think FW was instrumental in finding the evidence of multiple inconsistencies, and deserves the credit for building a strong for it being not all that it was shown to be.
Interestingly, we are fighting amongst ourselves, and having back-biting exercises, rather than coolly focussing at Chris, who is at the centre of this fiasco.
The focus, should be on how Chris blew up, when, and why. It may be a useful post-mortem on the problems faced when trading.
If Chris never traded well to begin with, how has he been supporting himself? On savings? On an inheritance? On social benefits? Running up credit-card bills?
(this project has been going on since April/May)
anyway, as with all the best soaps, there may be more mega-lulz on the way.
As an aside, high returns dont automatically mean its the sign of a con:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/26947-making-money-trading.html#post365809
trader_dante had the phrase "2,154% in 14 weeks" in his signature, on his now famous thread.
EDIT: missed FWs last post above. funnily enough, re-inforcing my views.
The initial group risked £250. We are all traders. I hope it was money we could all afford to walk away from. The second, and subsequent intakes, who paid more, were not traders, and perhaps deserving of our sympathy.
I really dont get FWs tirade about "naive" and "gullible", or sentiments about "we get what we deserve" or indeed "not feeling sorry for us"; we took a long-shot, it didnt pay off.
Nobody is asking for anyone to feel sorry for anyone.
It certainly turned into a mega-lulz. Whether Chris started with good intentions, but found himself out of his depth, or whether it was a con from the outset, we may never know.
We could deduce some of the above if we could access the IgIndex, ODL and Dukascopy accounts.
We could then deduce whether he traded at all, or just was poor at trading.
Its all over. I think. I mean, the pool was officially closed at least 3 times! And each time, by some bizarre logic I never understood, it got carried on.
As soap-operas go, this was top-class entertainment.
I wouldnt have missed it for the world. Full of cliff-edge endings, emotional turmoil, rumour, hearsay, etc.
I think I understand arabianights point of view now; as I understand it, he met Chris. maybe AN made an assessment of Chris ability, and used his considerable trading experience to get a measure of the man. I dont know.
If thats the case, I should have paid more attention to AN. Either way, my position has always been its just £250, no biggie.
FW is an altogether interesting party to this.
I wonder if FWs rather stern views, and deprecating opinions of his fellow pool members comes from the fact that he claimed to be owed for 3 shares, valued at £10,953.
FW was, without a doubt, messed about by Chris, and was eventually given a very, very, very small return, on the grounds that 2 of the 3 shares werent paid for. (This is a messy episode, and there may be other aspects involved)
I cant help feel FWs attack on everyone and everything is just a sublimation on him missing out on about £10,000. Ironically, if he truly believed it was a Ponzi scheme, he would have knowingly been taking other peoples money, rather than from trading profits.
That aside, I think FW was instrumental in finding the evidence of multiple inconsistencies, and deserves the credit for building a strong for it being not all that it was shown to be.
Interestingly, we are fighting amongst ourselves, and having back-biting exercises, rather than coolly focussing at Chris, who is at the centre of this fiasco.
The focus, should be on how Chris blew up, when, and why. It may be a useful post-mortem on the problems faced when trading.
If Chris never traded well to begin with, how has he been supporting himself? On savings? On an inheritance? On social benefits? Running up credit-card bills?
(this project has been going on since April/May)
anyway, as with all the best soaps, there may be more mega-lulz on the way.
As an aside, high returns dont automatically mean its the sign of a con:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/first-steps/26947-making-money-trading.html#post365809
trader_dante had the phrase "2,154% in 14 weeks" in his signature, on his now famous thread.
EDIT: missed FWs last post above. funnily enough, re-inforcing my views.
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elitejets
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As usual I agree wit Trendie, but I have to say that I wish I had never joined. The time wasted on the endless discussion about this and the 7 week battle to get out of the pool was a serious distraction to my own trading for a couple of weeks. Never again.
PS - Firewalker - Just because I wasn't running around posting on bulletin boards and forums does not mean I was "going along with a scammer".
donaldduke
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Many traders have made 1000%+ returns over short periods at some point in their trading careers.
However when someone says they can do it on demand then you can be sure its a con.
firewalker99
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There's little to add to your post trendie. Perhaps your incorrect and misplaced assumptions about my "missing out on 10K" stem from the fact you were (and clearly still are) quite ready to believe anything Chris throws at you. I guess it must have something to do with the fact you're so open-minded you're ready to believe in spoon and fork-bending...
Carry on... I'm sure there'll be more opportunities next year where you can put £250 in... I heard this pool wasn't the first time you took a venture into the deep and lost money from it, so I'm guessing it won't be the last time either.
Good luck whatever route your pursue.
counter_violent
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FW nobody was hiding anything...threads were pulled because they were not constructive...fwiw..I have been following all of this closely since 8th june and it is all logged and recorded.
In the mean time you seem happy to have profitted from this at the expense of the others.
In the mean time you seem happy to have profitted from this at the expense of the others.
firewalker99
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Yes, it's what everybody who trades profitably does. I'm sure you understand...
I can make 1000% returns on demand. All you have to do is read the market, open your mind, let profits run, cut losses quickly, never chase losses, never try to catch a falling knfe, wait for confirmation, never pick tops, trend is your friend, don't spread bet, don't be silly, clip your toenails, take regular exercise, drink lots of alcohol, smoke fags, eat sh!t, punch people in the face, set fire to buildings, shoot cats, sleep under hedges, armed robbery, jail riots, attempt suicide....
elitejets
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Question
Moral Dilemma Question (hypothetical)
You are a member of an investment pool and you come to believe that a crime is being committed. What do you do? Do you:
a) Make loud threats and harrass on bulletin boards and internet forums to extract your share of the proceeds (of what you believe to be a crime)
OR
b) Give that person every last opportunity to pay and prove you wrong until it is obvious and then tell them you are going to the police/FSA thereby extracting a confession for the benefit of everyone in the pool.
I will give you a clue ... a) makes you more money.
Moral Dilemma Question (hypothetical)
You are a member of an investment pool and you come to believe that a crime is being committed. What do you do? Do you:
a) Make loud threats and harrass on bulletin boards and internet forums to extract your share of the proceeds (of what you believe to be a crime)
OR
b) Give that person every last opportunity to pay and prove you wrong until it is obvious and then tell them you are going to the police/FSA thereby extracting a confession for the benefit of everyone in the pool.
I will give you a clue ... a) makes you more money.
zupcon
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Whats the phrase I'm looking for......
ah yes, "Some are more equal than others" !
oiltanker
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curry? more like a bottle of vodka?
as this happens a lot in the financial world perhaps it might be interesting to study the process of extracting money. Why would anyone give money to someone they only knew online from a board?
the first thing is to build trust. once you build trust then you can invite for money.
of course to indulge in this sort of thing one has to be ruthless. which is why the cia use door to door selling, phone calling etc as training for agents. The targets are so high [to pass] they have to cheat old grannies, the easily led and miss sell to the mentally ill. This process helps to 'de moralise' the agents ie forget about morals and just remember the mission [the targets].
anyway perhaps there might be a bit of service in someone writing a fuller article on the techniques used in financial markets to build trust for exploitation.
there will always be people who CHOOSE to use their power not for the greater good but for their own good.
as this happens a lot in the financial world perhaps it might be interesting to study the process of extracting money. Why would anyone give money to someone they only knew online from a board?
the first thing is to build trust. once you build trust then you can invite for money.
of course to indulge in this sort of thing one has to be ruthless. which is why the cia use door to door selling, phone calling etc as training for agents. The targets are so high [to pass] they have to cheat old grannies, the easily led and miss sell to the mentally ill. This process helps to 'de moralise' the agents ie forget about morals and just remember the mission [the targets].
anyway perhaps there might be a bit of service in someone writing a fuller article on the techniques used in financial markets to build trust for exploitation.
there will always be people who CHOOSE to use their power not for the greater good but for their own good.
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counter_violent
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If the ship was going down and there were not enough life boats i'm convinced women and children would be thrown overboard by some.
arabianights
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curry? more like a bottle of vodka?
as this happens a lot in the financial world perhaps it might be interesting to study the process of extracting money. Why would anyone give money to someone they only knew online from a board?
the first thing is to build trust. once you build trust then you can invite for money.
of course to indulge in this sort of thing one has to be ruthless. which is why the cia use door to door selling, phone calling etc as training for agents. The targets are so high [to pass] they have to cheat old grannies, the easily led and miss sell to the mentally ill. This process helps to 'de moralise' the agents ie forget about morals and just remember the mission [the targets].
anyway perhaps there might be a bit of service in someone writing a fuller article on the techniques used to build trust for exploitation.
there will always be people who CHOOSE to use their power not for the greater good but for their own good.
Agreed, this is one reason a full and frank confession would be a good thing. It would be interesting to analyse this all properly... it's a fairly unique opportunity in fact.
Also it would be very lulzy.
:-0 CV! I can't believe you are using "women and children" to shield your own motives in this thread. Children are vunerable, yes, but women are equal in this century.
firewalker99
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