Can you really make money spread betting

[Ambrose Ackroyd]

Would you care to elaborate ??

Yes

 

[jungerns]

Yes

Ok son up to you....

Perhaps that why newcomers are afraid to post when receiving superior retorts such as yours-well done...

 

[Ambrose Ackroyd]

Ok son up to you....

Perhaps that why newcomers are afraid to post when receiving superior retorts such as yours-well done...

Isn't it incredibly interesting to note that the use of one totally innocuous word in a one-word post can provoke such an emotive response.

Bit of an art-form really I'd say.

I think I may well make a study of the effect of monosyllabic "one-worders" on the human psyche.

Ok for you Daddy ?

 

[Splitlink]

Can you trade correctly, most of the time ie. get the direction right?

Then you can use a spreadbetting company. They have nothing to do with market direction. Some say that they manipulate. Personally, with more than a decade of spreadbetting behind me, I find that the mistakes made are mine

 

[jungerns]

Isn't it incredibly interesting to note that the use of one totally innocuous word in a one-word post can provoke such an emotive response.

Bit of an art-form really I'd say.

I think I may well make a study of the effect of monosyllabic "one-worders" on the human psyche.

Ok for you Daddy ?

Well you were asked very nicely to elaborate but you choose to offer a childish response for the second time.....

Whats the point in being on a forum just to play "the big I am" ??

So I'll ask again as I'm sure others are interested-can you elaborate please ??

 

[jungerns]

Can you trade correctly, most of the time ie. get the direction right?

Then you can use a spreadbetting company. They have nothing to do with market direction. Some say that they manipulate. Personally, with more than a decade of spreadbetting behind me, I find that the mistakes made are mine

I agree with this entirely-Ive had 3 accounts running on 3 laptops and all prices were within millifractions on all market providers......

Likewise I never seem to have this slippage,freezing,prices rejected that others seem to moan about ??

 

[francisfinley]

I agree with this entirely-Ive had 3 accounts running on 3 laptops and all prices were within millifractions on all market providers......

Likewise I never seem to have this slippage,freezing,prices rejected that others seem to moan about ??

who are you spreadbetting with Jungerns?

 

[jungerns]

who are you spreadbetting with Jungerns?

Currently only Tradefair.....

I have two others which are dormant with tiny sums in each to keep them open...

I find Tradefair excellent with none of the problems I read about on this forum.....

 

[hrughai]

This is how I lost my money. I would look at FTSE 100 shares that had crossed their 40 day moving averages. Then I would look at the MACD to confirm the movement in that direction. I would then look at the candlestick chart for confirmation and also a guide to where to put the stop loss. Then the trade was placed and hey presto, it goes the other way and I lose!!

A friend of mine has been trading for years but will not spread bet, he says it is safer to actually buy the stock and then sell at a higher price and reckons the best way to lose money is to spread bet.

Any thoughts on this and my useless chart analysis method?[/QUOTE

I think it might help if you bet the minimum and hold the position a longer, I think your research is more mid term and your trading for a much shorter period and hitting the loss first. did the positions come good after a few days ?

 

[capitalspreads]

hrughai

your friend is to a certain extent correct in that the risks involved with leveraged trading are far (far) greater than with buying an equity and just holding on to it.

the main problem being that people with leveraged accounts tend to trade with too much exposure and have no room left for the times when their trade goes wrong.

But if your friend is confident in his stock pick there is nothing to stop him/her merely gearing up a few times and increasing the profit potential. (the problem always is that you are also increasing your chances of a bigger loss by the same multiple). It is also difficult to trade some instrument on an intrinsic 1:1 basis (commodities/FX/indices) as they are based on Futures . but you could of course restrict yourself to doing so on your SB/cfd account.

All trading instruments have their pluses and minus. and using one over another is often just a personal choice.... "demonisation" because of some imagined failing .... as some commentators do on these threads,,,, is not a credible argument though.

the majority of people who spread bet lose.. in almost exactly the same percentage as do in FX trading and Futures (and margined equity trading)... this is not a secret . It is a fact. But the point about this is that a percentage do win.. so the answer to the thread is "yes.. you can make money spread betting"

but like gambling on the geegees it is hard... If it was easy everyone would do it !

Simon

 

[e_dash]

I did...then I got cocky, made bad trades, drifted from my plan. Then I got desperate and everything I had learned went out of the window and I cleared out my account in less then a week.

It takes a lot of discipline to SB successfully.

I've taken a couple of months off. This week I'm paper trading then the week after I'm getting back in the game for Round 2. Hopefully I've learned my lesson.

Ultimately though, it's risky. I'm hoping that SB will grow my funds a bit and get me back into the right mindset. Long term I want to move on to something else.

 

[alfaevo111]

I started spread betting a few years ago got beginners luck without really studying how it works. I then lost a lot of my capital and it took along time to build it up. I like yourself started with £300 and was only trading 50p to a £1 per point. It helps to try different stratergies and systems a find one that is good for you where you start to find that you get more winning trades than losers. Money management is important I started of betting £1-£2 per point and it only take a few bad days to wipe out my account. Start small and when you start to see regular profits start to increase you stakes.

 

[Sidekicker]

It is possible to make consistent money but most will not make the dreams they are sold.
...especially all this rubbish about compounding up and making 1 million in a year etc etc.

If you do it properly expect around 50-100% max a year increase in your account but there are plenty of ups and downs.
I made 63% last year but only 8% so far this year.

 

[random12345]

I find a lot of this chat quite grating - I could write you down a 'system' on half a piece of A4 that would turn you an intraday profit. I won't actually do this of course. It's one of mine. Get your own and sweat for it. I 'suffered' this boring stressful geometry for 2 years to develop a winning system. All I will say is that reading price action isn't something most people can do. I can't. I see nothing in a doji except that the market found no direction during that particular bar. I don't see it as a balance of bulls of bears. I see it as a tiny and barely relevant piece of either way information at a randomly closed point of time or tick. Had it closed 3 seconds later it could read completely differently. I don't read price action. Those that do are generally considered the most pure and successful. Hmm. Just strange how Al Brooks took three books to seemingly write very little whereas I can turn the same profit with, as I have said, a few jotted notes (though it took me 24 months to actually come to said conclusion as I mentioned, though I could easily have lucked my way into it quicker). Anyway I digress, pointless rant. Apologies. All I will say is that price action is supposed to be a non lagging indicator, but how many moves except perhaps on the S&P (Brooks' instrument of choice by the way) aren't often complete within a single 5 minute bar (his time frame)!!?!!? Especially these days. I'm annoyed thinking about it.

My thoughts on losing spread betters despite sound technique are that at bigger bets people tend to lose sight of the mathematical reality. Say you had £25,000 in your account and you decided you wanted to bet a £/pt of 1/1000th of this using an always in trading style (how I trade). I.e. £25. Now enter a trade and it runs say 13 pts against you. Your P/L reads -£325. There is some kind of psychological trigger here that doesn't let most new people see this as 13/1000. They see it as £325, which is a lot of money to a beginning trader and seems more than 13/1000 somehow (I have felt this). They panic. They make it worse and chase losses with double, triple, quadruple the bet size. They lose 25% or more and cash out. Yet their original system was just fine and £325 is nothing in the course of things.

If you plan to scale up SB bet sizes to £300 (the most I can get 'filled' on IG forex without calling one of their wideboys up) then you can't think of it as 'real' money. Distract yourself while in a trade if that's what it takes. I still do it to this day. I read, listen to music, remain dispassionate, all the while keeping a written note of the losses I'm incurring without once thinking of them as money until I hit my daily target (usually by 9am.... usually by 7:30 even...).

Pah!

 

[D70]

I find a lot of this chat quite grating - I could write you down a 'system' on half a piece of A4 that would turn you an intraday profit. I won't actually do this of course. It's one of mine. Get your own and sweat for it. I 'suffered' this boring stressful geometry for 2 years to develop a winning system. All I will say is that reading price action isn't something most people can do. I can't. I see nothing in a doji except that the market found no direction during that particular bar. I don't see it as a balance of bulls of bears. I see it as a tiny and barely relevant piece of either way information at a randomly closed point of time or tick. Had it closed 3 seconds later it could read completely differently. I don't read price action. Those that do are generally considered the most pure and successful. Hmm. Just strange how Al Brooks took three books to seemingly write very little whereas I can turn the same profit with, as I have said, a few jotted notes (though it took me 24 months to actually come to said conclusion as I mentioned, though I could easily have lucked my way into it quicker). Anyway I digress, pointless rant. Apologies. All I will say is that price action is supposed to be a non lagging indicator, but how many moves except perhaps on the S&P (Brooks' instrument of choice by the way) aren't often complete within a single 5 minute bar (his time frame)!!?!!? Especially these days. I'm annoyed thinking about it.

My thoughts on losing spread betters despite sound technique are that at bigger bets people tend to lose sight of the mathematical reality. Say you had £25,000 in your account and you decided you wanted to bet a £/pt of 1/1000th of this using an always in trading style (how I trade). I.e. £25. Now enter a trade and it runs say 13 pts against you. Your P/L reads -£325. There is some kind of psychological trigger here that doesn't let most new people see this as 13/1000. They see it as £325, which is a lot of money to a beginning trader and seems more than 13/1000 somehow (I have felt this). They panic. They make it worse and chase losses with double, triple, quadruple the bet size. They lose 25% or more and cash out. Yet their original system was just fine and £325 is nothing in the course of things.

If you plan to scale up SB bet sizes to £300 (the most I can get 'filled' on IG forex without calling one of their wideboys up) then you can't think of it as 'real' money. Distract yourself while in a trade if that's what it takes. I still do it to this day. I read, listen to music, remain dispassionate, all the while keeping a written note of the losses I'm incurring without once thinking of them as money until I hit my daily target (usually by 9am.... usually by 7:30 even...).

Pah!

I like your chat. Even if you are a touch frosty
Agree on much of it.

 

[SavantK]

Have read that... Was good reading

 

[random12345]

I like your chat. Even if you are a touch frosty
Agree on much of it.

Thank you.

I have a few more rants if people want them. I have one now actually. Prepare to be bored.

How ABOUT choosing YOUR instrument of choice rather than the books/forum consensus. Everyone trades the EURUSD because of the generally tight spread and the fact everyone talks about it. Now EURUSD isn't a bad pair, I consider it a middling pair for my style. However I do consider it an indecisive pair. By this I mean it both ranges and trends basically equally as often and therefore will eat you up fast if you only have one predominant style (as I do - I can switch between the two styles sure, but without being at the CME itself, how the hell do you know when to switch in time? Some people will say price action. I don't believe them. Some will say proper money management using DMA only can overcome this inconsistency. I do believe them. Not my style though.). It will trick you into believing you've cracked it and I can nearly promise you that it'll take that money back and more the next day, as if destined to be cruel. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has noticed that you can find a style that backtests fine for a month and it gets busted up the very next day as if ordained by Zeus causing you to lose all confidence in it. There are pairs out there that tend to stick to one style more often than not and are thus much more tradeable in my opinion. Though this is at odds with most people I guess. Normally I find these are pairs where there is a significant inequality in parity with its partner, but not TOO significant. The USDCAD is an example where I consider it too significant. There can be selloffs of Canadian dollars against the trend (persumably by the BoC) that can mean a single 1 minute bar can be as much as 50 pips. Ridiculous and slippage city! Try trading it for 2 weeks and see if you see one (see 23 Oct - 14:00). This can't happen in many pairs. It would take an absolutely vast sale or purchase of Euros/dollars to have the same effect in EURUSD due to the fact huge quantities of both are in circulation so there is a certain security in this pair barring a Greek exit, but by the same logic, it's harder to pick high probability moves intraday unless you have the patience of Moses. So rather than gobble your money up in one go, it'll take it piece by piece. I could squeeze alright money out the EURUSD each day, but it would be a high stress endeavour for me, though of course maybe not for some. Note the 7am PA on the EURUSD move, typical after heavy night trading as there was, but an absolute nightmare to trade at a decent quantity (intraday, nothing long term of course) unless you like to draw 10 pt deep rectangles and trade those... good luck keeping your sanity in the long run. The move at 8:10 would have been a good one of course, but sod it overall.

Anyway, for me personally the EURJPY is the perfect pair. Time and time again it tends to trend heavily then range in very tight ranges intraday - it very rarely sticks between say 20pt S&R like the EURUSD, which I find difficult to spot in time (normally it stops ranging by the time you're convinced that it is...). Anyway, these EURJPY ranges are often so tight that you can even filter them out almost entirely (ever heard of a smooth MA?) and then rejoin the new trend as it develops. It also tends to move (net) around 100pts a day, creating more than a couple of opportunities. I assert that this is because the pair inequality is just right for me (I don't know of course, it's only opinion, what do I really know or need to know about macro Forex trading?). Enough to keep it moving more often than not, not enough to make it go crazy (though it sometimes does around 4am, again, I assume central bank interventions) and not equal enough to stall it completely. It's also one of the few true 24 hour pairs thanks to both currencies being traded heavily on both sides of GMT. In fact it can move as much overnight, but tick very slowly in doing so, perhaps this is IG's crappy feed... but it allows you pick up the tightest spread much easier than during London hours. The spread isn't insignificant on this pair (1.7 min on IG), but this will stop you overtrading perhaps, the only real way to kill a decent sized bankroll. Why don't you have a look at the EURJPY and see if you can pick up on anything? If not, well then maybe it only favours my style, but that's the whole trick ain't it... look at all majors and some minors before settling on the EURUSD by default.

And what about indices (the only appeal for me on these over forex is the usual default fill max of £500 vs £300 in forex)... ah, I cba, that's a rant for another day.

 

[random12345]

Thank you.

I have a few more rants if people want them. I have one now actually. Prepare to be bored.

How ABOUT choosing YOUR instrument of choice rather than the books/forum consensus. Everyone trades the EURUSD because of the generally tight spread and the fact everyone talks about it. Now EURUSD isn't a bad pair, I consider it a middling pair for my style. However I do consider it an indecisive pair. By this I mean it both ranges and trends basically equally as often and therefore will eat you up fast if you only have one predominant style (as I do - I can switch between the two styles sure, but without being at the CME itself, how the hell do you know when to switch in time? Some people will say price action. I don't believe them. Some will say proper money management using DMA only can overcome this inconsistency. I do believe them. Not my style though.). It will trick you into believing you've cracked it and I can nearly promise you that it'll take that money back and more the next day, as if destined to be cruel. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has noticed that you can find a style that backtests fine for a month and it gets busted up the very next day as if ordained by Zeus causing you to lose all confidence in it. There are pairs out there that tend to stick to one style more often than not and are thus much more tradeable in my opinion. Though this is at odds with most people I guess. Normally I find these are pairs where there is a significant inequality in parity with its partner, but not TOO significant. The USDCAD is an example where I consider it too significant. There can be selloffs of Canadian dollars against the trend (persumably by the BoC) that can mean a single 1 minute bar can be as much as 50 pips. Ridiculous and slippage city! Try trading it for 2 weeks and see if you see one (see 23 Oct - 14:00). This can't happen in many pairs. It would take an absolutely vast sale or purchase of Euros/dollars to have the same effect in EURUSD due to the fact huge quantities of both are in circulation so there is a certain security in this pair barring a Greek exit, but by the same logic, it's harder to pick high probability moves intraday unless you have the patience of Moses. So rather than gobble your money up in one go, it'll take it piece by piece. I could squeeze alright money out the EURUSD each day, but it would be a high stress endeavour for me, though of course maybe not for some. Note the 7am PA on the EURUSD move, typical after heavy night trading as there was, but an absolute nightmare to trade at a decent quantity (intraday, nothing long term of course) unless you like to draw 10 pt deep rectangles and trade those... good luck keeping your sanity in the long run. The move at 8:10 would have been a good one of course, but sod it overall.

Anyway, for me personally the EURJPY is the perfect pair. Time and time again it tends to trend heavily then range in very tight ranges intraday - it very rarely sticks between say 20pt S&R like the EURUSD, which I find difficult to spot in time (normally it stops ranging by the time you're convinced that it is...). Anyway, these EURJPY ranges are often so tight that you can even filter them out almost entirely (ever heard of a smooth MA?) and then rejoin the new trend as it develops. It also tends to move (net) around 100pts a day, creating more than a couple of opportunities. I assert that this is because the pair inequality is just right for me (I don't know of course, it's only opinion, what do I really know or need to know about macro Forex trading?). Enough to keep it moving more often than not, not enough to make it go crazy (though it sometimes does around 4am, again, I assume central bank interventions) and not equal enough to stall it completely. It's also one of the few true 24 hour pairs thanks to both currencies being traded heavily on both sides of GMT. In fact it can move as much overnight, but tick very slowly in doing so, perhaps this is IG's crappy feed... but it allows you pick up the tightest spread much easier than during London hours. The spread isn't insignificant on this pair (1.7 min on IG), but this will stop you overtrading perhaps, the only real way to kill a decent sized bankroll. Why don't you have a look at the EURJPY and see if you can pick up on anything? If not, well then maybe it only favours my style, but that's the whole trick ain't it... look at all majors and some minors before settling on the EURUSD by default.

And what about indices (the only appeal for me on these over forex is the usual default fill max of £500 vs £300 in forex)... ah, I cba, that's a rant for another day.

All of the above is intended for intraday spread betters only. I concede it's not relevant to many casual or long term traders.

 

[neil]

Thank you.

I have a few more rants if people want them. I have one now actually. Prepare to be bored.

How ABOUT choosing YOUR instrument of choice rather than the books/forum consensus. Everyone trades the EURUSD because of the generally tight spread and the fact everyone talks about it. Now EURUSD isn't a bad pair, I consider it a middling pair for my style. However I do consider it an indecisive pair. By this I mean it both ranges and trends basically equally as often and therefore will eat you up fast if you only have one predominant style (as I do - I can switch between the two styles sure, but without being at the CME itself, how the hell do you know when to switch in time? Some people will say price action. I don't believe them. Some will say proper money management using DMA only can overcome this inconsistency. I do believe them. Not my style though.). It will trick you into believing you've cracked it and I can nearly promise you that it'll take that money back and more the next day, as if destined to be cruel. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has noticed that you can find a style that backtests fine for a month and it gets busted up the very next day as if ordained by Zeus causing you to lose all confidence in it. There are pairs out there that tend to stick to one style more often than not and are thus much more tradeable in my opinion. Though this is at odds with most people I guess. Normally I find these are pairs where there is a significant inequality in parity with its partner, but not TOO significant. The USDCAD is an example where I consider it too significant. There can be selloffs of Canadian dollars against the trend (persumably by the BoC) that can mean a single 1 minute bar can be as much as 50 pips. Ridiculous and slippage city! Try trading it for 2 weeks and see if you see one (see 23 Oct - 14:00). This can't happen in many pairs. It would take an absolutely vast sale or purchase of Euros/dollars to have the same effect in EURUSD due to the fact huge quantities of both are in circulation so there is a certain security in this pair barring a Greek exit, but by the same logic, it's harder to pick high probability moves intraday unless you have the patience of Moses. So rather than gobble your money up in one go, it'll take it piece by piece. I could squeeze alright money out the EURUSD each day, but it would be a high stress endeavour for me, though of course maybe not for some. Note the 7am PA on the EURUSD move, typical after heavy night trading as there was, but an absolute nightmare to trade at a decent quantity (intraday, nothing long term of course) unless you like to draw 10 pt deep rectangles and trade those... good luck keeping your sanity in the long run. The move at 8:10 would have been a good one of course, but sod it overall.

Anyway, for me personally the EURJPY is the perfect pair. Time and time again it tends to trend heavily then range in very tight ranges intraday - it very rarely sticks between say 20pt S&R like the EURUSD, which I find difficult to spot in time (normally it stops ranging by the time you're convinced that it is...). Anyway, these EURJPY ranges are often so tight that you can even filter them out almost entirely (ever heard of a smooth MA?) and then rejoin the new trend as it develops. It also tends to move (net) around 100pts a day, creating more than a couple of opportunities. I assert that this is because the pair inequality is just right for me (I don't know of course, it's only opinion, what do I really know or need to know about macro Forex trading?). Enough to keep it moving more often than not, not enough to make it go crazy (though it sometimes does around 4am, again, I assume central bank interventions) and not equal enough to stall it completely. It's also one of the few true 24 hour pairs thanks to both currencies being traded heavily on both sides of GMT. In fact it can move as much overnight, but tick very slowly in doing so, perhaps this is IG's crappy feed... but it allows you pick up the tightest spread much easier than during London hours. The spread isn't insignificant on this pair (1.7 min on IG), but this will stop you overtrading perhaps, the only real way to kill a decent sized bankroll. Why don't you have a look at the EURJPY and see if you can pick up on anything? If not, well then maybe it only favours my style, but that's the whole trick ain't it... look at all majors and some minors before settling on the EURUSD by default.

And what about indices (the only appeal for me on these over forex is the usual default fill max of £500 vs £300 in forex)... ah, I cba, that's a rant for another day.

Look forward to it

 

[mike.]

Look forward to it

Same here, Enjoyable read that Random.