Best Prime Minister of modern times?

David Knight

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Aug 20, 2017
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#41
Fantastic summary David. I just hadn't got round to it but think it wouldn't have been much different. Maybe not so much fun to read.

I would have given some plus marks for Thatcher and Churchill but can't think of any outstanding achievements by the others.
The American list would be good...
 

Jason101

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Oct 9, 2008
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#42
These allegations tre false and merely prove that politics is NOT riddled with pedophiles and covered up by others. These ideas are for conspiracy theorists.
Fortescue worked as a whip in Edward Heath’s Tory government between 1970 and 1973


“For anyone with any sense, who was in trouble, would come to the whips and tell them the truth, and say now, I’m in a jam, can you help? It might be debt, it might be… a scandal involving small boys, or any kind of scandal in which, erm er, a member seemed likely to be mixed up in, they’d come and ask if we could help and if we could, we did. And we would do everything we can because we would store up brownie points… and if I mean, that sounds a pretty, pretty nasty reason, but it’s one of the reasons because if we could get a chap out of trouble then, he will do as we ask forever more. ”

Can you count how many laws were broken there?
What completely befuddles me is that he seems to be more embarrassed about blackmailing than pedophilia.
 
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David Knight

Active member
Aug 20, 2017
401
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#43
Fortescue worked as a whip in Edward Heath’s Tory government between 1970 and 1973

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwkOWPauu_A

“For anyone with any sense, who was in trouble, would come to the whips and tell them the truth, and say now, I’m in a jam, can you help? It might be debt, it might be… a scandal involving small boys, or any kind of scandal in which, erm er, a member seemed likely to be mixed up in, they’d come and ask if we could help and if we could, we did. And we would do everything we can because we would store up brownie points… and if I mean, that sounds a pretty, pretty nasty reason, but it’s one of the reasons because if we could get a chap out of trouble then, he will do as we ask forever more. ”

Can you count how many laws were broken there?
What completely befuddles me is that he seems to be more embarrassed about blackmailing than pedophilia.
Thanks I have seen that before.

I really think that to see the world as it really is one needs to stop measuring these people in terms of what we would/could do.


The key, I think, is to see the repeating pattern. A trading forum is a good place to discuss such things. We have a collection of people who are open to seeing patterns. Though it is a human trait in general.

What is the repeating pattern regarding pedophilia in the political establishment?

Denial
Cover Up
Attacks on the accuser/messenger
Intimidation
Enquiries that go nowhere, controlled by the establishment itself.
Mis direction- Look we're doing something- see how many/how fast minor celebs were sent to prison.

What's missing? Apart from a bunch words, no real outrage. No action- None. Tells you a lot.

Where's the 'war' on pedophilia? There's a war on everything else- including free speech and privacy. I think we can see where the priorities of the establishment lie.

Let's just keep in mind the biggest smoking gun and proof how big this really is:

Jimmy Saville.

If that story isn't enough proof, there's really nothing to talk about.
 
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sminicooper

Well-known member
Jun 13, 2016
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#44
Thanks I have seen that before.

I really think that to see the world as it really is one needs to stop measuring these people in terms of what we would/could do.


The key, I think, is to see the repeating pattern. A trading forum is a good place to discuss such things. We have a collection of people who are open to seeing patterns. Though it is a human trait in general.

What is the repeating pattern regarding pedophilia in the political establishment?

Denial
Cover Up
Attacks on the accuser/messenger
Intimidation
Enquiries that go nowhere, controlled by the establishment itself.
Mis direction- Look we're doing something- see how many/how fast minor celebs were sent to prison.

What's missing? Apart from a bunch words, no real outrage. No action- None. Tells you a lot.

Where's the 'war' on pedophilia? There's a war on everything else- including free speech and privacy. I think we can see where the priorities of the establishment lie.

Let's just keep in mind the biggest smoking gun and proof how big this really is:

Jimmy Saville.

If that story isn't enough proof, there's really nothing to talk about.
Paedophilia is unfortunately just like many other "problems" that are inherent in human society. If the problem is big enough and difficult enough then "authority" is always reluctant/slow/incompetent at dealing with it – and that's just another facet of human nature where we all like to deal with the easy problems and leave the difficult ones on one side. Isn't that why we find it difficult to get rid of a failed trade, spend a lot of our energy on the entry – which is "fun" and the reckoning doesn't come until later (just like using your credit card?).

Isn't that why great politicians are as rare as great people: they are the ones that see what needs to be done and make it their business to do it. In the current context I see Prime Minister May as someone who likes being PM but doesn't have much clue as to what needs doing and even less as to how to do it. Contrast this with Thatcher: whether or not you agree her politics, she at least knew what she wanted to do and how to go about it and I suspect her motivation in being PM was not the glories of office but the attraction of a post where she could achieve objectives.

But going back to paedophilia – as in most things, what gets reported and what we get to know about is usually only the tip of the iceberg and there are countless vested interests in having it stay that way. That may sound a bit like conspiracy theory but it's only when these things get exposed you realise how awful it is – just look at the nonsense that was going on in Rotherham and is probably going on elsewhere. Do remember that the frontline of enforcing the law is with the police force who today, just like Lestrade in Sherlock's time are not always the brightest of the bright and they themselves cling on in opposition to having a proper "officer class" like they do in the Armed Forces, which is one of the few places where I have seen efficient management backed up by expertise.

Too often, the enforcement authorities are leaned on by those in political control – but hey that's been going on for centuries hasn't it?
 
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Aug 21, 2004
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#45
Paedophilia is unfortunately just like many other "problems" that are inherent in human society. If the problem is big enough and difficult enough then "authority" is always reluctant/slow/incompetent at dealing with it – and that's just another facet of human nature where we all like to deal with the easy problems and leave the difficult ones on one side. Isn't that why we find it difficult to get rid of a failed trade, spend a lot of our energy on the entry – which is "fun" and the reckoning doesn't come until later (just like using your credit card?).

Isn't that why great politicians are as rare as great people: they are the ones that see what needs to be done and make it their business to do it. In the current context I see Prime Minister May as someone who likes being PM but doesn't have much clue as to what needs doing and even less as to how to do it. Contrast this with Thatcher: whether or not you agree her politics, she at least knew what she wanted to do and how to go about it and I suspect her motivation in being PM was not the glories of office but the attraction of a post where she could achieve objectives.

But going back to paedophilia – as in most things, what gets reported and what we get to know about is usually only the tip of the iceberg and there are countless vested interests in having it stay that way. That may sound a bit like conspiracy theory but it's only when these things get exposed you realise how awful it is – just look at the nonsense that was going on in Rotherham and is probably going on elsewhere. Do remember that the frontline of enforcing the law is with the police force who today, just like Lestrade in Sherlock's time are not always the brightest of the bright and they themselves cling on in opposition to having a proper "officer class" like they do in the Armed Forces, which is one of the few places where I have seen efficient management backed up by expertise.

Too often, the enforcement authorities are leaned on by those in political control – but hey that's been going on for centuries hasn't it?
Principled people in short supply. Which is rather unfortunate given that the whole world seems to be moving ever faster towards moral bankruptcy.
 
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Pat494

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Mar 27, 2004
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#46
Not having been PM I am only guessing but
1. There are powerful pressure groups that get their own way on the PM. The general public has no idea that they even exist.
2. It must be tricky to see the tree needed in the wood. Lots of people giving advice and mostly feathering their own nests.
3. A servile civil service bureaucracy that panders to the PM's wishes in order to keep onside.
4. Being at the top is a very lonely place. The PM is expected to have the best ideas but they are only human. It is often easier to see the problem clearer from afar.
 

Pat494

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#48
Such a question can't be answered with a straight answer, perhaps Angela Merkel...
She is ruining herself with her "open door" policies and letting the far right get their foul repression a boost.
A copy of Blair imho.
 

neil

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Nov 19, 2001
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#49
years go by and nowt changes

She is ruining herself with her "open door" policies and letting the far right get their foul repression a boost.
A copy of Blair imho.
Ah yes -Blair's labour party -supporter of the working class! Well the working classes soon got forgotten under Blair. Practices such as "Zero Hours" and placing employees working for one employer as "self employed" were rife under Blair's watch, as they still are under the Tories. Neither did Blair''s party do much to alleviate the difficulties of younger people trying to buy houses. And, as for the young working person in London hoping to buy a house near his place of work - that person cannot compete in a market pushed upwards by foreign or other property investor. Either wages catch up or property goes down to give such a person a chance to buy, but many will, for personal reasons, wish otherwise. Over the years, that I have witnessed, the gap between wages and house prices has
( excepting some areas) widened considerably. One also sees television programmes boasting of house improvements obtained via auctions and then renting them out for prices which, in other circumstances, the renter could otherwise obtain a mortgage, but they lack a deposit. Neither Labour nor any other party care for such people unless votes are in danger of being lost.
 

barjon

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May 6, 2003
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#50
"........... a proper "officer class" like they do in the Armed Forces, which is one of the few places where I have seen efficient management backed up by expertise.......
You mean the efficiency and expertise that sent countless thousands of men over the top to their death and destruction :(
 

sminicooper

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Jun 13, 2016
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#51
You mean the efficiency and expertise that sent countless thousands of men over the top to their death and destruction :(
No, I didn't mean that! That was 100 years ago and representative of inadequate political/military leadership - you could equally well have quoted the Charge of the Light Brigade. What I'm looking at is day to day management at working levels - anybody who has served in an elite military unit will know what I'm talking about.
 

Pat494

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Mar 27, 2004
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#52
No, I didn't mean that! That was 100 years ago and representative of inadequate political/military leadership - you could equally well have quoted the Charge of the Light Brigade. What I'm looking at is day to day management at working levels - anybody who has served in an elite military unit will know what I'm talking about.
I think what you are trying to tell us is that a united team, works a lot better as a unit than the old fashioned management versus the workers arrangement.
Or am I wrong ?
 

sminicooper

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Jun 13, 2016
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#53
I think what you are trying to tell us is that a united team, works a lot better as a unit than the old fashioned management versus the workers arrangement.
Or am I wrong ?
It's a lot more than that – but that certainly is part of it.
 

barjon

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#54
No, I didn't mean that! That was 100 years ago and representative of inadequate political/military leadership - you could equally well have quoted the Charge of the Light Brigade. What I'm looking at is day to day management at working levels - anybody who has served in an elite military unit will know what I'm talking about.
Aye, but there’s still a load of mis-management in the general services albeit that the elite units are out on their own.

It’s quite interesting that in management generally there are usually several ways to skin the cat to achieve any objective. You’ll usually still get there if you choose the “wrong” way and not gain fantastic advantage if you choose the “right” way. Not so in the military - if you don’t choose the right way disaster is likely to follow.
 

Pat494

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#55
I am not sure the British military is a good example of competence.
They have blundered many times since the charge of the light Brigade.
Even including the Korean war. Someone in Whitehall thought that Korea was tropical and didn't issue blankets, proper gun oil for arctic conditions, no tents etc.
The US has an equally bad record for disasters including The Bay of Pigs, Vietnam etc.