Automated Trading - Is there hope?

[robbert]

I have indeed an account on Zulutrade, admittedly it's out of curiosity only and not active at the moment, as I've found no signal provider with a trustworthy equity curve yet.

According to Zulutrade, there are only about 55 followers who have NOT lost money. Those lucky 55 are listed on their Top Followers list that you can check out here: https://www.zulutrade.com/performance (click on "Followers"). Their profits range from 800% at the top of the list, to 0% at the end at rank 55. So we can assume that all followers below rank 55 have either lost money, or are not long enough at Zulutrade to appear on their list.

When you consider that Zulutrade has about 85000 followers - at least that's the number of users on their forum - we can calculate a probability of 55/85000 = 0.07% of NOT losing money in the long run with Zulutrade.

I congratulate you that you have not lost money in December, but am afraid that this won't give you more hope than all the other followers. All of them win a year or so. That is perfectly normal and just the characteristic of grid trading or similar high risk / high win rate systems. If you still have your money after 2 or 3 years, it's an entirely different matter - then you'll indeed belong to the lucky 55 who survived Zulutrade for some longer time.

Funny probability math - sorry mate that i'm laughing at it, well you need to get more active with zulutrade and actually get to know the platform right, otherwise you would know that not every followers or traders account goes public - there is an option you choose to get copies and/or not.

i am counting my friend, one full year has passed, and getting now into my second one. Obviously, to stay means i am winning :clover:
good luck to find your provider, but looking from the way you writing maybe you should think about getting out of forex, and maybe smth more stable : like mini stocks or even bonds

 

[thepom]

Well my friend, how about applying a little common sense?

Do you really believe that of all the 85000 followers, only 55 enabled public trade results although Zulutrade gives them pips when others copy them? Don't you think that there might be some other reason why Zulutrade can only show 55 successful followers?

And what might that reason be? It seems you're going to find that out the hard way. Anyway, enough said - I wish you a lot of good luck with your Zulutrade adventure!

What do you think are the reasons why only 55 copy traders are showing profits?
I am seriously interested about what you think.

 

[thepom]

thats is totally not true ! check out my past performance, i have published my Dec. real live winning trades....i made quite a lump sum!

Have you ever had an account (at least demo) on zulutrade? seems you did not, so you'd better withold your subjective opinianated observation of your two friends who lost and lousy analysis of traders - we have daytraders, swing traders and scalpers wanna be, and thousand of other in between good or bad traders, lets say do not express opinion where you have no experience ground.

From your use of we in the above sentence, I assume that you work for zulutrade?

Can you explain how this copy trader is ranked 6th highest return? He has not traded for over 6 months and his equity curve is nowhere near 191% annualized return.

 

[thepom]

From your use of we in the above sentence, I assume that you work for zulutrade?

Can you explain how this copy trader is ranked 6th highest return? He has not traded for over 6 months and his equity curve is nowhere near 191% annualized return.

And even looking at the Number One copy trader, (this one here) with a 883% annualized return
Over the last 12 months from Jan 2012 to Jan 2013, his account is dead flat.
Care to explain?

 

[robbert]

From your use of we in the above sentence, I assume that you work for zulutrade?

Can you explain how this copy trader is ranked 6th highest return? He has not traded for over 6 months and his equity curve is nowhere near 191% annualized return.

I am actually getting bored of that accusations.
I am only working for myself. Check out my stats attached. this is my last years performance. The dd was when FCC blew all out accounts. For those long time with the system remember. I am not affiliate, or dunno what else you are implying to, simply a follower and a pationate supporter.
Waht about you? with your 50K supposedly invested account? Come on, show me that you are more than simple talk, cus your posts are getting bit annoying lately.

As for the trader, and the ranking, i really would care less, I only know that this guy has been making me money for the past 12 days that i am following him, and to me this is what only matters!

 

[robbert]

The reason is simply that the signal providers do not earn money with trading, but with attracting gullible followers. This forces them to not trade seriously, but go for high win rates in the 90% range. They achieve that with high risk methods such as grid trading. All those methods lose in the long run, often with a single trade or a few trades that blow the complete account with all accumulated profits. You can see that this happened even to our friend robbert in June 2012. Why he still defends Zulutrade and even continues to risk his money is beyond me, but maybe he won the lottery .

The 55 survivors so far only survived due to extreme luck or because they left Zulutrade in time. For the records, I think that Zulutrade is a honest company who are well aware of the problem and do their best to protect their followers. But obviously to no avail. Its the basic idea of trade copying that causes the problem.

I think they are actually winning money both traders and followers, maybe you guys expect some huge amounts, but lets not forget we are talking about retailed forex and this means a market of small accounts - thus fragmented ROIs of many forms.

 

[thepom]

robbert
From your use of we in the above sentence, I assume that you work for zulutrade?

Can you explain how this copy trader is ranked 6th highest return? He has not traded for over 6 months and his equity curve is nowhere near 191% annualized return.

I have now investigated the quoted returns of most of the 55 "profitable" copy traders (followers) and many of the returns are not adding up at all.

Without listing them all, the example above ( ZuluTrade - Performance ) is one of many that doesn't make any sense at all.
This follower ( ZuluTrade - Performance) is said to be the 6th highest ranked follower (copy trader) with a ROI of 539% over 147 weeks. And a ROI (annualized) of 191%

But if you look at his equity curve he is NOWHERE near any of those returns. In fact he is barely breaking even.
And he stopped trading with Zulutrade some 6 months ago.

Something appears VERY WRONG with their numbers.

 

[BeginnerJoe]

This follower ( ZuluTrade - Performance) is said to be the 6th highest ranked follower (copy trader) with a ROI of 539% over 147 weeks.

This guy ended with a balance of €63.45. If he's the 6th best performer, then I'd say the people on zulutrade are a bunch of loosers.

 

[the hare]

Something appears VERY WRONG with their numbers.

I don't think you are supposed to actually check the authenticity

The idea is you see a big number, and wire one of their dodgy brokers some money

Then you lose it.

They have to make a living too

 

[robbert]

This guy ended with a balance of €63.45. If he's the 6th best performer, then I'd say the people on zulutrade are a bunch of loosers.

AGAIn, these are the followers you are trying to discuss.......and how do you know there are no open positions that might actually alter the final PnL?!.......again, these are not allt he followers, public profile is optional ...
Again guys, you are not even trading on zulutrade, whats the point and how can discuss smth you are NOT using??

 

[BeginnerJoe]

AGAIn, these are the followers you are trying to discuss.......and how do you know there are no open positions that might actually alter the final PnL?!.......again, these are not allt he followers, public profile is optional ...
Again guys, you are not even trading on zulutrade, whats the point and how can discuss smth you are NOT using??

I can see the 6th best performer on zulutrade is a looser when you take into account of the time and effort involved.

If some guy is doing badly and he is following some other guy, then the other guy can't be doing very good either.

 

[robbert]

I can see the 6th best performer on zulutrade is a looser when you take into account of the time and effort involved.

If some guy is doing badly and he is following some other guy, then the other guy can't be doing very good either.

this is a FOLLOWER not a professional TRADER.
you seem to be not understanding the difference!!! follower's settings are so personal as to how much money have put into your account and how you follow with this money.

 

[BeginnerJoe]

this is a FOLLOWER not a professional TRADER.
you seem to be not understanding the difference!!! follower's settings are so personal as to how much money have put into your account and how you follow with this money.

You don't seem to understand if the 6th best performing follower is a looser, then the 1st best performing follower is close to if not also a looser. If none of the followers can make money, what would be the purpose of a website designed for people to follow ?

 

[pboyles]

You don't seem to understand if the 6th best performing follower is a looser, then the 1st best performing follower is close to if not also a looser. If none of the followers can make money, what would be the purpose of a website designed for people to follow ?

Someone else has made a website that you can follow, it helps you make money, in fact there is a guaranteed minimum amount of money you will make.

Management Trainee Jobs | Crew Member Jobs | Careers at McDonalds

 

[BeginnerJoe]

Here's one of my guys doing well making good money. Given some copy practice, Neil will be just as good.

Pro burger Flipping 101 - YouTube

 

[pboyles]

Here's one of my guys doing well making good money. Given some copy practice, Neil will be just as good.

Pro burger Flipping 101 - YouTube

Does he get much slippage flipping that fast?

 

[BeginnerJoe]

Does he get much slippage flipping that fast?

The HFT (high frequency turning-over) ensures the slippage averages out within acceptable tolerances.

 

[thepom]

I have asked on the Zulutrade forum about the bizarre ROI values some weeks ago. They refused to reveal the ROI formula they are using, but admitted that there seems indeed something wrong and they are working on it. So far it has not been fixed.

Their ROI numbers are starting to look like a fantasy to me at the moment.

 

[thepom]

You don't seem to understand if the 6th best performing follower is a looser, then the 1st best performing follower is close to if not also a looser. If none of the followers can make money, what would be the purpose of a website designed for people to follow ?

That seems to be the case. What is the point of following a Signal Providers (SP) trades if the followers are losing?

 

[thepom]

I have asked on the Zulutrade forum about the bizarre ROI values some weeks ago. They refused to reveal the ROI formula they are using, but admitted that there seems indeed something wrong and they are working on it. So far it has not been fixed.

The other problem that they should fix is the serious overstating of the Amount Following statistic on the left hand side panel.

When you look at a Signal Providers number for Amount Following it will say , for example $3,000,000 However, that is the Total amount deposited of every follower (which in most cases is allocated over a number of traders).

For example, if a follower has a total of $50,000 deposited and follows 5 Signal Providers, then each and every one of those SP is credited with $50,000.

So there is a gross overstatement of the Amount Following all the traders.

The numbers are, again, a fantasy to make the zulutrade site bigger than it is.