At crossroads, don't know where to turn...

[crazybrab]

I’m not looking for the ‘holy route’ to trading but a bit of general advice.
The story so far:
1. Started actively following the markets at age 13, spread-betting from age 14.
2. Sailed thru A-Levels, now a Bristol Uni Economics grad.
3. At 18 completed STA Diploma and other random stuff, won uni trading competitions etc.
4. Short stint with an IB bank last summer in algorithmic trading – Thinks didn’t work so I left pretty soon.
5. Currently returned from 6 months of cycling, taking a serious look at my future.

Trading profits and other random income (after uni and travelling) leave me with about £20k. Do I:
1. Go do a masters at CASS, the ICMA Centre etc. and hope to land some sort of job in the city? (yes, I’m aware it wouldn’t be trading for a living, but could help accumulate capital for when I’m ready to move to this phase.
2. Do I apply to trading arcades offering to help finance myself with 20k and see if I benefit from their training and hope that I catch on?
3. Spend some of the 20k on a mentor/trading instructor who can help tweak my methods and psychological faults hoping I could trade on my own from there on?

Time is important to me (just turned 21)– I don’t want to squander 20k on a masters only to have to wait many years before I can have another shot at trading. However, if I **** something up doing 2 or 3, then I’ve screwed any advantage I may have gained over the years and possibly will close doors into the city as I'll be too old with too little on the CV..

Opinions please?

Thanks in advance,

Crazybrab

 

[laptop1]

Go do a masters and get a job in the city. There is plenty of time to trade full time when you are in your 30s, trust me, it soon comes around. In the meantime put 3,000 to 5,000 in to a trading account and trade as small as you can.…but get you masters.

 

[roguetrader]

I'd agree, go do your masters, if you don't, whatever sort of job you think/know you require it for won't be an option, always good to have options. The market will be here waiting.

 

[Trdr]

Education is a 'biggy', and placed on the balance with 'trading' outweighs it, but
"I don’t want to squander [my emphasis] 20k on a masters . . . " hmmm, says something doesn't it.
Not continuing to 'complete your education' now may be an irretrievably lost opportunity, however there are 'mature students'.

I found various vocational testing indicated the same common 'interests', but never became a lawyer for instance. The 'interests' are components of my 'nature' and repeatedly expressed in my every day life.
Whether or not 'gambling' is a subject in such tests, 'gambling' appears in my astrological chart. Gambling isn't the whole reason I'm interested in trading, there's a large analysis/research need that's fulfilled by 'trading'. (I am not a gambler, am I ?)

Contact the Student Services/Psychology Dept of Bristol Uni and ask if you can do some vocational testing. A good astrologer/reading isn't expensive — ask around. If you can't get it done by Bristol Uni, professional testing only may be a few hundred pounds, learn what tests are used (some indicated in book below), which psychologists use what tests, ask around for recommendations of psychologists/testing.

Large amounts of money can be accumulated trading Day-to-Days, meaning trading can be done 'after work', whatever ones employment.
Your "Short stint with an IB bank" may just have been the 'wrong employer' or 'wrong position' ie "algorithmic trading", here's a good read before you make any final decision based on presumed CV content:
' Traders: Risks, Decisions, and Management in Financial Markets '
Mark Fenton-O’Creevy, Nigel Nicholson, Emma Soane, Paul Willman
Oxford University Press 2005 ISBN 0199269483

Not sure I understand you completely, have you traded successfully or not ? it's a yes or no answer.
Seems to me if you've answered yes above, 6 years experience plus £20k, sufficient for a trading account, trade.
"yes, I’m aware it wouldn’t be trading for a living, but could help accumulate capital for when I’m ready to move to this phase." do you want to trade your own money for yourself, or trade for others ?
Trading money for others can be very lucrative, £100k/yr and up — read 'Traders:'

# 2: no experience, ask those who've done it.
see: http://www.trade2win.com/traderpedia/Arcade and use Search
# 3: I don't use TopGun Software's 'Acuity Workstation' but impressed with the demo movies. Available for stocks, futures and forex trading, Chris Donnell has a 'mentoring/training' course for $599 — based on using the TG software, but, trading forex only (need to verify). The guarantee: "Our Trend Following System will make at least 50 pips [1 lot x 50 pips = $500] in two weeks or you do not pay !"
I've yet to demo the software and wouldn't take the course — think I know it all, but the software + feed is 'free' for forex trading based on volume of trades. (IMO, a $3000 account would be sufficient to trade 1 lot at $1000 margin) This is software specific training/mentoring; there may be other charting programs providing similar, there's 'systems' traders offering chat room services for a fee, and free, the Ensign user group comes to mind, Advanced GET users and 'Woodies CCI' group.
As opposed to generic trading mentoring and "tweak my methods and psychological faults", I believe software specific realtime trading training may work better for some.


Finally, as Joseph Campbell proclaimed — 'find your bliss'

find what you really enjoy doing and do/live that.

 

[rog1111]

My advice is to do the Masters if you can, then go for a well paid job with a good City institution. If you don't do it now then it'll be a whole lot harder later, you may live to regret not doing it when you're young. The more you have to fall back on the better.

Good luck
rog1111

 

[Captain Haddock]

It sounds like you have a genuine interest in the markets which is good. My advice would be to start trading asap. If that 20k is purely for trading and you have other means of supporting yourself over a three year period then go for it. (It may take you that long to pull a decent steady income from your trading)

I was in a similar position to you when I was 22. (Engineering, at a different Uni) I decided to trade for myself fulltime instead of doing the masters or landing a job, it was the hardest 3 years of my life to date and I nearly bankrupt myself doing it!

But several years on, I look back and it's all been well worth it, I now make excellent money doing something I absolutely love and I'm so glad I made that step while I was young.

Do it now before you get any commitments, trust me it's hard enough learning the game and worrying about your own bills let alone if you have a wife and child to support as well.

Only my 2p's worth, think carefully about what is right for you before making your decision.

Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[neil]

Go with the law of averages - how many make it in the markets? Get your higher education and a well paid job then trade part time.

 

[TWI]

You will do better in the long run if you can find your way into the city or a multinational trading business. Once you accumulate some experience it will provide a good base for the rest of your trading career and you will find yourself in a much better position to make an informed choice about whether to trade for yourself or stay working for somebody else. You will also have more capital to invest and will wonder how you could have imagined going it alone with a 20k account. Do the maths and work out what compounded return you will need before you live a comfortable life generating a good living from that 20k..It is not a realistic aim.
Arcades are an option but not one I would invest 20k in if it was the only stake I had. The superstars are one in many and most struggle to pay their costs, living expenses and maintain their account let alone grow it. This is another option that will always be open to you in the future should you wish it.
Do not under any circumstances give a single penny to a self styled trading "guru", they are interested in your money more than your trading future.
I have been in the markets for many years both as a professional in the city and in my own trading company. If I was in your position I would without hesitation be completing my education and applying to each and every reputable trading company I could find out about. You better be proactive if you want to get the break, it is a very competative marketplace full of well qualified and hungry wannabes. You gotta fight and keep fighting, do not be put off by refusals. Good luck.

 

[crazybrab]

Thanks all for the excellent replies. The majority on here agree that it would be better to continue my education, go get a job in the city. Captain Haddock - thanks for your advice. Whilst it goes against the crowd, it really reconfirms my personal thoughts. I've always been a strong and motivated individual so would feel most at home if I were my own boss. With regards to trading arcades, I'll probably follow the advice of T2W members and not follow this route for the time of being.

I shall continue to consider my options:
1. Masters degree
2. City job
3. Self-employed

and will keep this board posted on the route I decide to take. I'm very tempted to go do a masters as I could always turn to to full-time trading in little over a year whilst keeping my options open.


Regards,

Crazybrab

 

[karmit]

I’m not looking for the ‘holy route’ to trading but a bit of general advice.
The story so far:
1. Started actively following the markets at age 13, spread-betting from age 14.
2. Sailed thru A-Levels, now a Bristol Uni Economics grad.
3. At 18 completed STA Diploma and other random stuff, won uni trading competitions etc.
4. Short stint with an IB bank last summer in algorithmic trading – Thinks didn’t work so I left pretty soon.
5. Currently returned from 6 months of cycling, taking a serious look at my future.

Trading profits and other random income (after uni and travelling) leave me with about £20k. Do I:
1. Go do a masters at CASS, the ICMA Centre etc. and hope to land some sort of job in the city? (yes, I’m aware it wouldn’t be trading for a living, but could help accumulate capital for when I’m ready to move to this phase.
2. Do I apply to trading arcades offering to help finance myself with 20k and see if I benefit from their training and hope that I catch on?
3. Spend some of the 20k on a mentor/trading instructor who can help tweak my methods and psychological faults hoping I could trade on my own from there on?

Time is important to me (just turned 21)– I don’t want to squander 20k on a masters only to have to wait many years before I can have another shot at trading. However, if I **** something up doing 2 or 3, then I’ve screwed any advantage I may have gained over the years and possibly will close doors into the city as I'll be too old with too little on the CV..

Opinions please?

Thanks in advance,

Crazybrab

"spread-betting from age 14"?!!

which firm let you open an accout with them? Shouldn't you be 18+ to open a spread betting
account?

 

[karmit]

"spread-betting from age 14"?!!

which firm let you open an accout with them? Shouldn't you be 18+ to open a spread betting
account?

Having said that.. I tend to agree with TWI...

DON'T slip up on your education...

 

[crazybrab]

"spread-betting from age 14"?!!

which firm let you open an accout with them? Shouldn't you be 18+ to open a spread betting
account?

Yes you should - this does not mean you cannot trade at all. My parents were a great help to me initially. My parents opened spread-betting accounts and financed them with my money. In effect, I traded my own money thru my parents.

It is pretty much impossible for a 14 year old to get any exposure to the financial markets without the help of parents or another adult.


Crazybrab

 

[chrissutch]

Crazybrab.[/B" For educational purposes only do not take this as advice". ]Education is not a trip i'ts journey without an ending destination. At 21 you don'teven know the half of it, but you will know in your life time far than I ever will know.
You've given some options of what you think you might like to do but you haven't stated what you want to achieve.
I don't want to be a trader, I want to be rich, I don't go to the shop for a drill, I go to the shop because I need a hole.
I envy you because you took to trading so early in life. The path that you are taking will structure the rest of your life. You certainly will gain Knowledge and prestige sitting all these exams and gaining all these qualifications if managing other peoples money is up your street. But to be totally honest with you in this ( I can't call it a game) profession the best education is the school of hard knocks. You are going to loose money" REAL MONEY " which is where your metal is really going to get tested. But having said that your qualifications will always get you a job if you go broke on your personal trading.
I left school with no qualifications and worked on a building site, I got into trading at the age 30 and spent 5 years dry trading, I now spend at least 3 hours a day on my education whether trading or personal developement and I make more money than any of my old confederates by trading a few hours a day and have far more time to do the things I want in life.
So grab life by the kahuna's and do all of it. Just don't forget trading is a means to an end not an end to a means.

 

[ewilcox]

I was wondering that as well.... anyway this is a no brainer. Masters first then whatever you want to do. By all means day trade your 20k through your masters but get the education and the rest will follow. IMHO...

 

[crazybrab]

chrissutch, thanks for your excellent post. Spot-on in my opinion.

You are quite right -I have not stated what I want to achieve. Lets put things this way (perhaps more specific advice will be posted here).

1. At the age of 50 I sure don't want to be a director at some city institution on a seven-figure pay packet. For me that would be one squandered life. All the money, but you have no personal satisfaction. I certainly don't call the golf course, gym, fast car, destroyed liver etc. the rewarding way to live. I'm happy to put in many more hours as a private trader and scrape a living as this would give me complete freedom.
2. I don't ever want to end up a geek with too many pieces of paper. (The little I have I reckon is too much already!) When you become over-qualified, you come to rely purely on your papers to get you anywhere, and ultimately become institutionalised.

The only rationale for doing a masters would be a backup plan (well I would be pretty screwed if I ever had to use it), to get me into a city job to help increase my starting capital and, well, allow me to be a student for another year!

 

[crazybrab]

Also would like to add:

I've seen so many of my contemporaries from uni go to IBs, all are 'wannabe' traders yet very few actually got into front office, yet alone trading. Many are giving up hopes of making a living from trading and are settling in as mouse jockeys. Might just as well put the time that I have to my long-term goals and not some interim project...

 

[chrissutch]

The only rationale for doing a masters would be a backup plan (well I would be pretty screwed if I ever had to use it), to get me into a city job to help increase my starting capital and, well, allow me to be a student for another year!

A bit like day trading with stop losses don't you think.

Fail to plan and you plan to fail.