Are all my spread bet profits tax free?

[barjon]

What concerns me jon is that the SB firms - who presumably have a clear line of communication with HMRC - can't be so clear as you are.

Well just go to the HMRC search and stick in spread betting and see the guidance they come up with. It's pretty clear cut and I've kept on posting it.

However deviously FXMO seems think HMRC operate they do not give give pretty clear guidance (with legal precedent) on the one hand then chuckle behind their hands and flout it whenever they fancy.

 

[Forexmospherian]

Tomo

.....and I've explained previously those "individual circumstances". Otherwise HMRC are bound by law and precedent. That's not to say the position can't change in the future but it can't change merely at the whim of HMRC.

I really think you are deliberately missing the main points - maybe for a reason?

I will not attempt another analogue - as I don't seem to be explaining the important part of this whole argument as clearly as I would like.

Jon - have you ever heard of the phrase - "you can be right - but you can still be dead" ?

If you have then you will follow my "drift" - if not I maybe will leave it to others to try and explain were I am coming from

As it stands - according to the letter of the Tax law - spreadbetting is tax free.

The HMRC will now way want a case of taxing a spreadbetter purely on his winnings coming to court - as it would have massive implications

Its not done that way - it done via "changing the goalposts" and working out what the spreadbetter should have been paying and then look for that type of money from alternative means the classic being if you are a ful-ltime spread better with no other form of income and not paying any other form of taxation - then you are trading - not spreadbetting - your winnings are income - and income can be taxed.

Its a clever change of technical terminology- by removing your classification as a spreadbetting punter to a professional trader.

Will the spreadbetting company support you ?

Of course not - they have covered themselves with disclaimers - and after all they would prefer you to go elsewhere.

Will the HMRC do a deal with you - rather than go to court ?

Of course they will ;-)

BUT

It will still cost you


Regards


F

 

[tomorton]

I've seen the HMRC advice jon, followed your links and did own Google searches. Its just that I don't trust them.

It would be more than nice to hear from someone with £100k SB profits who was pronounced tax-immune. Or someone with no job or business but £20k SB profits who was taxed on the £20k.

Until then, we're all talking in theory aren't we?

 

[barjon]

I'm fed up trying to deal with fanciful bollox you post FXMO. Have it your way - it's all bloody well taxable so you better get your pennies counted - if you actually make any of course. Happy days.

 

[barjon]

I've seen the HMRC advice jon, followed your links and did own Google searches. Its just that I don't trust them.

It would be more than nice to hear from someone with £100k SB profits who was pronounced tax-immune. Or someone with no job or business but £20k SB profits who was taxed on the £20k.

Until then, we're all talking in theory aren't we?

No, we're not talking theory because no-one is being taxed on their SB winnings. You don't think that given the publicity about it someone might have moaned about it if they were.

Course, if you believe our friend, they have all been gagged as part of the settlement. Ho, ho.

 

[Forexmospherian]

I'm fed up trying to deal with fanciful bollox you post FXMO. Have it your way - it's all bloody well taxable so you better get your pennies counted - if you actually make any of course. Happy days.

Its not my way Jon and not what I want - I have been there and had to swear on oath - and amongst the checks they carried out on me - I had hand over a copy my home insurance policy - so they could see what insurance cover I had for the home safe - etc etc

Don't believe me at all - let it all be a fantasy

Good trading to you

Regards

F

 

[malaguti]

and amongst the checks they carried out on me - I had hand over a copy my home insurance policy

NO WAY!! your home insurance policy. They did a check against that most sacred of documents, the home insurance policy. That is bad form. I take back everything I ever thought about the tax man.
You poor thing, you must have been ridiculed

 

[Forexmospherian]

NO WAY!! your home insurance policy. They did a check against that most sacred of documents, the home insurance policy. That is bad form. I take back everything I ever thought about the tax man.
You poor thing, you must have been ridiculed

I did not understand why the wanted to see my home insurance policy

However - I found out afterwards - - anyone who has or had access to large amounts of cash would have say their safe contents covered for say £30k or £50k or more and it would show on the policy.

In my case it was fairly standard - ( ie contents value only £5k ) and so supported my case that I was not withdrawing large amounts via spreadbetting accounts I had not declared or under other people's name.

The HMRC know all the tricks - after all - it's their job and have many ways you want not think of to discovering weaknesses etc in any person's story.

Remember you are guilty with the HMRC -until you can prove you are innocent - not the other way around.

They are clever - not all the guys with the brains have left and gone over to the business side for greater rewards - as far as I am concerned - that's good -

Good Trading

Regards

F

 

[MajorMagnuM]

Only One thing I am sure about.

Richard Branson would never have partnered anyone who couldn't sort out his farthers from his furthers.

Thank the lord i'm on 12 hr shifts....reading this tripe would do my bonce in !!!!

i not sure that is the criteria R.Branson would use to choose staff?!? I imagine (i dont actually know) he assesses more than a candidates ability to spell accurately all of the time when recruiting?

 

[timsk]

I really think you are deliberately missing the main points - maybe for a reason?

Three words sprung to mind FoMo: pot, kettle, black!

 

[Forexmospherian]

Three words sprung to mind FoMo: pot, kettle, black!

LOL

Maybe it worth mentioning that to the tax experts at -

PWC - Delloite's - KPMG - EY and Grant Thornton UK - besides several Employment Law specialists?

Regards


F

 

[barjon]

Its not my way Jon and not what I want - I have been there and had to swear on oath - and amongst the checks they carried out on me - I had hand over a copy my home insurance policy - so they could see what insurance cover I had for the home safe - etc etc

Don't believe me at all - let it all be a fantasy

Good trading to you

Regards

F

ok fxmo. When HMRC had finished their investigation they would have assessed you for the tax they considered due. That assessment would have been backed by a schedule showing the sources of funds which they deemed taxable.

Presumably your advisers, if they knew their job, would have asked HMRC specifically why that schedule included spreadbetting income when their guidance says it is tax free. Duty bound to answer that specific question, HMRC would have done so and explained why, in your circumstances, they deemed it taxable.

So all you have to do to prove your point and show me up as a total twit is to post suitably redacted pics of all that. That'd be game, set and match.

 

[alexaherself]

It's interesting: there are examples in this very forum, from more than 10 years ago, of exactly the same conversation as this one.

There was exactly the same disagreement on this silly subject in 2004/5 as there is in 2014/5.

Meanwhile, over all that time and longer, nobody posting in the T2W forum or in any other forum in which this subject is regularly discussed has ever been able to adduce any evidence at all of one single UK taxpayer ever having being assessed for income tax on his/her spread-betting winnings.

I don't know what inferences, if any, anyone else draws from that, but it tells me something, anyway.

 

[Forexmospherian]

It's interesting: there are examples in this very forum, from more than 10 years ago, of exactly the same conversation as this one.

There was exactly the same disagreement on this silly subject in 2004/5 as there is in 2014/5.

Meanwhile, over all that time and longer, nobody posting in the T2W forum or in any other forum in which this subject is regularly discussed has ever been able to adduce any evidence at all of one single UK taxpayer ever having being assessed for income tax on his/her spread-betting winnings.

I don't know what inferences, if any, anyone else draws from that, but it tells me something, anyway.

ok fxmo.

..........

So all you have to do to prove your point and show me up as a total twit is to post suitably redacted pics of all that. That'd be game, set and match.

OK

First point - all changed from 2004 /5 and 2015

Next point - This is NOT me saying this .........

I am no tax expert or expert employment laywer etc etc - I am just a trader who PAID for advise when it happened to me.

The advise I was given in 2008 / 09 as now been supported by other industry experts as more and more cases have come to light.

I am not wanting to make you Jon - or anybody else - look a "total twit" as you say - let the tax experts and lawyers tell do that

Can I repeat - Spreadbetting is TAX FREE - but - NOT FOR EVERY SPREADBETTER

I don't know whether you have read the article in the Times by a specialist Lawyer I have named here and showed his copy - but my own advice for me as an individual was - either take it to the courts - and spend money to prove you are being victimised etc - or except the penalties and fines ( different to the tax amount) and move on

My accountancy advice came from KPMG Birmingham and they advice all professional full time FX traders who are not in other employment and paying income tax and Paye the same - and this is also the case with 4 other major Accountancy groups.

I must emphasise -I am not making all this up - why would i ???

HMRC will not want a straight forward test case on this matter - and would there upmost to delay it and put pressure on the person (s) involved to agree a separate fine /penalty and for it not to be declared as an tax on spreadbetting

85% of all spreadbetter will have no problem - as they are not full time traders and have employment - and more than likely lose anyway

More information to follow - when I receive it

Regards


F

 

[barjon]

.............Next point - This is NOT me saying this .........

Oh, then why did you say this in your earlier post (14) I got in trouble when i tried to place more of my profits through spread betting - whilst still paying tax on other income that was via FX trading - but was not via a spread betting company.

Certainly made it sound as if it was a personal experience and not just "advice" from all and sundry "experts". I suppose there's an outside chance you may have been caught by the "associated activity" caveat I mentioned, but I doubt it.

Mind you, I didn't expect anything but obfuscation when I asked you for your evidence.

In any event, as Alexa says, where's ANY evidence that anyone, but anyone, has been taxed on their spreadbetting income. Until that time comes all the "experts" in the world can nod their heads as wisely as they like but it won't change the facts.

 

[timsk]

. . . Until that time comes all the "experts" in the world can nod their heads as wisely as they like but it won't change the facts.

Hi Jon,
Sadly, I very much doubt that pesky little things like evidence and facts will hamper FoMo's desire to bore us all to tears by repeatedly telling the same tired ol' story again and again. I can't read his posts any more: it's the forum equivalent of watching Groundhog Day over and over again.

In the highly unlikely event that he does manage to come up with a single shred of real evidence - perhaps someone would be kind enough to let me know!

Tim.

 

[barjon]

I'm fed up trying to deal with fanciful bollox you post FXMO. Have it your way - it's all bloody well taxable so you better get your pennies counted - if you actually make any of course. Happy days.

Yes, tim, I did bow out slightly intemperately a few post ago and should have stuck by that. Oh well........................

 

[Forexmospherian]

Oh, then why did you say this in your earlier post (14) I got in trouble when i tried to place more of my profits through spread betting - whilst still paying tax on other income that was via FX trading - but was not via a spread betting company.

Certainly made it sound as if it was a personal experience and not just "advice" from all and sundry "experts". I suppose there's an outside chance you may have been caught by the "associated activity" caveat I mentioned, but I doubt it.

Mind you, I didn't expect anything but obfuscation when I asked you for your evidence.

In any event, as Alexa says, where's ANY evidence that anyone, but anyone, has been taxed on their spreadbetting income. Until that time comes all the "experts" in the world can nod their heads as wisely as they like but it won't change the facts.

Tim says its like "Groundhog day " - and I feel I am taking to people who are either not listening - or placing a brickwall in front of what I am saying

Now Jon - you have lead yourself to the actual crux of the matter - and I am pleased you have said it - Thank goodness ;-)

Certainly made it sound as if it was a personal experience and not just "advice" from all and sundry "experts". I suppose there's an outside chance you may have been caught by the "associated activity" caveat I mentioned, but I doubt it.

1 -it was a personal experience - is that clear ??

2. the "associated activity" caveat is the answer to the HMRC's problem - and i am sure you have known that all the way through this thread

Please supply your version of what "associated activity " actual means ?

Then i I will tell you how it covered my own personal situation - because it is not what I think you are thinking

So you admit - the HMRC will alway's cover themselves with Cavaet's ?

Or are you still saying yourself 100% of all people who spreadbet over the age of 18 yrs old winning will be able to enjoy tax free winnings - because if you are - you are now contradicting even your own comments

Also - and I dont know the answer to this question myself - are all the "associated activity " clauses listed on the HMRC's website ?

Looking forward now to how you answer this Jon

Thank you

Regards


F

 

[timsk]

Tim says its like "Groundhog day " - and I feel I am taking to people who are either not listening - or placing a brickwall in front of what I am saying . . .

Unbelievable comment, staggering, utterly breath-taking.
In all seriousness FoMo, if we're not 'listening' or 'placing a brick wall in front of what you are saying' - what on earth do you think you are you doing? Second thoughts, don't answer that.

 

[barjon]

Tim says its like "Groundhog day " - and I feel I am taking to people who are either not listening - or placing a brickwall in front of what I am saying

Now Jon - you have lead yourself to the actual crux of the matter - and I am pleased you have said it - Thank goodness ;-)

Certainly made it sound as if it was a personal experience and not just "advice" from all and sundry "experts". I suppose there's an outside chance you may have been caught by the "associated activity" caveat I mentioned, but I doubt it.

1 -it was a personal experience - is that clear ??

2. the "associated activity" caveat is the answer to the HMRC's problem - and i am sure you have known that all the way through this thread

Please supply your version of what "associated activity " actual means ?

Then i I will tell you how it covered my own personal situation - because it is not what I think you are thinking

So you admit - the HMRC will alway's cover themselves with Cavaet's ?

Or are you still saying yourself 100% of all people who spreadbet over the age of 18 yrs old winning will be able to enjoy tax free winnings - because if you are - you are now contradicting even your own comments

Also - and I dont know the answer to this question myself - are all the "associated activity " clauses listed on the HMRC's website ?

Looking forward now to how you answer this Jon

Thank you

Regards


F

How did I know you'd pounce on that bit? Suits you down to the ground doesn't it? And all so we'll be convinced that you are one of the best traders in the world and making such a fortune as to turn HMRC green eyed with envy. The caveat is explained in the legal precedent if you care to read it and it is, of course, something I've repeated again and again.

Nope, you won't produce evidence of your self proclaimed trading prowess and you won't produce evidence of HMRC's taxing your spreadbetting.

Words, words, words are no substitutes I'm afraid.

Produce the evidence - on both counts - and I'll be the first to praise you to the skies and eat humble pie. In the meantime I resign from the field and leave you the self proclaimed victor as well as the self proclaimed master trader.