Are all my spread bet profits tax free?

timsk

Legendary member
7,611 2,383
Hi FoMo,
Another example in another unrelated industry - is mobile phone contracts . . .
off topic and unhelpful! Let's stick to spread betting - pretty please.

All spreadbetting companies will in their small print protect themselves - quite easily - because regulations can change quite quickly.
Well, if you'd care to look at the small print of ETX Capital and highlight the part that relates to the claim prominently displayed on their website clearly saying that spread betting profits ate tax free - that would be helpful. If SB companies make a false claim in their marketing to attract new business and then negate themselves in their small print, that's unacceptable and, as I've said repeatedly, must fall foul of advertising standards, trading standards and the FCA. Otherwise, they may as well say anything to attract new business - make up any ol' bollox - and then cover themselves in the small print, lol!

It is not in the interest of the UK government to tax spread betters or gamblers as long as over 75% continue to lose. If this was to change over the next 2 -5 years - which I very much doubt will happen - then it may be reviewed again.
So, are you now saying that spread betting is tax free? It's either 100% tax free or it isn't.

I had advice of a tax expert at KPMG in Birmingham - along with a friend who worked at Grant Thornton - both very large reputable accountancy firms.

My situation was complex and far from the ordinary - not helped by my previous run ins with the old IR offices from the late 80's.

As I am sure you know Tim - nothing regarding tax laws is 100% black or white - in fact it reminds me of trading in that sense ;-)
I can't comment on your personal experiences as I know nothing about your trading activities or tax affairs. Unless you can provide a copy of a letter from HMRC that clearly states that you have to pay tax on profits made via spread betting - then I can only conclude - like barjon - that either you were poorly advised by your accountants or there are other factors you're not telling us about that would explain it.
Tim.
 
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Forexmospherian

Legendary member
39,928 3,301
Hi FoMo,

off topic and unhelpful! Let's stick to spread betting - pretty please.


Well, if you'd care to look at the small print of ETX Capital and highlight the part that relates to the claim prominently displayed on their website clearly saying that spread betting profits ate tax free - that would be helpful. If SB companies make a false claim in their marketing to attract new business and then negate themselves in their small print, that's unacceptable and, as I've said repeatedly, must fall foul of advertising standards, trading standards and the FCA. Otherwise, they may as well say anything to attract new business - make up any ol' bollox - and then cover themselves in the small print, lol!


So, are you now saying that spread betting is tax free? It's either 100% tax free or it isn't.


I can't comment on your personal experiences as I know nothing about your trading activities or tax affairs. Unless you can provide a copy of a letter from HMRC that clearly states that you have to pay tax on profits made via spread betting - then I can only conclude - like barjon - that either you were poorly advised by your accountants or there are other factors you're not telling us about that would explain it.
Tim.


Certainly not poorly advised by 2 top accountancy firms

I think you are not following what I have already said and trying to get a "yes or no" answer - when it fact its NOT black or white.

I repeat - spreadbetting is tax free for maybe 90 -95% of all traders.

However - it is not tax free for professional type gamblers who are full time and are not paying any tax from other revenues they earn outside trading.

I will also repeat you have no need to worry if you have a clean tax history - are not a full time spread better and pay tax to the HMRC from other sources of revenue.

I hope that clarifies it more

Regards


F
 

barjon

Legendary member
10,705 1,809
Certainly not poorly advised by 2 top accountancy firms

I think you are not following what I have already said and trying to get a "yes or no" answer - when it fact its NOT black or white.

I repeat - spreadbetting is tax free for maybe 90 -95% of all traders.

However - it is not tax free for professional type gamblers who are full time and are not paying any tax from other revenues they earn outside trading.

I will also repeat you have no need to worry if you have a clean tax history - are not a full time spread better and pay tax to the HMRC from other sources of revenue.

I hope that clarifies it more

Regards


F

Nope, sorry fxmo. You really musn't mislead people. I don't know what you'd been doing to incur the wrath of HMRC (as they are now) but I'm surprised that a man of your talents (self proclaimed) would deign to stoop to spreadbetting at all :)

CG56105 from HMRC defines spread-betting and its tax free status.

BIM 22017 is the relevant precedent case law about professional gamblers who derive their income from gambling as their sole means of livlihood. You will note the slight sting in the tail I talked about.
 

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  • CG56105 - Futures financial futures financial spread betting - Google Chrome_2012-01-10_09-36-28.gif
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  • BIM22017 - Trade Exceptions & alternatives Betting and gambling - the professi_2012-01-10_11-33-.gif
    BIM22017 - Trade Exceptions & alternatives Betting and gambling - the professi_2012-01-10_11-33-.gif
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Forexmospherian

Legendary member
39,928 3,301
Nope, sorry fxmo. You really musn't mislead people. I don't know what you'd been doing to incur the wrath of HMRC (as they are now) but I'm surprised that a man of your talents (self proclaimed) would deign to stoop to spreadbetting at all :)

CG56105 from HMRC defines spread-betting and its tax free status.

BIM 22017 is the relevant precedent case law about professional gamblers who derive their income from gambling as their sole means of livlihood. You will note the slight sting in the tail I talked about.


Sorry Barjon

I am confident i am 100% correct with regards to spreadbetting the FX market in the UK.

You case history is far too old to be relevent for today - in fact several cases since 2010 and I will find them out

Like I say - and I know I am 100% correct - it is tax free for maybe 90 -95% of all traders - but it is NOT tax free for 100% of all traders - the traders who are earning a full time income - AND not paying any tax from other sources of income are the ones that fall into the "grey area" and In my own case I have actually had to pay a negoiated settlement - that would have turned out far cheaper then taking my own case throught the courts.

I have personal experience. I have to swear on oath 3 times whilst being questioned at Birmingham's main tax offices in the City Centre - and I can assure it is not a black and white straight cut afffair as you are maybe trying to portrait.

In fact if you were to contact say 3 different tax offices around the UK this week - I would be very surprised if you received a clear answer off any of them

Regards


F

PS - Maybe you need to read this link as well Barjon -

http://www.tradingspreadbetting.com/trade/trading-and-taxes

Circa 2014
 
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barjon

Legendary member
10,705 1,809
Sorry Barjon

I am confident i am 100% correct with regards to spreadbetting the FX market in the UK.

You case history is far too old to be relevent for today - in fact several cases since 2010 and I will find them out

Like I say - and I know I am 100% correct - it is tax free for maybe 90 -95% of all traders - but it is NOT tax free for 100% of all traders - the traders who are earning a full time income - AND not paying any tax from other sources of income are the ones that fall into the "grey area" and In my own case I have actually had to pay a negoiated settlement - that would have turned out far cheaper then taking my own case throught the courts.

I have personal experience. I have to swear on oath 3 times whilst being questioned at Birmingham's main tax offices in the City Centre - and I can assure it is not a black and white straight cut afffair as you are maybe trying to portrait.

In fact if you were to contact say 3 different tax offices around the UK this week - I would be very surprised if you received a clear answer off any of them

Regards


F

PS - Maybe you need to read this link as well Barjon -

http://www.tradingspreadbetting.com/trade/trading-and-taxes

Circa 2014

ok - i give up. I can only assume that there are no appeals listed in Tribunal because either no-one has yet found a way to make a living from spreadbetting, or HMRC haven't sought to tax anyone who has.

ps: that link is just someone taking a view not anything "official"
 

tomorton

Legendary member
8,434 1,364
BIM 22017 is the relevant precedent case law about professional gamblers who derive their income from gambling as their sole means of livlihood. You will note the slight sting in the tail I talked about.


I like the wording this BIM 22017 uses. I think in future I shall say trading is not an addiction, its my vocation.
 

counter_violent

Legendary member
11,333 3,037
Sorry Barjon

I am confident i am 100% correct with regards to spreadbetting the FX market in the UK.

You case history is far too old to be relevent for today - in fact several cases since 2010 and I will find them out

Like I say - and I know I am 100% correct - it is tax free for maybe 90 -95% of all traders - but it is NOT tax free for 100% of all traders - the traders who are earning a full time income - AND not paying any tax from other sources of income are the ones that fall into the "grey area" and In my own case I have actually had to pay a negoiated settlement - that would have turned out far cheaper then taking my own case throught the courts.

I have personal experience. I have to swear on oath 3 times whilst being questioned at Birmingham's main tax offices in the City Centre - and I can assure it is not a black and white straight cut afffair as you are maybe trying to portrait.

In fact if you were to contact say 3 different tax offices around the UK this week - I would be very surprised if you received a clear answer off any of them

Regards


F

Tax office largely doesn't have a clue when it comes to grey areas, which is why they are always behind the curve when pitted against creative accounting. The more complex a taxation system becomes, the more ineffective HMRC is at dealing with investigation and collection. We only need look at what has happened to the group who have risen to the top. They can afford to employ the best advisors working for these top accounting firms, but conversely, HMRC does not have unlimited resources to continue playing the chasing game. Interestingly, these top advisors are usually the ones who started off working for HMRC, then swap sides and become the advisors to those who can afford to continue play the game.

I certainly don't agree with your figures regarding how many spread bettors that would have anything to worry about. So this 90-95% figure you keep banding about, well it's just tosh innit !
 
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Forexmospherian

Legendary member
39,928 3,301
ok - i give up. I can only assume that there are no appeals listed in Tribunal because either no-one has yet found a way to make a living from spreadbetting, or HMRC haven't sought to tax anyone who has.

That is how the Tax office can win many of their cases against individuals who are not multi millionaires ( i was 10 years plus ago - but not nowadays I am not - sorry to say)

As they say "The Law is like the Ritz hotel" - It open to all - but really only the rich can afford to use it.

In my own case - if I had wanted to take it further and fight it in a tribunal or even in the European courts etc etc - it would have cost tens of thousands to mount the case and carry it through etc etc.

The HMRC - know this and say to people quite clearly - if you are not happy - please take it further - but meanwhile you pay the tax owing now and then if you take it through the courts it might take a year or more and meanwhile they will stall it and if you dont win - you will face beside your own legal costs - those of the HMRC as well - and they will not be just a few thousand pounds - a you might guess.

If you do win - then OK - you can claim a full refund plus all your costs etc etc

Meanwhile - would you like to negoiate with us etc etc etc- rather than go through a year or two of uncertainty along with further investigation going back further than just the last 3 or 5 years etc etc.

I am a tough cookie and hate bullies - but I know when I am beaten and this case - I made an advised and calculated decision that they were nice people and changed tack completely - much to the disappointment of my lawyers - who maybe were looking forward to earning some nice fees ;-)

Regards


F
 
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Forexmospherian

Legendary member
39,928 3,301
Tax office largely doesn't have a clue when it comes to grey areas, which is why they are always behind the curve when pitted against creative accounting. The more complex a taxation system becomes, the more ineffective HMRC is at dealing with investigation and collection. We only need look at what has happened to the group who have risen to the top. They can afford to employ the best advisors working for these top accounting firms, but conversely, HMRC does not have unlimited resources to continue playing the chasing game. Interestingly, these top advisors are usually the ones who started off working for HMRC, then swap sides and become the advisors to those who can afford to continue play the game.

I certainly don't agree with your figures regarding how many spread bettors that would have anything to worry about. So this 90-95% figure you keep banding about, well it's just tosh innit !

Hi CV

Well - what do you reckon - 75 - 80% or even 90% of all spreadbetters will lose anyway - so they will not have to worry about tax on their annual profits.

The HMRC and the government and the spread betting companies all know this anyway.

Then if you get say 10 -15 % making say £5 - 25K per annum from spreadbetting - its not worth the hassle - but if its just say 2 or 3% making over say £50K or £100k+pa and not paying any tax - well they are the ones who will be chased and cornered

In the UK in terms of actual people - would this add up to even 500 people ??

I don't know to answer that one ?


Regards


F
 

counter_violent

Legendary member
11,333 3,037
Hi CV

Well - what do you reckon - 75 - 80% or even 90% of all spreadbetters will lose anyway - so they will not have to worry about tax on their annual profits.

The HMRC and the government and the spread betting companies all know this anyway.

Then if you get say 10 -15 % making say £5 - 25K per annum from spreadbetting - its not worth the hassle - but if its just say 2 or 3% making over say £50K or £100k+pa and not paying any tax - well they are the ones who will be chased and cornered

In the UK in terms of actual people - would this add up to even 500 people ??

I don't know to answer that one ?


Regards


F

Well I have no idea how many people would be affected, if any ! and clearly, neither do you. So given that we can find no examples and no official figures either from HMRC or the spread betting industry, then the default position has to be, that spread betting profits are not treated as taxable income.
 

mike.

Senior member
2,101 709
Hi CV

- but if its just say 2 or 3% making over say £50K or £100k+pa and not paying any tax - well they are the ones who will be chased and cornered


F

Just sticking the oar in here F, because its sunday and im bored.

I think if you were one of the fore-mentioned traders above and contact hmrc to tell them what you have made and offer to pay the relevant tax then im sure they will find a clause to gladly accept it.

But as for chasing you, they would have to prove that spread-betting does not come under uk gambling laws. i.e. tax free.. surely they would have done it by now through a test case.
 

timsk

Legendary member
7,611 2,383
Hi FoMo,
. . . I think you are not following what I have already said and trying to get a "yes or no" answer - when it fact its NOT black or white.
If it's not black 'n white, how come the spread betting companies are allowed to present it as such and go unchallenged - every last one of them - year after year, day after day? If, as you claim, they cover themselves in their 'small print', kindly produce the evidence to support your claim with a link. Can you do that? My bet is that you can't - can you!

. I repeat - spreadbetting is tax free for maybe 90 -95% of all traders.
Please tell me which side of this divide (I - not you) fall in? Can you do that? My bet is that you can't - can you!

However - it is not tax free for professional type gamblers who are full time and are not paying any tax from other revenues they earn outside trading.
So, please tell me, how much do I need to earn "from other revenues outside trading" to avoid paying tax? Please provide a link to a HMRC policy document that gives exact figures. Can you do that? My bet is that you can't - can you!

I will also repeat you have no need to worry if you have a clean tax history - are not a full time spread better and pay tax to the HMRC from other sources of revenue.
What's a 'clean' tax history? If you mean that the only people who need to worry about paying tax on spread betting profits are those who have evaded paying tax in the past and, in so doing, set off alarm bells with the officials at HMRC - then I have no sympathy with them. That's got naff all to do with the basic points being discussed here.

I hope that clarifies it more
Unfortunately FoMo, no it doesn't. As usual with your posts, they appear to me to be about muddying the waters rather than clarifying them. About misleading members rather than informing them. About your own agenda playing games at the expense of the wider membership, rather than talking facts, backed up by hard evidence which will support, educate and help members move forward in their trading.

If I'm, wring - kindly address the points made in this and previous posts by providing hard evidence in the form of links to HRMC, spread betting firms and copies of your own correspondence etc. Thus far, you've provided zilch - as in nada, nothing, other than bluster and hot air.
Tim.
 

Splitlink

Legendary member
10,850 1,234
Birmingham Tax office had me in 2008 / 2009

So I better sue my accountant and lawyer then ;-))

Which proves my point, if you can get investigated, what chance do we, poor, ignorant creatures, have?

Declare your filthy lucre, lads, and be done with it. :)
 
 
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