Anyone shorting the Dow Jones? pt 2

Hi Malaguti,

Obviously the answer is a complex and disputed one and for which will receive many answers both with totally different opinions. That is the nature of the market after all.

The thing is though, I hear what you are saying but isn't every trade we take a prediction. Its a guess, whether educated or not. Its just a prediction.

We cannot get every trade direction right but how we trade should always be right, even if the outcome is not favourable.

We pay our money, we take our chance. Therefore we predict. Even with your analogy of reaction, you should still have to have a plan of your reaction to the possibilities of which there are only ever two to which comes next. If you have planed your reaction then you have been proactive in your nature to react to the next possible set of events. If it does this then I will do that and so on.

Should you be long and the next candle is red then what is your plan...You can only react to an event after it has happened, but, you can plan for that scenario. Again, I am long and therefore my prediction is that it will go up, but, what if it doesn't. So, I use a stop and that is my exit plan should my prediction not come to fruition.

I have made my prediction (guess) and have reacted (placed my trade) to the markets with a proactive outlook (plan).

I know its obviously not that simple but under too much scrutiny can become blurred and complex when in fact it shouldn't be. Most people hate the word prediction and worse still hate the word gamble/guess. Unfortunately that is all we ever do.

Lee

I agree, I guess..it is blurred. I trade off predefined rules, its my plan/strategy whatever. I wait for my system to give me the next signal. That's it, Im not thikinng what might it be, it will only ever be with the trend, thats all I know. I cant predict anything. It must happen, according to my rule if it doesnt I cant do anything, or else I am not trading to what is a winning system for me. I wait, I wait and then there it is...so I react.
Now, Im still not predicting, I now wait for my exit signal. I dont know if it will go up, or go down I dont care. All I do is trade my plan.
All I know is, it sure is boring waiting.
But as always your thoughts are inspiring Lee
 
............. Most people hate the word prediction and worse still hate the word gamble/guess. Unfortunately that is all we ever do..........

Lee

Lee

I guess it's just semantics, but I'd say that we just assume rather than predict. If X then we assume Y will follow and act accordingly. That's a meaningful difference for me, but I accept can be seen as just semantics by others.
 
Lee

I guess it's just semantics, but I'd say that we just assume rather than predict. If X then we assume Y will follow and act accordingly. That's a meaningful difference for me, but I accept can be seen as just semantics by others.

Hello Jon,

lol, everyone always gets in a tis when they are told they are making predictions. I've never quite understood why.

However, just to clarify and without blurring any sidelines of what we do, firstly lets look at what a trader does:

They (or system) make an educated (or not) decision about market direction (up or down) then place a bet (or not).

This is their prediction.
This is A prediction.

I've attached some links as to what a prediction is below so we don't all get flustered, angered or confused.

Prediction market - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...e.0.57j60l2j0l3.5277&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=f...94,d.ZGU&fp=39959c83b2d132b7&biw=1366&bih=667

forecast past participle, past tense of fore·cast
Verb
Predict or estimate (a future event or trend).
Synonyms
predict - prognosticate - foresee - foretell - anticipate

pre·dict
/priˈdikt/
Verb
Say or estimate that (a specified thing) will happen in the future or will be a consequence of something.
Synonyms
foretell - prophesy - prognosticate - forecast - presage

Like it or not. We forecast. We predict. Trade outcomes, financial balance at end of trade, market direction etc.

Lee
 
They (or system) make an educated (or not) decision about market direction (up or down) then place a bet (or not).

This is their prediction.
This is A prediction.
Like it or not. We forecast. We predict. Trade outcomes, financial balance at end of trade, market direction etc.

Lee

This is where i disagree, and agree with Jon
Were my system to be based on a new high for example. I didn't/don't predict a new high would come, the market made the new high. I am reacting, my system is reacting to the market making a new high.
This is based on PAST results, not expected future results, which is what my trade outcome is based upon.
Semantics, though I'm sure

definition of reaction:
An action performed or a feeling experienced in response to a situation or event

market makes new high...little trader Malaguti places trade. satisfies my definition of reaction for sure
 
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This is where i disagree, and agree with Jon
Were my system to be based on a new high for example. I didn't/don't predict a new high would come, the market made the new high. I am reacting, my system is reacting to the market making a new high.
This is based on PAST results, not expected future results,you must have an expected future result as there can only ever be one of two outcomes which is what my trade outcome is based upon.
Semantics, though I'm sure

definition of reaction:
An action performed or a feeling experienced in response to a situation or event

market makes new high...little trader Malaguti places trade. satisfies my definition of reaction for sure

No worries, I wont fight anyone over it. I was just re-iterating what the definition means and how it relates to what we do. If you have a different view of this then that is your prerogative, you're not alone as most share this same view that they (or system) does not make predictions/forecast's. Obviously and ultimately the trader or system make a prediction or otherwise it would be gambling but I'll leave that with you to decide.

As the dragons say, "I'm out"

Have good weekend.

Lee
 
This is where i disagree, and agree with Jon
Were my system to be based on a new high for example. I didn't/don't predict a new high would come, the market made the new high. I am reacting, my system is reacting to the market making a new high.
This is based on PAST results, not expected future results, which is what my trade outcome is based upon.
Semantics, though I'm sure

definition of reaction:
An action performed or a feeling experienced in response to a situation or event

market makes new high...little trader Malaguti places trade. satisfies my definition of reaction for sure

I agree with this, a reaction to what the market is doing is different to a prediction.
Its all about timeframes and how and what people trade.

A day trader won't care about what the market is doing in a weeks time a months time or even in some cases tomorrow, he will place his trades according to what he sees in the 1 min, 5 min, 10min or whatever timeframe he is trading, on the flip side there are long term or swing traders who wont be looking at anything under the daily, weekly or maybe monthly charts so wont care what the market has done in the last 1 minute 5 minutes or 10 mins.

A scalper wont care what the market is doing in an hour let alone a day.

Trading a system isn't a prediction, far from it, it means you have an entry a target an exit and a stop.
We can all make predictions about the market, trading isn't about predictions, its about systems. Taking trades according to predictions means your system is flawed.

At the moment the market is moving higher, higher highs, higher lows when that changes and we start breaking previous swing lows, and making lower highs, then we can start shorting.

The safest trades at the moment are the dips.
Trying to predict a top is a dangerous game, we know a top will come, we can make a prediction the market will top out, but to trade the next trade as a market top would be suicidal.

The market is moving up on low volume, but its still making higher highs and higher lows.
How long it can continue to push on is dictated by how many people pile on at these highs, when it sells off, it will more then likely sell off big, thats a prediction.
I don't know how big the sell off will be, we have no sell off, we have nothing to go by but we know that markets rising on low volume mean no institutional buyers, less and less takers at these prices, which in turn means sooner or later the market will drop back to a level where people feel there is value, so a pull back, retrace, collapse whatever its going to be will come.
I have made a prediction as to what I think will happen.

Will I base my next trade on that.
No, will I base it on what the chart tells me, yes.
Predictions are predictions, systems are systems every system isn't perfect just like all predictions aren't correct.
If they were we'd all be as rich as Warren Buffet.

:cheesy:
 

Hi carlsd,

The 'Massive Options bet' site is from 6th February 2013, since this date the short seller the Financial Select Sector (ETF) has since seen the price rise against them from when they got in at approximately 17.50 to a price now at 18.44. That's a hell of a rise and the options have to go below 16.00 to profit. They must be carrying a lot of pain to still be in. Although these are April puts so the trader still has time on their hands, I bet they hope they have margin to.

I would bet that the second article is the same trader/s/group etc. This one has till the end of this month so running a little close to get the vix over 20 and the markets to drop like a stone. Still, if it succeeds this is a billionaire in the making or at least many several millionaires.

Good posts nonetheless.

Lee
 
Hi carlsd,

The 'Massive Options bet' site is from 6th February 2013, since this date the short seller the Financial Select Sector (ETF) has since seen the price rise against them from when they got in at approximately 17.50 to a price now at 18.44. That's a hell of a rise and the options have to go below 16.00 to profit. They must be carrying a lot of pain to still be in. Although these are April puts so the trader still has time on their hands, I bet they hope they have margin to.

I would bet that the second article is the same trader/s/group etc. This one has till the end of this month so running a little close to get the vix over 20 and the markets to drop like a stone. Still, if it succeeds this is a billionaire in the making or at least many several millionaires.

Good posts nonetheless.

Lee

Hi Lee

Someone is obviously looking for a huge move by the end of this month.
If those trades deliver then whoever it is will be throwing the party of a lifetime, especially when you consider the last time the VIX was above 20 was in December last year, and to move it from its current lows would take a sizeable drop in the markets, the other trade is of real interest though, the ETF trade against the banks thats one to really watch, that ETF is trading at 18.45 and for it to drop back to under $17, well would be another HUGE move which would have to retrace an entire months worth of gains.



(y)
 
Hi Lee

Someone is obviously looking for a huge move by the end of this month.
If those trades deliver then whoever it is will be throwing the party of a lifetime, especially when you consider the last time the VIX was above 20 was in December last year, and to move it from its current lows would take a sizeable drop in the markets, the other trade is of real interest though, the ETF trade against the banks thats one to really watch, that ETF is trading at 18.45 and for it to drop back to under $17, well would be another HUGE move which would have to retrace an entire months worth of gains.



(y)

Anyone with a long term outlook is obviously aware that there WILL be a drop in the markets, after all they only ever go up and down and of late they have very much only been going one way.

We are also still due a 5% correction. My prediction is we will see more than this and the 'others' will be buying it all the way down. That's when winners turn to losers. Even the word on the street from the guy down the pub is "buy shares, I've made a fortune recently", although they fail to mention it is their pension or the actual shares they've bought and is only on paper and have not yet cashed out.

It's going to get very hot out there so I'm going stock up on sun cream and get my shorts on.

Lee
 
Anyone with a long term outlook is obviously aware that there WILL be a drop in the markets, after all they only ever go up and down and of late they have very much only been going one way.

We are also still due a 5% correction. My prediction is we will see more than this and the 'others' will be buying it all the way down. That's when winners turn to losers. Even the word on the street from the guy down the pub is "buy shares, I've made a fortune recently", although they fail to mention it is their pension or the actual shares they've bought and is only on paper and have not yet cashed out.

It's going to get very hot out there so I'm going stock up on sun cream and get my shorts on.

Lee

Its starting to look a bit toppy now and moving higher and higher on lower and lower volume isn't sustainable.
Albeit i'm still buying dips until that lower high is in.
800 points in 10 days is a hell of a run, so its due some sort of a retrace, maybe before next weeks FOMC announcement.
 
GREENSPAN : recent economic strength is coming from stocks and ...

rising home prices. FED is supporting this kind of investment.
"dont fight the FED". The trend has been certainly our friend.
this is what is going on ! There is nothing out there declaring
different things.
 
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Re: GREENSPAN : recent economic strength is coming from stocks and ...

rising home prices. FED is supporting this kind of investment.
"dont fight the FED". The trend has been certainly our friend.
this is what is going on ! There is nothing out there declaring
different things.


Absolutely. Think what you like, but trade only one thing - what you see.
 
Up or down, nobody knows

Absolutely. Think what you like, but trade only one thing - what you see.

Hi Tomorton and pssonice,

Great advice but I'm on the contrarian view point, someone has to be I guess. The only thing is we can only ever trade what we've seen, this is the left hand side. None of us know what the right hand of the page is going to print at any given moment, we can only speculate (or in a more finer way, predict) what is coming next. My prediction is that the market will top at some point (when, not sure)and although I strongly agree that the trend is your friend, this is only applicable until the bend at the end. This is where every man and his dog keeps buying all the way down believing it to be another 'dip' or 'buying opportunity'.

Anyway, right or wrong I'll stick to my conviction for the time being and see how it plays out. If I'm wrong then I lose some money, if I'm right then I win some.

Lee
 
Lee - I guess you're running a sustainable trading strategy, you've been around here a long time. But I feel sure that a true contrarian position is based on visible supportive evidence, it isn't simply adoption of the opposite position to the majority on a feeling that the majority has become too big.

We all enjoy the game of calling reversals, but it's just a mental entertainment, not the basis for a sustainable trading 'business'. This thread kicked off nearly 2 months ago so we've all had a lot of fun, except those who actually went short.
 
We all know its going to come off after the FED. They will hint at reining in Qe or "tapering" as they call it and the market will hit the skids, i dont think it will be for very long but for a few days it will be a no bid market, remember volume has been tiny on the way up, and it will be large on the way down, look out below
 
Re: Up or down, nobody knows

Hi Tomorton and pssonice,

Great advice but I'm on the contrarian view point, someone has to be I guess. The only thing is we can only ever trade what we've seen, this is the left hand side. None of us know what the right hand of the page is going to print at any given moment, we can only speculate (or in a more finer way, predict) what is coming next. My prediction is that the market will top at some point (when, not sure)and although I strongly agree that the trend is your friend, this is only applicable until the bend at the end. This is where every man and his dog keeps buying all the way down believing it to be another 'dip' or 'buying opportunity'.

Anyway, right or wrong I'll stick to my conviction for the time being and see how it plays out. If I'm wrong then I lose some money, if I'm right then I win some.

Lee

Lee im with you on this one, remember when every was telling us we were wrong to be short the DAX as its only going one way, until it dumped 300 points in less than 2 sessions, there is alot of trade what you see, but also trade your margin and your P+L, i find it hard to see people telling you that you have the wrong position for all they know, people could have 1 mio down on margin, and if these people believe we wont see 1500 on the S&P again this year, they are going to get burnt !
 
Eventually the indices might collapse, but there is no evidence yet that is strong enough for opening a short. Just the same as there wasn't when this thread was started, and the Dow was 800 points lower. Trades should be based on analysis, not pessimism, which is just another emotion.
 
The problem is where do you place your protective stop until such time as the market appears to have topped. You can then either position for a lower high or a false break top. In such a case, you then have a clearly defined protective stop. Shorting prematurely is based on hope not facts.

Where is the evidence that a top is in besides the notion that a top is due? It is a case of trading what you see versus what you know.
 
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