Anyone can learn?

[damianoakley]

1) What would your opinion on this be if the title of the thread was, "Can anyone teach trading?"

2) Who would you want as a teacher? (In terms of wad making) Someone who IS making a wad or someone barely scraping by?

Hi New_Trader,

Interesting questions, especially for someone like me who does get involved in the coaching side of things as well as trading itself.

1) From my experience, I would say that trading CAN be taught, but what can't be controlled is maintaining the student's desire to continue with trading once the theory has been taught. Many people quit trading when they realise that it has to be treated as a serious business venture, which involves a great deal of planning and commitment.

2) As regards who you would prefer to employ as your teacher/mentor, people will (and should) check out the credentials of anyone that they are considering working with - I think that this applies to all walks of life, whether it be traders, driving instructors or personal trainers.

You would want to be assured of a teacher's success before handing over any money, and one of the only ways to assess that level of success is to see if they portray a successful image, which comes down again to the house they live in, the car they drive, the clothes they wear, etc.

I suppose in this case, material things can actually hold some importance.


Thanks

Damian

 

[PKFFW]

Damian,

"fulfilled with the life they have."

Unfortunately, there is an implicit assumption in some quarters on T2W (and elsewhere, especially Elite Trader) that if one isn't trading and also making a wad, this is tantamount to failure.

Grant.

You forgot to add........

If someone isn't doing it the same way the person judging them is doing it that is also tantamount to failure.

It's no good making a wad of money from mechanical system trading, that isn't really trading and you aren't really successful if you do it that way.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[firewalker99]

So why aren't people learning and doing it?

Hyperthetical bit....

Minimum wage couple, bought a house 10 years ago, some equity in it. Both in jobs that suck.

You can see where i'm going with this, right?

Let me ask you a couple of questions:

How does the outside world look at 'traders'? Are they doing 'a real job' or are they just 'gamblers'?

What is the reaction of society when someone says "oh, instead of going to college, I'll go tour the world, see some cities across the globe, enjoy some new experiences, and after 2 years I'll come back and find myself a job and a wife and some kids..."?

How do family & friends look upon you when you would say "hey, I'm quitting my job, I'm going to try something new, I don't know if it's going to work, and I might lose a lot of money, but it's worth the try".

(here comes that word environment again )

 

[firewalker99]

Some people are simply risk averse and/or not entrepreneurial or interested in really striving to increase their financial status. I know several people who could be very wealthy by now. People that had the right skills at the right time to make it big but that lacked the drive.

That's a good point.

One could also ask - for example - why do so many people prefer to work in a pay job instead of being self-employed or starting their own business?

Is it because you need the right genes for starting your own business? Or is it because you need some starting capital and have to put in a lot of time and effort before there's a chance of succeeding? (dzjee this sounds awfully much like trading). :idea:

 

[firewalker99]

or do genes play a role after all?

Women appear to be better investors than men... (less ego):

Women's portfolios often to do better than men's - Business First of Louisville:

 

[damianoakley]

That's a good point.

One could also ask - for example - why do so many people prefer to work in a pay job instead of being self-employed or starting their own business?

Is it because you need the right genes for starting your own business? Or is it because you need some starting capital and have to put in a lot of time and effort before there's a chance of succeeding? (dzjee this sounds awfully much like trading). :idea:

Hi Firewalker,

I think most people see a full-time job as the safest and most secure way of generating an income. They see things like trading or starting a business as risky and insecure.

Personally, I see it from another angle. I think that if your only income is dependent upon an employer providing you with a monthly salary, then that is very risky.

I prefer to have more control over where and how my income is generated.

Each to their own of course....


Thanks

Damian

 

[grantx]

FW, Damian,

If one has a wife, children, mortgage, etc and an insignificant amount of capital (less than 1 year's total living costs, excluding trading capital), the question arises whether speculative trading is a responsible course, ie what are costs (excluding monetary) to others? In the final analysis perhaps the question is, can you afford to fail?

Grant.

 

[black bear]

Good point

FW, Damian,

If one has a wife, children, mortgage, etc and an insignificant amount of capital (less than 1 year's total living costs, excluding trading capital), the question arises whether speculative trading is a responsible course, ie what are costs (excluding monetary) to others? In the final analysis perhaps the question is, can you afford to fail?

Grant.

Hi Grant

That is imho the fall down for many imo, its not if they can trade in the money its

Can I make enough to feed myself and family, can I trade at size when it does matter

Am I being selfish ? answer is Yes

Am I being realistic answer is unknown, you have crunched past figs but they are past figs

At the end of the day the cost of start up and the risk of ruin is just to great for many

The cost of doing nothing while you develope and learn or not as the case may be adds up and is where the real loss in trading is made, not at the market. That pressure is not for many.

I used to have a small 3 employee business ~ Closed down, life choice did not go bust just moved on to other things in life, was young..............er

The daily weekly pressure to find work in slack times can be draining, in the early days it can be 24/7 which for many is totally out and just not possible even if they wanted to do it

 

[firewalker99]

FW, Damian,

If one has a wife, children, mortgage, etc and an insignificant amount of capital (less than 1 year's total living costs, excluding trading capital), the question arises whether speculative trading is a responsible course, ie what are costs (excluding monetary) to others? In the final analysis perhaps the question is, can you afford to fail?

Grant.

It's probably not. So the question arises, what factors come into play if you want to be a speculator? Starting out young, with little responsibilities seems the more likely path to take. Again, how many people of middle age start up a new business? Most entrepeneurs start at a relatively young age, they have little to lose...

 

[grantx]

Andy,

I sometimes wonder when someone asks questions of the type, "I have £5000 to invest and I believe I can make a fortune trading fx full-time." I reckon 30-50% are in the position we're highlighting (too many responsibilities), and this is probably one of the main factors why people fail - not through lack of talent or committment but because exterior/non-related pressures are too great.

Grant.

 

[grantx]

FW,

Trading as a business has got be the most unforgiving. Most other businesses know their competitors and whether there is sufficient demand for their products. Not quite so black and white for trading.

Grant.

 

[gooseman]

i left trading as a local after a good run and seeing a mate carried out. the financial risks were such that any negative effects would be realised by not just me but those around me. don't regret being a local or the decision to quit.

 

[MrGecko]

in no particular order, a few sweeping statements:

*I dont think it's fair to say the "working classes" lack entreprenurial skills or drive - look up Plumber in the yellow pages

*I think one of the reasons that the "working classes" are under-represented in the trading community is because the existing trading community is mostly middle class, and they feel "they don't belong there". The reverse is true too; you won't find many middle class plumbers. Like it or loathe it, class divides exist and they are here to stay.

*the aspirations of any individual are largely influenced by the aspirations of the people in their environment. Some do "dare to dream", but not many. the "Billy Elliot" factor. I am a trader, my father was a trader, his father did something else in the City, and so on. This is no coincidence.

*The image of trading and the realities of trading are quite different. Most see trading, before they have investigated it properly as "BUY! BUY! BUY!" , "SELL! SELL! SELL!", "This morning I have earned a ferrari" that it is portrayed as in the popular press (This is probably (IMO) why most new traders start on 2-min charts making far too many trades). The reality of trading is that it is a cool, calm and collected string of decision making scenarios, and wholly unlike peoples perception of it.

*without getting into the "trading is gambling" debate, I don't think it is fair to say that the working classes have demonstrated that they wouldn't enjoy trading, nor that they arent prepared to spend the effort to develop the necessary skills of interpreting information to arrive at a judgement. Have you ever tried to make sense of the racing post??

 

[firewalker99]

FW,

Trading as a business has got be the most unforgiving. Most other businesses know their competitors and whether there is sufficient demand for their products. Not quite so black and white for trading.

Grant.

You really believe that other businesses know their competitors and have a good idea of how big the demand is going to be when they start out? Yes, some (big) firms make a good study of the market first, but how many self-employed people have the time or money to do that, build a medium-term strategy plan, invest in market research etc etc.?

I know a lot of people in the IT business who started out on their own in the end of the nineties, but they've soon come to realize the market has changed and they weren't aware of the competitors. For example, your average local computer hardware dealer wasn't aware in 1995 that he would have serious competition from online shops selling products at a discount price ten years later.

I think it's definitely not that black & white for businesses, on the contrary...

 

[firewalker99]

Another question for the originator of this thread

Can anyone become a F1 driver?
(environment, environment,...)

Yet I'm sure we can are all pretty much convinced that learning to drive is something almost anyone can learn.

 

[black bear]

Thats the one.........a lot of Hoops to jump through for sure

Andy,

I sometimes wonder when someone asks questions of the type, "I have £5000 to invest and I believe I can make a fortune trading fx full-time." I reckon 30-50% are in the position we're highlighting (too many responsibilities), and this is probably one of the main factors why people fail - not through lack of talent or committment but because exterior/non-related pressures are too great.

Grant.

Hi Grant

In my very very humble opinion

Thats it exactly in a nutshell, anyone who can trade will say = no problem lets get started. Same as anybody who can do anything well to a pro level standard.

Anyone who is starting out just does not no do they, its all new and pressure is right in their face from the gun and I would include myself in this. All anyone can do is draw on all their life resources and just bloody hope its good enough at the end of the day. That pressure may or may not have been anticipated and it effects many to the point where total failure is even more likely.

Exterior pressure and dealing with it ~ thats me below

I trade like I play snooker = one shot at a time and F..ck what just happened its only relevent if you executed your plan wrong or you let it affect you, then you have something to address imho. Keep going till the last balls potted all the way 100% on every shot. When its done shake hands and ..............Next

I do not now if I can make it to proper trader (where I want to be) but what I do now is if you do not try you really have failed and thats just plain unexceptable to me.

Just me, maybe not you and thats cool to, and very ok imho


I now that the pressure and problems Grant as posted = A Pro will and should be able to deal with them or he or she should not consider themselves a Pro

 

[black bear]

Fast laps and no fall off possible

Another question for the originator of this thread

Can anyone become a F1 driver?
(environment, environment,...)

Yet I'm sure we can are all pretty much convinced that learning to drive is something almost anyone can learn.

Hi FW


Most could be taught to put some fast consistant laps in imho Fw

 

[damianoakley]

FW, Damian,

If one has a wife, children, mortgage, etc and an insignificant amount of capital (less than 1 year's total living costs, excluding trading capital), the question arises whether speculative trading is a responsible course, ie what are costs (excluding monetary) to others? In the final analysis perhaps the question is, can you afford to fail?

Grant.

Hi Grant,

.....and I think that's the reason why most people feel unable to take the plunge and begin a business of any description, let alone trading.

Society tends to put us all onto the same conveyor-belt of life from the day we are born: we get an education, we get a job, we purchase liabilities like a house and a car, we start a family..........and then we dream of breaking free from the job that helped make all the above possible.

I'm not saying that we should abandon our responsibilities, but it seems to be human nature to trap ourselves into a rat-race that we spend half our lives trying to escape....


Thanks

Damian

 

[barjon]

I know Firewalker is going to disagree with this, but here goes :cheesy:

Like many other vocations I believe that a top trader has a mix of natural abilities that are ideally suited to successful trading. For those without the right natural mix, good training and experience can enhance the abilities that are beneficial to success (and subdue those that are detrimental) to the level of proficiency but not to greatness.

I've been at this since the sixties - when you drew your own charts and "short term" was measured in days and weeks rather than minutes and hours - and it wasn't until I accepted that, in trading terms, I was a county athlete at best that I made progress. Thus, it's strictly a secondary income "hobby" with everything geared to that end and never money on the line that'd make or break me.

I admire those of you who have the courage to pursue trading as your livelihood and have enormous respect for those of you who manage it. I have neither the courage nor the ability to be so successful, but I'm happy where I am.

good trading

jon

 

[grantx]

Andy,

My only problem is a lack of discipline (but I'm working on it).

Grant.