VantagePoint software

[SkiTrader]

Of course you are buying the staff - it is they who support it.

If they were more knowledgeable there would be fewer fed up customers.

Market Technologies could stop all the hassle if they could better help their customers use the damn thing properly. I speak as a Vantage Point customer!!

Fair enough. I guess my expectations of the salespeople were different. I assumed they were purely hawking a product. If their competency was trading, I would imagine they would be traders and not salespeople. I do agree that it would be very beneficial if the VantagePoint software came with a book of proven strategies (generated by real traders) associated with using the software.

 

[wmhays]

active user forum

i am looking for an active user forum, mainly etf's.

please e-mail [email protected]

thanks

wmhays

 

[SkiTrader]

i am looking for an active user forum, mainly etf's.

please e-mail [email protected]

thanks

wmhays

wmhays, what are you looking for exactly? I also use VP for ETFs.

 

[tuttle1]

trying to return vantage point

Hi Guys (& Gals)

Having read a lot of negative comments on various boards relating to 'Market Technologies' (the producers of VantagePoint) I have chosen to speak in defence of the company (if not in defence of the product):

I bought VantagePoint six months ago and at the time, I resolved to give it a fair trial before commenting on its performance. During that time, I have seen some good signals and some bad, but overall I lost money trading it. HOWEVER, the fact that I lost money could be that it simply did not match my trading approach and personality.

I wanted to return the software and received some quality advice from two T2W members - SCHOE and MAX44 - who had both had previous dealings with the company. I contacted Market Technologies and explained the situation to them; I found them to be VERY helpful and accommodating, especially considering I had used the software for six months. Without hesitation, they authorised a full refund (even including the original shipping charge). So I can honestly say that, although I didn't get on with the software, the company behind it were very professional.

Many thanks to SCHOE and MAX44 for your advice!
God bless you and yours. :cheesy:

I am in the same position and would like to try and return the software. How were you able to do it. Any advice would be much appreciated.

thanks

 

[kevtherev]

Hello,

I'm new to this thread but have done my homework by swotting up on the previous posts/threads. I have recently spoken to a VP rep and received the canned set of charts demonstrating (not surprisingly) how uncannily accurate the MA crossover signals are. As per the experience of other posters, my request for charts of my chosen markets was refused. In fact, I was made to feel that, by even contemplating asking for such a thing, I was calling into question the integrity of the sales guy himself. I soon got over it though.

For me, the main unanswered question regarding VP is does this package actually perform intermarket analysis (using neural networking according to the blurb) or do the charts simply display a straightforward MA crossover signal which can be duplicated quite easily elsewhere?

In one of the posts I read, a chap mentioned that he had accidently run his VP market analysis with incomplete data. Upon correcting the data and rerunning the VP analysis, the output was exactly the same as before. It really is a shame that the lack of an in-depth explanation of how the program internals actually work (which would not be too much to ask considering the price of the product) opens the vendor up to this kind of (possibly justified) scepticism.

I have noticed that several people have pointed out that one can get a similar chart to that generated by VP by using a 3-period EMA over a 10-period MA in any of the mainstream charting packages. In defence of VP, by displacing a 10-period MA back four periods (in line with VP's claimed four-day prediction timeframe), it can be seen that the plot matches an undisplaced 3-period EMA very closely indeed. So perhaps we are comparing apples to oranges after all. It is also a shame that VP does not provide the facility (as far as I know) to overlay the predicted 10-period MA on the actual 10-period MA so that potential users could at least get a better idea of the validity, albeit only visually, of the signals generated. I won't even address the unfortunate lack of a proper backtesting facility as this particular gripe has been aired several times before.

I am not sure how much this helps or doesn't help anybody considering buying the VP software. Perhaps the developer has a crystal clear idea in his head of how it all hangs together, how relevant the analysis is for traders and how it is possible to make serious money by following the signals generated. Unfortunately, I am not a mind-reader and need things explained to me in words of one syllable in such a way that I can understand exactly what is happening before handing over the dough.

Perhaps the vendor needs to reallocate the marketing budget from pushy sales people to knowledgeable technical support staff who would be able to satisfactorily answer the kinds of questions raised in these forums. Who knows; perhaps VP is the best thing since sliced bread. The problem is that we'll never get to know for sure.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[Directional]

Mathemagician made the following great post on TSW forum:

From the VantagePoint website (http://www.markettechnologies.com/disclaimer.asp)...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE NEURAL INDEX PREDICTS WHETHER THE AVERAGE OF TOMORROW'S CLOSE AND THE CLOSE OF THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW (BOTH UNKNOWNS AT THIS TIME) WILL BE HIGHER OR LOWER THAN THE AVERAGE OF YESTERDAY'S CLOSE AND THE CLOSE OF THE DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It turns out that just checking to see if today's close is above the average price of the last two days makes this same prediction but with slightly higher accuracy than they claim.

you can perform the same prediction statistically using the following TradeStation easylanguage code:

var: Threshold(0), Guess(0), Success(0), Failure(0);

Threshold=(c[1]+c[2])*0.5;
if c>Threshold then Guess=1;
if c<Threshold then Guess=-1;

if Guess=1 then SetPlotColor(1,Blue);
if Guess=-1 then SetPlotColor(1,Red);
plot1(Threshold, "Threshold");

if (c+c[1])*0.5 > Threshold[2] and Guess[2]=1 then Success = Success + 1;
if (c+c[1])*0.5 < Threshold[2] and Guess[2]=1 then Failure = Failure + 1;

if (c+c[1])*0.5 < Threshold[2] and Guess[2]=-1 then Success = Success + 1;
if (c+c[1])*0.5 > Threshold[2] and Guess[2]=-1 then Failure = Failure + 1;

if LastBarOnChart and Success+Failure>0 then Print(GetSymbolName," ", NumToStr(Success,0)," ", NumToStr(Failure,0)," ", 100*Success/(Success+Failure));

While it is in fact accurate, this information is quite useless.

 

[else]

Advice returning Vantagepoint for a refund

Hi all,

I've had Vantagepoint for a month now and last week decided that it wasn't what i had expected. I've given it a fair trial but it just doesn't do what i had been led to believe it would.

can anybody give me any advice on how best to succeed, i have emailed thyem and had a fairly lengthy conversation with one of the managers but he wasn't offering a refund at this stage.

I don't want to get nasty but i will if i have to.

Thanks in advance.

Andy

 

[SkiTrader]

Take a look at traderchat.com (VantagePoint blog) for some VantagePoint strategies. I have posted a couple of strategies out there that work. For an immediate idea, try trading based on the spread between the actual and predicted trends (for 6.4 that would be PTM diff). When the spread is large trade against the current trend (and exit when the spread is small)

 

[patong]

Quite right Dave, I couldn't agree more which is why I felt that my experience should be made public. My opinion as to the trading system is much the same as Schoe's: the only bit that I found to be anything like reliable was the moving average crossover system, and I've produced an almost identical MA in Metastock just using a simple and an exponential moving average.

Having said that, I have recently read a thread started by Oldalbanian in which he posts the trades he has taken based on VPs indicators, which seem to be consistently profitable so perhaps it is down to correct interpretation of the data...?

Dave,

I've produced an almost identical MA in Metastock just using a simple and an exponential moving average.

Can you show a chart of this please?

I have also tried to produce the same using metastock and a number of other systems and my conclusion is this. The VP crossover always come in one day ealier than anything else.

Hows Bunbury treating you? I lived in Margaret River for 12years.

 

[2George]

Filtering Group

It seems to me like a few of you should get together on instant messenger and all give input into a trade for the good of you all.
I am definitely not a VP fan but as it picks up all the good trades without fail, then collectively you should try to filter out the bad ones.
Good Luck.

Dave,

I've produced an almost identical MA in Metastock just using a simple and an exponential moving average.

Can you show a chart of this please?

I have also tried to produce the same using metastock and a number of other systems and my conclusion is this. The VP crossover always come in one day ealier than anything else.

Hows Bunbury treating you? I lived in Margaret River for 12years.

 

[patong]

It seems to me like a few of you should get together on instant messenger and all give input into a trade for the good of you all.
I am definitely not a VP fan but as it picks up all the good trades without fail, then collectively you should try to filter out the bad ones.
Good Luck.

Just another tool in the shed 2George.

If using a small account be very aware of the huge stops that Vp predicts.

I have made over 1000% of the cost of VP using its signals.After purchase. I backtested for nearly one year before even emtered a trade on a VP signal. I think the problem is it is marketed as almost the holy grail and people get sucked into that. You need a number of other confirmations as with any software.

I guess being from England a winge is ok now and then.

I am not promoting VP, just sharing my experience, good or bad.

Cheers.

 

[Dr_Jones]

Just another tool in the shed 2George.

If using a small account be very aware of the huge stops that Vp predicts.

I have made over 1000% of the cost of VP using its signals.After purchase. I backtested for nearly one year before even emtered a trade on a VP signal. I think the problem is it is marketed as almost the holy grail and people get sucked into that. You need a number of other confirmations as with any software.

I guess being from England a winge is ok now and then.

I am not promoting VP, just sharing my experience, good or bad.

Cheers.

I agree if it was $200 it might be worth it.
But it will give no better results than all combo's of all free indicators used since probably before the guys who sell VP, were born.
If someone cant make any profitable trades using something like volumeprofile/footprint/delta then they must be asleep.
You will still have losing and winning trades that you could get from an macd or an rsi.
Which are free.

 

[patong]

Hi Dr Jones,

VP is a very interesting package thats foresure. It took me a long time to have any confidence in it. The stop placement scared the living daylights out of me. So Wide.

I do believe there is a Holy Grail, However, it won't come from one piece of software. It will come from within yourself, understanding the all the tools you use and the markets you choose to trade. Thats as close to it anyone can hope to achieve.

Here is a long term trade set up I use for VP. You could use it elsewhere also.


Setup (click on Properties Tab):
Actual Market Data: Check “Bars” or “Candlesticks” based on your preference
Predicted Differences: Check “Medium Term” and “Long Term”
Predicted Forecasts: Check “Medium-Term Crossover”
Setup (click on General Tab)
Change the date range to 1 year.
Step 1
Scroll through charts to identify good opportunities. Search out markets where the Predicted Long-Term Difference and Predicted Medium-Term Difference are either at an extreme high or extreme low. These could be excellent trading opportunities. Now look at the past year to compare how extreme the differences are. The more extreme the differences, the better the trading opportunity.

Step 2
Once you have identified a good trading opportunity, look at the Medium-Term Crossover to see if the line is starting to angle up towards or down from the Medium-Term Trend line. It does not have to be crossing over, just angling in the same direction as the differences on the bottom of the chart (or in the Daily Report). Make sure the differences and the crossover angle agree.

Step 3
Click the Daily Report icon located at the top of the tool bar (it looks like a clipboard) to confirm that the Predicted Neural Index (PNI) confirms what was found in Steps 1 and 2. The Predicted Neural Index should be 1.0 when the Medium-Term Crossover line is angling up towards the Medium-Term Trend line. This confirms a move to the upside. The PNI should be 0.0 when the Medium-Term Trend line is angling down. This confirms a move to the downside. Now verify that the Predicted Differences (Short, Medium, and Long) are all moving in the same direction, either more positive or more negative, depending. One point to remember, the PNI is used to decide whether to enter a trade. Other indicators can help you determine the potential value of a trade.

Step 4
Compare the next day’s Predicted High and Predicted Low against the previous day’s predicted high's and low's to confirm that the price movement agrees with the direction of the other indicators in the previous steps. For example, if Medium-Term Crossover line is angling up, the next day’s predicted high and low should both be higher than yesterday’s predicted highs and lows. You would also like to look at the actual highs and lows and make sure that both of them are also getting stronger.

Additional Tips

1. Follow the Predicted Differences once you are in a trade. As long as they continue to move in your chosen direction, you can stay with the trade.

2. If the Medium-Term Crossover line begins angling down or up, this could indicate the trend is losing velocity. Think seriously about tightening stops or exiting the trade.

3. If the Predicted Differences are near the Zero line on the chart, this means the market is more sideways or there is no identifiable trend. It is time to look for a different opportunity.

4. If the Medium-Term Crossover line moves too far away (up or down) from the Medium-Term Trend line, it means the market is over extended and a correction will probably occur. Be aware.

 

[teejay4552]

Unfortunately, for me it was also a complete waste of time and lost be serious money. I asked for my money back which I received without the shipping costs.

From then on I resolved only to buy software that offered a free trial first. If the vendors of a software system think it's that good, they should have no qualms in offering it for free for a period first. Then give the customers the option of buying it if they choose.

Before VantagePoint I also spent £2000 on Goldline which was also a complete pile of crap.

I learned the hard way.

I now use (successfully) some software that gave me a free trial first, and was far, far cheaper than the offerings above.

I got an email the other day about Market Matrix by Steve Copan, promoted also by Tom Hougard. Unfortunately, they expect you to part with £1995 first. I therefore immediately deleted it. The reviews on this board were also unfavourable.


If they cannot or will not give you a free trial, then they can't have much faith in it, and by my definition, can't be much good either.

However, if other people make money from Vantage Point, then I wish them well.

Hi Bluetipex

I have been looking into VantagePoint and as a result of the many comments and my own research I have decided to give it a miss as it's not for me. You mentioned in your posting that you successfully use another system and I noticed also that someone asked you what it was. I cannot see any response to that so maybe you decided to keep the info private, which is perfectly understandable. If however I have missed the reply somewhere, I would be extremely interested in finding out more.

I look forward to hearing from you

regards

 

[pboyles]

Hi Bluetipex

I have been looking into VantagePoint and as a result of the many comments and my own research I have decided to give it a miss as it's not for me. You mentioned in your posting that you successfully use another system and I noticed also that someone asked you what it was. I cannot see any response to that so maybe you decided to keep the info private, which is perfectly understandable. If however I have missed the reply somewhere, I would be extremely interested in finding out more.

I look forward to hearing from you

regards

teejay,

You made a good decision there. I've just discovered that I can almost exactly replicate their 'neural index' outputs by using a couple of simple calculations in MS excel. I also read another post that outlined which freely available moving averages that replicated their blue and black crossovers.

 

[patong]

teejay,

You made a good decision there. I've just discovered that I can almost exactly replicate their 'neural index' outputs by using a couple of simple calculations in MS excel. I also read another post that outlined which freely available moving averages that replicated their blue and black crossovers.

I have been using owned VP for almost 18 months. I find its predictions are very good. I do not dispute anyone who can almost replicate the neural index, but really how close is it is, is the same, worse, or better. I would love to know this in order to better my system.

The last month has given me some great trades, however, thats not to say other people are not getting great trades using other systems also. VP is not something for beginners and one needs to understand the market fully they are trading first of all.

Is it worth the money? I don't know. One thing though since having VP i am up now over 1000% on purchase. about 12k purchase price......ouch.

Like trading any system you need to be patient. I find when i am hungry for a trade I look to deep into VP and screw up everytime. If i let the trade come to me VP offers rewards.

Heres some none confirmed VP signals. some will work some won't. most need more analysis before entry. I have not entered stops as i don't truely know my entries yet and not all are confirmations , just on watch list at present.

I hope you guys reading this can pick holes and give constructive advice. After all, its what T2W is all about.

REmember VP is a EOD trading system.
19/9/2008

AUD/JPY long entry 8970?

AUD/CAD long entry 8600

AUD/USD long entry 8015ish

EUD/JPY long entry 152.16

NZD/USD long entry was on the 17th @ 6609 now 6686 = 20 pip trailing stop

CHF/JPY long entry 96.11 ish

USD/CAD short entry was on the 18/9 @ 1.0615 now 1.0474 still time to get in i think.

Who really knows, just need to pick the best and go for it

Gold. the other day. My system picked it a long on the 12/09. made about 70k

I have all the catorgories in VP. If any one wants a vp opinion i can post one. I don't care if its wrong or right. I only see this as a learning curve to help me understand the system better, and to give you all a better understanding. Rip Off or Not.

 

[pboyles]

I have been using owned VP for almost 18 months. I find its predictions are very good. I do not dispute anyone who can almost replicate the neural index, but really how close is it is, is the same, worse, or better. I would love to know this in order to better my system.

The last month has given me some great trades, however, thats not to say other people are not getting great trades using other systems also. VP is not something for beginners and one needs to understand the market fully they are trading first of all.

Is it worth the money? I don't know. One thing though since having VP i am up now over 1000% on purchase. about 12k purchase price......ouch.

Like trading any system you need to be patient. I find when i am hungry for a trade I look to deep into VP and screw up everytime. If i let the trade come to me VP offers rewards.

Heres some none confirmed VP signals. some will work some won't. most need more analysis before entry. I have not entered stops as i don't truely know my entries yet and not all are confirmations , just on watch list at present.

I hope you guys reading this can pick holes and give constructive advice. After all, its what T2W is all about.

REmember VP is a EOD trading system.
19/9/2008

AUD/JPY long entry 8970?

AUD/CAD long entry 8600

AUD/USD long entry 8015ish

EUD/JPY long entry 152.16

NZD/USD long entry was on the 17th @ 6609 now 6686 = 20 pip trailing stop

CHF/JPY long entry 96.11 ish

USD/CAD short entry was on the 18/9 @ 1.0615 now 1.0474 still time to get in i think.

Who really knows, just need to pick the best and go for it

Gold. the other day. My system picked it a long on the 12/09. made about 70k

I have all the catorgories in VP. If any one wants a vp opinion i can post one. I don't care if its wrong or right. I only see this as a learning curve to help me understand the system better, and to give you all a better understanding. Rip Off or Not.

For one year of data the NI was replicated every trading day except 11 of them. Havnt checked to see which was more accurate on those 11 days but I read in another post here on trade2win that using your own calculations was actually more accurate. All I did was work out the average price of the last 2 days and then look at todays close, if it was higher then NI would be 1 if lower it would be 0.

I think the point is that the NI isnt calculated by looking at hundreds of other markets like they claim, its just a simple calculation based on price, perhaps not the exact calculation I used but its something close.

 

[patong]

you are possibily right. I would lke to see how VP puts it all together. Where the data comes from im the first place and is it VP that brings the intermarket analysis together. Perhaps if they were more open could then give them more crediabilily, then thers the other side , if they have some true and worthy why give it away.

Here's an idea. why don,t we pick a FX or Metal whatever and compare the neutral index day to day. never know what may turn out.

so all you did was use a 2 ATR + todays close?

 

[pboyles]

you are possibily right. I would lke to see how VP puts it all together. Where the data comes from im the first place and is it VP that brings the intermarket analysis together. Perhaps if they were more open could then give them more crediabilily, then thers the other side , if they have some true and worthy why give it away.

Here's an idea. why don,t we pick a FX or Metal whatever and compare the neutral index day to day. never know what may turn out.

so all you did was use a 2 ATR + todays close?

I'd be happy to help but I cancelled my data subscription in May so I only have data up until then.

I calculated the by NI taking the average of the last 2 days mid price (high+low/2) and comparing it to todays close. That gives you about 95% correlation to VPs actual NI. I used VPs prices in their history report to do this.

A couple of pages back you'll see a post from another member who did something similar with better results I believe.

 

[patong]

REmember VP is a EOD trading system.
19/9/2008 was the post
23/9/2008AUD/JPY long entry 8970? 8792

AUD/CAD long entry 8600 8643
AUD/USD long entry 8015ish 8326

EUD/JPY long entry 152.16 154.72

NZD/USD long entry was on the 17th @ 6609 now 6686 = 20 pip trailing stop stopped at .6890

CHF/JPY long entry 96.11 ish 97.27

USD/CAD short entry was on the 18/9 @ 1.0615 now 1.0474 still time to get in i think. this has been a ripper now 1.0380. I think trend is changing here.


This was all done with VP. The stops were big. personally I think to big. But you can see the predictions and the profits. The big problem is sometimes you can wait for weeks to get the right signals and that is where many go wrong , looking for something thats not there.

I am advertising VP nor work for them, just showing some trades rather than talking about it.