Thank you for your response. I did sent them an email and they did not even respond to it! Did youjust ask for successful people who used the software and they gave you names or did you ask for a refund and then they provided names? What methods are you using to profit from it? What markets do you trade?
VantagePoint software
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When I was looking to buy the software, I spent a fair amount of time with them on the phone and they passed on some names of people I could call who had used the software successfully. Since purchasing the software I have also spoken a number of times to their support people (813-973-3875 Option 1) as well as Lane Mendelsohn. Call their support people to get names of others to talk to.
Regarding trading strategies for the software here are a couple of ideas for you (both focus on the ETF module). 1) look to go long/short when both the PTSDiff and PTMDiff are moving up/down as long as they not to at extreme values. Once you get a signal at the end of the day enter at the next open and then exit/hold at the following open based upon the next day's end of day signal. The extreme values of PTMDiff and PTSDiff beyond which no trade should be made (under this strategy) are specific to each security (you need to backtest to find the correct values). This typically results in positions held overnight (Open to Open) and it works pretty well for DIA, MDY and IWM. 2) A second idea is to generate a moving average of PTMDiff. Go Long when the average is moving up and stay long if the average moves sideways after moving up, or go Short when the average is moving down and stay short if the average moves sideways after moving down. You are always in the market with this approach and it works pretty well for GLD.
There are lots of ways to use the software. These are just a couple of ideas. They don't touch on using PHighDiff and PLowDiff which also can be used successfully. Bottom line, you need to look at each security's behaviour and develop a hypothesis as to a trading strategy that might work. Then you need to download VantagePoint data and backtest that hypothesis using a spreadsheet program to see if it has validity. The various strategies tend to work for some securities and not others and usually over a finite period of time so you need to be updating them periodically (yearly etc.). What probably won't work is just looking at the graph outputs from VantagePoint and trading off something simple like a crossover of the predicted vs. actual 10 day moving average. It is also pretty essential to backtest the strategy yourself to psychologically get comfortable with the strategy so you follow it when your gut tells you not to on any particular day (your gut is probably wrong).
Hope this helps.
Regarding trading strategies for the software here are a couple of ideas for you (both focus on the ETF module). 1) look to go long/short when both the PTSDiff and PTMDiff are moving up/down as long as they not to at extreme values. Once you get a signal at the end of the day enter at the next open and then exit/hold at the following open based upon the next day's end of day signal. The extreme values of PTMDiff and PTSDiff beyond which no trade should be made (under this strategy) are specific to each security (you need to backtest to find the correct values). This typically results in positions held overnight (Open to Open) and it works pretty well for DIA, MDY and IWM. 2) A second idea is to generate a moving average of PTMDiff. Go Long when the average is moving up and stay long if the average moves sideways after moving up, or go Short when the average is moving down and stay short if the average moves sideways after moving down. You are always in the market with this approach and it works pretty well for GLD.
There are lots of ways to use the software. These are just a couple of ideas. They don't touch on using PHighDiff and PLowDiff which also can be used successfully. Bottom line, you need to look at each security's behaviour and develop a hypothesis as to a trading strategy that might work. Then you need to download VantagePoint data and backtest that hypothesis using a spreadsheet program to see if it has validity. The various strategies tend to work for some securities and not others and usually over a finite period of time so you need to be updating them periodically (yearly etc.). What probably won't work is just looking at the graph outputs from VantagePoint and trading off something simple like a crossover of the predicted vs. actual 10 day moving average. It is also pretty essential to backtest the strategy yourself to psychologically get comfortable with the strategy so you follow it when your gut tells you not to on any particular day (your gut is probably wrong).
Hope this helps.
thank you !
undefined
Thank you for taking the time to assist! I appreciate it and will look into your successful trading stategies. How long have you owned the software and how long did it take you to start profiting from trades using their numbers? Do you only have the one module? (ETFs) I purchased all of the modules so I have alot of homework to do in back testing! I have had it since I believe mid July and I think I have just spread myself too thin trying to learn all the markets and how they trade. Prior to owning it I was only trading ETFs and now I can trade all of the markets so I have learned alot but I want to be able to start profiting so I can pay the software expense back and move forward!!
Again, thank you kindly for your advice and for responding to my question. Its good to know someone out there is successfully using the software.
undefined
Thank you for taking the time to assist! I appreciate it and will look into your successful trading stategies. How long have you owned the software and how long did it take you to start profiting from trades using their numbers? Do you only have the one module? (ETFs) I purchased all of the modules so I have alot of homework to do in back testing! I have had it since I believe mid July and I think I have just spread myself too thin trying to learn all the markets and how they trade. Prior to owning it I was only trading ETFs and now I can trade all of the markets so I have learned alot but I want to be able to start profiting so I can pay the software expense back and move forward!!
Again, thank you kindly for your advice and for responding to my question. Its good to know someone out there is successfully using the software.
SkiTrader said:
Sophie22 said:
I have had the software for about a month and pretty much started making money with it after a week or so (time it took to do the initial backtesting). Having said that I have been trading with TradeStation for a while (and trading generally for a number of years) and so was pretty familiar with backtesting and rules based trading. The main reason I got the VantagePoint software was to supplement my fundamental and technical analysis with neural network (pattern) based analysis. I bought 4 modules but have really only focused on the ETF module at this point. I'll start looking at the others in due course.
I have found VantagePoint generates some interesting data that can be used to develop successful trading strategies. I still trade using other tools and approaches as well but have now set up a VantagePoint portfolio to trade based on that tool. As I get more confidence with the tool I'll put more capital into the trades that are based on VantagePoint data. So far it looks pretty good. It does what I expected - not a crystal ball but not bad.
My advice is for you to focus on one module (or even just a few markets) initially. Work on developing a strategy that backtests well. Of course the backtest is based on history and is no guarantee of future success but my experience is that if it doesn't backtest well it probably won't work in the future. Once you have found a strategy or two that backtests well, start trading with small amounts of capital around that strategy. If it consistently makes money (after a few weeks etc.) put a little more capital into that strategy and so on.
By the way, if you haven't read it, purchase a copy of Van Tharp's book "Trade You Way to Financial Freedom". I read it a few years ago and it provides some really solid information on developing trading strategies that work. Its one of the few trading books out there which is actually useful.
how did you get refund on VP??
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Can you tell me what you did to get Vantage Point to refund your money?? I have called and emailed stating my dissatisfaction with their software but I get no where with them. How long did you own it before returning it and do you remember who you talked to in order to get a refund? They just tell me that they have a 15 day return policy and I am beyond that , therefore I cannot get a refund.
Thanks!
[QUOTE=bluetipex]Unfortunately, for me it was also a complete waste of time and lost be serious money. I asked for my money back which I received without the shipping costs.
From then on I resolved only to buy software that offered a free trial first. If the vendors of a software system think it's that good, they should have no qualms in offering it for free for a period first. Then give the customers the option of buying it if they choose.
Before VantagePoint I also spent £2000 on Goldline which was also a complete pile of crap.
I learned the hard way.
I now use (successfully) some software that gave me a free trial first, and was far, far cheaper than the offerings above.
I got an email the other day about Market Matrix by Steve Copan, promoted also by Tom Hougard. Unfortunately, they expect you to part with £1995 first. I therefore immediately deleted it. The reviews on this board were also unfavourable.
If they cannot or will not give you a free trial, then they can't have much faith in it, and by my definition, can't be much good either.
However, if other people make money from Vantage Point, then I wish them well.
[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Navy
Can you tell me what you did to get Vantage Point to refund your money?? I have called and emailed stating my dissatisfaction with their software but I get no where with them. How long did you own it before returning it and do you remember who you talked to in order to get a refund? They just tell me that they have a 15 day return policy and I am beyond that , therefore I cannot get a refund.
Thanks!
[QUOTE=bluetipex]Unfortunately, for me it was also a complete waste of time and lost be serious money. I asked for my money back which I received without the shipping costs.
From then on I resolved only to buy software that offered a free trial first. If the vendors of a software system think it's that good, they should have no qualms in offering it for free for a period first. Then give the customers the option of buying it if they choose.
Before VantagePoint I also spent £2000 on Goldline which was also a complete pile of crap.
I learned the hard way.
I now use (successfully) some software that gave me a free trial first, and was far, far cheaper than the offerings above.
I got an email the other day about Market Matrix by Steve Copan, promoted also by Tom Hougard. Unfortunately, they expect you to part with £1995 first. I therefore immediately deleted it. The reviews on this board were also unfavourable.
If they cannot or will not give you a free trial, then they can't have much faith in it, and by my definition, can't be much good either.
However, if other people make money from Vantage Point, then I wish them well.
[/QUOTE]
Directional
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did you pay on Visa Sophie? if so you can ask your Visa to do a chargeback on the basis of goods significantly not as described.
tell Vp thats what you'll do though first, because they will be charged merchant fee's for handling a chargeback, i'm sure they'd rather be reasonable and give you your cash back instead of be forced to give it back AND pay extra fee's on top
tell Vp thats what you'll do though first, because they will be charged merchant fee's for handling a chargeback, i'm sure they'd rather be reasonable and give you your cash back instead of be forced to give it back AND pay extra fee's on top
Arbitrageur said:
Problem with this approach (Visa complaint etc.) is that the tool really does do what VP says it should do. I have tested their 80% forecast accuracy claims for a number of markets and found it to be pretty valid. I suspect some salesperson said that Sophie could just look at the charts from the tool to determine entry and exit signals each night for various markets. That might be true in some circumstances but generally it won't be that easy. You need to download the tool's data into your own models to develop trading strategies that work with VP. At least that is what I have done.
Directional
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i think the reason why so many people want a refund is because of the way Market Technologies market their product.
From a cursory glance at the front page of their website, you'd forgive the newbie trader looking for an accurate trading method for thinking that he'd magically be able to produce 80% accuracy in all his trades. The rather deceptive use of the word "accuracy" which most people would take to mean "winning trades" in fact refers to the neural index, which isnt anything to do with accuracy of trades. I'm sure they know this, and I'm sure its an intentional ploy.
And their graphical illustrations showing the projected MA cross would make many think that it provides entry signals... oh look! this MA crossed and there was a big run up... right next to pronouncements about forecasting trends and 80% accuracy.
Maybe Vp does have uses in positional trading as an accesory to an existing and already profitable method, but certainly not as a standalone tool, and it certainly isnt an 80% accurate entry system as their marketing seems intent on leading many unwitting newbies to believe.
Market Technologies clearly know what they are doing in generating sales revenue from this tactic, so they are totally at fault for not making more realistic representations of what their product can actually acheive. If they marketed it is you have suggested that you use it, as a supplement to your existing methods, then that would be much better for everyone, though I'm sure it would only generate a fraction of the sales.
From a cursory glance at the front page of their website, you'd forgive the newbie trader looking for an accurate trading method for thinking that he'd magically be able to produce 80% accuracy in all his trades. The rather deceptive use of the word "accuracy" which most people would take to mean "winning trades" in fact refers to the neural index, which isnt anything to do with accuracy of trades. I'm sure they know this, and I'm sure its an intentional ploy.
And their graphical illustrations showing the projected MA cross would make many think that it provides entry signals... oh look! this MA crossed and there was a big run up... right next to pronouncements about forecasting trends and 80% accuracy.
Maybe Vp does have uses in positional trading as an accesory to an existing and already profitable method, but certainly not as a standalone tool, and it certainly isnt an 80% accurate entry system as their marketing seems intent on leading many unwitting newbies to believe.
Market Technologies clearly know what they are doing in generating sales revenue from this tactic, so they are totally at fault for not making more realistic representations of what their product can actually acheive. If they marketed it is you have suggested that you use it, as a supplement to your existing methods, then that would be much better for everyone, though I'm sure it would only generate a fraction of the sales.
Arbitrageur said:
You are right that the accuracy relates to the Neural Index and right again that this does not automatically translate into winning trades. VPs forecast data is surprisingly accurate however and if a customer is willing to put in the effort to develop trading strategies using it, those strategies can be profitable. I would agree with you that expectations for the product are not being set as well as they could be. This is a problem in a number of ways as some customers get the impression that the product provides a trading silver bullet (non-existent unfortunately) and other customers for whom the product could be useful are put off by the negative reviews.
jezabelle001
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Like the Kirby vacuum cleaner company, Market Technologies are very clever with their marketing, the only difference is at least the Kirby could actually pick up bits from your carpet!!!
jezabelle001 said:
Jezabelle, I have found VantagePoint's claims to be pretty valid. Their neural index is quite accurate as they claim. However you still need to be able to develop good trading strategies that use the VP data. Its hard to make money just from reading the graphs straight off the tool. I have talked to a number of people like me who have made money with the product. Like me they download the data into a spreadsheet which contains a trading strategy (that they have developed) that provides long/short signals. I believe in order to use the tool effectively, you need to be pretty proficient in developing trading strategies and backtesting. VP provides good forecasting data but not really a trading strategy out of the box.
If Vantage Point would TELL people that they need to be proficient in trading strategies and backtesting and that they need to have a good understanding of the market BEFORE they purchase the software, it would be more honest. Frankly, they make it sound as thought their software is the Holy Grail when they present a sales pitch. They say "it will take ALL of the questions you may have about a trade and make it stressfree!" THAT is TOTALLY UNTRUE. Vantage Point only cares about SELLING their software and making a profit, they DO NOT care about you after that. The people who sell the software are NOT TRADERS and have no clue how the market behaves . They tell you "enter your trade at VPs low (or just above it on a long) and put your stop just below the predicted low and you are all set! If the market goes down and hits your price and reverses, you are in and if it goes lower and hits your stop, you just have a small , controlled loss!" THEN later they tell you that their predicted HI and LO numbers have NO percentage of accuracy at all!! They also tell you later that when there is to be breaking news to stay clear of the market for a day or so to let the software catch up because it cannot predict news events! The market is based on news events 80% of the time!!! In fact if there are NOT news events the market is commonly sideways!!! Of course they do not tell you any of the above during their sales pitch. They press you to give them your charge card number, do NOT tell you the number of days you have to change your mind and cancel the sale when in fact, it takes over the cancellation period of time just to learn the basics of the system which means that you would not know all that you need to know in order to determine that the product is useless until long after their cancellation time!!
This software is useless as far as I am concerned. I could read charts and get the cross over MAs on ANY chart!!! My advice to anyone considering purchase of the software is NOT TO BUY IT!! Its a sad waste of money!!! There is NO ONE out there using the software that will tell you it works just like VP tells people it works. YOU MUST put in alot of back testing and have other technical skills in order to put any of their predictions to use and frankly, if you are skilled in those areas, you do not even NEED the software! Learn analysis well and the charts will tell you all you need. DONT WASTE YOUR MONEY!!! VANTAGE POINT IS NOT WORTH PURCHASING!!!
This software is useless as far as I am concerned. I could read charts and get the cross over MAs on ANY chart!!! My advice to anyone considering purchase of the software is NOT TO BUY IT!! Its a sad waste of money!!! There is NO ONE out there using the software that will tell you it works just like VP tells people it works. YOU MUST put in alot of back testing and have other technical skills in order to put any of their predictions to use and frankly, if you are skilled in those areas, you do not even NEED the software! Learn analysis well and the charts will tell you all you need. DONT WASTE YOUR MONEY!!! VANTAGE POINT IS NOT WORTH PURCHASING!!!
bluetipex
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A few weeks ago I had a call from a woman trying to sell me VantagePoint. I think she got my number from one of the webinars I had recently attended.
Early in the conversation I said that I only trade the "YM". She said "What's that?". Unbelievably I said "Have you heard of the Dow?". She said "No Sir, I haven't".
About 3 nanoseconds later I hung up the phone, without saying another word. Whoever is running that company should be ashamed of themselves. Absolutely atrocious.
Early in the conversation I said that I only trade the "YM". She said "What's that?". Unbelievably I said "Have you heard of the Dow?". She said "No Sir, I haven't".
About 3 nanoseconds later I hung up the phone, without saying another word. Whoever is running that company should be ashamed of themselves. Absolutely atrocious.
Sophie22 said:
Sophie, sounds like you are pretty upset with the software - thats a shame. Again I would tell people that the software provides pretty accurate forecasts for various securities - something that is very difficult to achieve. This is useful data for a trader. I know of no other source that provides this data. This accuracy is easily auditable if the trader is interested in confirming it. There is nothing out there that will guarantee trading profits out of the box. If there was, the wealth of the world would gradually move to the operator of such a system. With respect, one thing is for sure - a lot of emotion is a guarantee of losses in the market. Elimating anger at the market or a software tool is a key step in generating profits in the market.
bluetipex said:
The thing is, I am interested in the VantagePoint software not the salespeople. The software does what is claimed in terms of forecasting accuracy. As for the salespeople, I don't really care if they are knowledgeable or not. I'm not buying them.
brimfieldmg
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Of course you are buying the staff - it is they who support it.
If they were more knowledgeable there would be fewer fed up customers.
Market Technologies could stop all the hassle if they could better help their customers use the damn thing properly. I speak as a Vantage Point customer!!
If they were more knowledgeable there would be fewer fed up customers.
Market Technologies could stop all the hassle if they could better help their customers use the damn thing properly. I speak as a Vantage Point customer!!
bluetipex
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SkiTrader said:
I bought VantagePoint some years ago when I had just started on my trading journey, searching for the "Holy Grail" as many beginners do. I sent it back fairly quickly and got my money back. I am now of the opinion that all I need to succeed is available for free on sites such as this, and within myself. From what you have said I conclude that it is not suitable for "beginners" at all, as you need to be fairly proficient at interpreting the data to make it useful. This was not explained to me when I purchased it.
I think most people form an impression of a company based on the efficiency, politeness, knowledge etc of the person on the end of the phone. This "impression" is then partly taken into account when you decide whether or not to deal with them. I do not believe it unreasonable to expect the salepersons of a business to be knowledgeable about the product or service being sold. The impression that this person gave me was the only ability she had was to take my credit card payment details. Apart from this her knowledge was minimal, and wouldn't be able to answer any basic questions I had about the product, such as "Do you provide data for the YM?". I certainly would not run a business in this way.
If you and others have managed to find a way to make it work for you then that is excellent. At the time I didn't have the ability to do this, and I probably still don't have the ability now. Therefore, if someone were to ask me my opinion of VantagePoint I would tell them my story, and say that my personal opinion is low; but however, it may be possible to benefit from the product if you have the requisite time and experience. I would suggest to them that they may be better off doing their own study and research, and create their own system and plan.
bluetipex said:
Great comments. I agree that the tool is probably not for beginners. Its basically a data base of forecasts rather than a trading system. One point you made is absolutely right on....trading success is within you. Its a mental game and most people defeat themselves by trading based on emotion or blaming others for their problems. It sounds to me like you have your head in the right place....good luck to you.