USA Debt Crisis

[Atilla]

In short:

-Yes, markets were given too much of a free rein pre 2008 crash.
-There needs to be a mix of both capitalism and socialism (intervention), 85% and 15% respectively in my opinion. I'd guess it's about 60% Cap and 40% soc now, or maybe even 50-50??
-Interventions which are contributing to the mess (i should clarify that government aren't the only problem): Central bank money printing, bailouts for institutions which should've failed, market prop-ups (housing, stocks, autos, etc, although they're terrible at each which will lead to worse problems).
-The "bond vigilantes" wouldn't be shorting without good reason, and they certainly won't be able to change a trend. You can't blame speculators for governments not running their houses correctly.
-Banning short selling only exacerbates the inherent weakness of the market you're trying to prop up.

To clarify you are saying free or self regulation of markets pre crash was too loose.

Are you aware that the likes of Goldman and eventually JP Morgan - in fact no bank can stand a run on any one day to withdraw deposits? Banks utilise short term deposits to make long term loans. It is the nature of Banks. That's what they do.

You are looking at total meltdown.

Then the dominoe effect of every other global business ceasing operations due to no money being available would have followed ensuite.



You brandish the free market when it suits you and not when it doesn't. Have you followed through the chain of events to its conclusion?

1929 would have looked like a cake walk.


I see the problem as giving the bailout to the Banks and not the People to service debt. There lies the crux of our problem.

US needs to.
1. Raise taxes
2. Reduce spending on Pentagon and Nasa projects...
3. Give money to those in need.

Simple really.

 

[Martinghoul]

True enough.

I love the way this crisis and its ramifications have been portrayed as a failure of capitalism. Capitalism? What on earth is "capitalist" about our current system that so richly rewards failure?

This is in fact a failure of socialism, big statism, heavy handed yet utterly ineffectual regulation and ignorant government meddling. The answer these clowns propose is of course more socialism, a larger state, heavier-handed but equally ineffectual regulation and increased government meddling of unparalleled ignorance.

People say "buy gold". I say "F*** gold. Buy guns, gin and mantraps".

Of course it's a failure of capitalism... The rewarding of failure is a by-product of the attempts to keep the capitalist system going.

 

[Pazienza]

I see the problem as giving the bailout to the Banks and not the People to service debt. There lies the crux of our problem.


3. Give money to those in need.

Simple really.

So people get loans they shouldn't have had to buy shiny things they didn't need and houses they couldn't afford.

Then when they can't keep up the payments they should get personal bailouts so this kind of madness can continue?

 

[Pazienza]

Of course it's a failure of capitalism... The rewarding of failure is a by-product of the attempts to keep the capitalist system going.

But this isn't capitalism. Capitalism is "Do good, get stuff, do bad, get rogered sans lube", not "do good, get stuff, do bad, what the hell, have some stuff anyway". What we have is not a capitalist system.

 

[Atilla]

Marvelous isn't it how the markets can focus attention like they do exposing the weaknesses wherever they go. You seem to be arguing that markets create this weakness ! Sounds like a typical socialist nanny state whinge to me.

I am not a socialist - just call it as it is.

Socialism saved capitalist **** and you are in denial.

Capitalism totally failed.

If not for socialist bailouts it will have culminated in the total meltdown of the financial system followed by the rest of the economy.

What does that tell you about capitalism without controls.

You lot are crazy delusional fascists in denial...

You lot do not understand the nature of what took place in the last 20-30 years at all do you?

 

[JRP2891]

To clarify you are saying free or self regulation of markets pre crash was too loose.


US needs to.
1. Raise taxes
2. Reduce spending on Pentagon and Nasa projects...
3. Give money to those in need.

Simple really.

Too loose, however now we've gone to the other extreme. There needs to be some intervention, but not at the levels currently (as i stated in my previous post).

After hearing your socialist beliefs on how to cure the U.S, I doubt we'll ever reach agreement on this topic. Best not to go round in circles, have a good day.

 

[Atilla]

Too loose, however now we've gone to the other extreme. There needs to be some intervention, but not at the levels currently (as i stated in my previous post).

After hearing your socialist beliefs on how to cure the U.S, I doubt we'll ever reach agreement on this topic. Best not to go round in circles, have a good day.

Agreed.

So how do you interpret the bailouts of the Banks to be paid by higher taxes?

Capitalism I guess.

You are in total denial too about the transfer of wealth and skewed distribution of wealth between those who receive bonuses and those who pay tax. Those who have had bailouts and those who have lost homes and will have to pay higher taxes.

We are not just talking working class the whole middle class fabric of USA is in also in this boat.

We are talking billions and trillions and you see this as government intervention - an act of socialism wrecking the economy.

Beggars belief.

 

[Martinghoul]

But this isn't capitalism. Capitalism is "Do good, get stuff, do bad, get rogered sans lube", not "do good, get stuff, do bad, what the hell, have some stuff anyway". What we have is not a capitalist system.

Ah yes, but that's the not quite right, is it? There's all sorts of problems with unbridled capitalism, innit? Primarily arnd the definitions of "good" and "bad"...

We can certainly have a meaningful discussion about it, 'cause it's an interesting subject, fo' shizzle.

 

[counter_violent]

I am not a socialist - just call it as it is.

Socialism saved capitalist **** and you are in denial.

Capitalism totally failed.

If not for socialist bailouts it will have culminated in the total meltdown of the financial system followed by the rest of the economy.

What does that tell you about capitalism without controls.

You lot are crazy delusional fascists in denial...

You lot do not understand the nature of what took place in the last 20-30 years at all do you?

Eh !

What is says to me is that (primarily socialist) govt's have been derelict in their duties namely to ensure that effective controls and overseeing bodies are in place and operating correctly. Big over spending socialist govt are the f***** problem period. Surely you don't need more evidence than is already available (PIIGS). What makes you think that govt's know better than you or I where our money should be spent ! I actually object to having to pay vast sums in tax etc in order that big spending govt can fritter it and more away on all the nonsense and lame ducks they get involved with. Govt needs to know it's place and just get on with what it ought to be doing instead of nanny stating everything and everybody from cradle to grave.

 

[Pazienza]

Eh !

What is says to me is that (primarily socialist) govt's have been derelict in their duties namely to ensure that effective controls and overseeing bodies are in place and operating correctly. Big over spending socialist govt are the f***** problem period. Surely you don't need more evidence than is already available (PIIGS). What makes you think that govt's know better than you or I where our money should be spent ! I actually object to having to pay vast sums in tax etc in order that big spending govt can fritter it and more away on all the nonsense and lame ducks they get involved with. Govt needs to know it's place and just get on with what it ought to be doing instead of nanny stating everything and everybody from cradle to grave.

 

[Atilla]

Eh !

What is says to me is that (primarily socialist) govt's have been derelict in their duties namely to ensure that effective controls and overseeing bodies are in place and operating correctly. Big over spending socialist govt are the f***** problem period. Surely you don't need more evidence than is already available (PIIGS). What makes you think that govt's know better than you or I where our money should be spent ! I actually object to having to pay vast sums in tax etc in order that big spending govt can fritter it and more away on all the nonsense and lame ducks they get involved with. Govt needs to know it's place and just get on with what it ought to be doing instead of nanny stating everything and everybody from cradle to grave.

CV think about it - origins of problem lies in excessive debt due to sub-prime and mortgage and property boom crises. Nothing to do with social benefits exceeding tax.

You are not looking at reason why this whole fiasco came about - deregulation and the big bang in the financial sector.

Repackaging of risky assets as safe - collateral backed assets to trade again and again highly leveraged 1:30 ratios and 1:50 in some cases. What on earth do social payments got to do with it.

Social payments compared to those made to the banks are around the 2-5% level.


Let me get this clear. Are you suggesting government involvement caused this issue because they didn't let the banks sink but intervened to rescue them?

 

[scose-no-doubt]

So UK housing bubble wasn't at all supported by the welfare funded BTL landlord explosion?

 

[Pazienza]

So UK housing bubble wasn't at all supported by the welfare funded BTL landlord explosion?

 

[Atilla]

So UK housing bubble wasn't at all supported by the welfare funded BTL landlord explosion?

Of course it wasn't.

It was supported by bankers and financial experts greed with no risk management, supported by government - with their head stuck up the self regulating banks skirts.

The US wars in the last decade took / cost over 3 trillion and estimates top this above 4 eventually. How much was spent on social sservices?

If the elite leaders are ruling bunch of headless nits like you guys - the sun will rise in the East and set just before it reaches Europe. Europe will ride this storm but the US I can't see much hope for with the Republicans and Tea Party red knecks trumpeting cutting taxes.


You're all a bunch of clowns and **** takers who don't have a clue... You really don't.


Beat up - social services and migrant workers - same old scratched record.

 

[Pazienza]

Of course it wasn't.

It was supported by bankers and financial experts greed with no risk management, supported by government - with their head stuck up the self regulating banks skirts.

The US wars in the last decade took / cost over 3 trillion and estimates top this above 4 eventually. How much was spent on social sservices?

If the elite leaders are ruling bunch of headless nits like you guys - the sun will rise in the East and set just before it reaches Europe. Europe will ride this storm but the US I can't see much hope for with the Republicans and Tea Party red knecks trumpeting cutting taxes.


You're all a bunch of clowns and **** takers who don't have a clue... You really don't.


Beat up - social services and migrant workers - same old scratched record.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

What I'm beating up is a bunch of local councils whose cash flow management was so bad that they were forced to offload a sh*tload of housing stock to plug revenue holes and to form sketchy quangos that brush liabilities right off of the balance sheet.
Instead of debating points you're once again reverting to spouting off ideals and trying to pigeon hole people into your silly black/white groups based on a few opinions when, as with all things in the real world, the reality is shades of grey.

For clarity's sake please tell me why you think the country will benefit from from increased welfare hand outs?

 

[Doomberg]

Sorry i felt left out with all the pic posting, so please accept this cat sporting an alarmed expression

 

[barryb]

Atilla, tell your government lefty idiots to stop intervening on rates which only serve to inflate the next asset bubble! Thanks.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

he's long gold.

 

[Pazienza]

he's long gold.

He's long property.