The Trading Journey of Lurker

[lurkerlurker]

Hi LL

yikes!

have you seen this thread I started about the pros and cons of placing stops first
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=24352

Fibonelli

Taken a look at that thread - there seems to be a lot of disagreement and confusion about this. Is there anything wrong with placing the order like so?

Dow
Limit to buy at 13550.
Then
OCO - sell at either 13580 or 13540.

 

[lurkerlurker]

Trading Summary, 18 May 2007

Pardon the brevity.

Instruments: DJIA, FTSE 100.
Platform: SpreadBetting (CMC)
Trades Executed:

FTSE 100
Trades to follow - easier to cut n paste from a spreadsheet when I get the backoffice statement

DJIA
Trades to follow - easier to cut n paste from a spreadsheet when I get the backoffice statement


Net Total: -15 pips.
Net Loss: 3.3%
Win/Loss Ratio: TBC

Absolute nightmare of a day. Bought high, sold low. Sold low, bought high. Overtraded. Average loss must be at least 3x average profit. Winning trades seemed to be scalpers. Made one good +10 at the end of the day, around 7:30. Then packed it in. Short term direction was quite difficult to call. Only decent trade made during the day was early, and would have been worth around 25 pips had I not made an error in my covering order, leaving me with +5 when I realised my mistake and entered the corresponding trade as a market order.

Going to relax with beer 'n' book tonight - then it will be Trading in the Zone for the weekend, amending this entry, and doing some rigorous backtesting of a Dow strategy, which will be posted here before the open on Monday.

Sorry if my lack of progress is frustrating to those who are trying to guide me in the right direction.

Have a relaxing weekend all.

(Oh, and in terms of external pressures, a few negative individuals in my life are rather down on this whole trading idea, and keep belittling my efforts. When I double my account in a week, it's "free money" and "not bad for sitting on your ****". When I give back large profits, I am a "mug", and my endeavours are "gambling".) I can't disagree with the "mug" part regarding giving back profits, but I'm sure some of you here can relate to my experience in this regard.

I forget the name, but I seem to recall reading a post by a chap who did this for a living at the exchange. He quit to trade from home, and people's attitudes went from "you're one of those guys with the loud jackets" to "so, you gamble?". I'm not hung up on status, don't refer to myself as a "trader" in public - only close friends and family know, and to be honest I am a little disappointed with the attitude.

Not all negative though.
One wily relative in particular is rather confident in my abilities, and knows a little about the market, and assured me recently that losses were a part of trading and that I would recover them in due course. That was encouraging. One of my old workmates called me last night to ask about trading CFDs on US stocks in the evenings. Seemed to be quite interested in my opinions.
So I can count one friend and one relative (out of all those who know about my trading, which is quite a small number) who are supportive or at least neutral.

Perhaps I feel more pressure to succeed because of this, and it is something I should work out. Also, being at home all day isn't good for my social life and general self worth. Perhaps I am letting my self esteem get a little too tied up in trading, or maybe just a bad reaction to a bad week.

Anyways, I'll learn more, backtest more, and have less stress over the weekend, so hopefully I'll be right as rain on Monday.

 

[firewalker99]

What about the plan?

Some of your losses are easier explained than others...

The plan said go with the trend right? and let your profits run?
This picture however tells quite a different story:

Covered my long at 20, +1.

Short 520.

Covered.-27 for today!

Short 539. Now drop, dammnit!

Short 545 (cash)

The word "short" seems to have a big correlation to "loss".
I guess I can only repeat what I said earlier this week, what would the result be if you took only longs and let those profits run? A rather rhetoric question...

 

[firewalker99]

Sorry if my lack of progress is frustrating to those who are trying to guide me in the right direction.

Making progress takes time. For some it takes weeks, months, for others years or longer... Just don't let yourself get frustrated in the process.

(Oh, and in terms of external pressures, a few negative individuals in my life are rather down on this whole trading idea, and keep belittling my efforts. When I double my account in a week, it's "free money" and "not bad for sitting on your ****". When I give back large profits, I am a "mug", and my endeavours are "gambling".) I can't disagree with the "mug" part regarding giving back profits, but I'm sure some of you here can relate to my experience in this regard.

Although I can't comment on your personal situation, I do understand but I think you need to be realistic about what trading really is. It's not about doubling your account in one week and then giving it all back the week after; it's about small but consistent profits.

Perhaps I feel more pressure to succeed because of this, and it is something I should work out. Also, being at home all day isn't good for my social life and general self worth. Perhaps I am letting my self esteem get a little too tied up in trading, or maybe just a bad reaction to a bad week.

That might explain a bit the overtrading part. Perhaps you feel the need to prove a point to somebody (or yourself). If you feel you are sitting behind the screen to long and it doesn't suit your personality, you could adopt your strategy into a bigger timeframe. Or you could trade only the first 2 hours of the day to see what happens. Take +10 out of that and quit for the day. If there is no clear signal, you don't take any. If there is, you take it and win or lose according to your stops & targets.

 

[jacinto]

Lurker,

Sorry if I just repeat what has been said before, and I dont want to rub salt on the wound, so hope you dont take it on the wrong side, but here you go:

1) you over trade!

2) you dont stick to your plan.


Sort the second out and the first wont be a problem.

have a great weekend.

j

 

[lurkerlurker]

New Dow Method

Hi all

Thanks for the support last week. CounterViolent, Frugi, FireWalker, Atilla, Dinos, fibonelli, and many others have given some good advice and been suitably frank regarding my progress. (no preference expressed, and apologies if I missed anybody out) I did say I would work on formulating a tighter system over the weekend, and work on my trading psychology also. The following is the result - it could use a little refinement, and I would appreciate comments and feedback. I've also worked my way through a good part of "Trading for a Living" and "Trading in the Zone" - interesting reads.

Instrument: DJIA (rolling cash, SB)

Strategy
At 1500, view 15 min chart. Observe MACD histogram to determine long term
trend. If trend is up, look to buy. If trend is down, look to short.

Examine the 5 minute chart to determine support and resistance levels and
confirm trend. Establish a "zone" where you would consider buying (ie around
support). Consider stop loss levels and profit targets. The zone must be
within the range of the last 2 30 min bars. Do not buy above the range of the
last hour.

Look at the 1 minute chart, which has 8 and 21 period DEMAs. If the 8 period
DEMA becomes greater than the 21 period DEMA while price is in the zone and a
long signal was given earlier, buy. Only trade if a sensible stop loss is
within 10 tics of entry. Maximum risk per trade: 10 tics. (DEMA method courtesy the excellent Dinos)

While in the trade, overlay the DEMA on 2, 3, 5, and 10 minute charts to get
successive entry confirmations. Pyramiding could be added later, but presently
would present inappropriate risk, except in the case where stop loss on the
first position was +14 (4 point spread, plus 10 point S/L on the second
position).

Every 15 mins, check long term trend on 15 min MACD. Write this down. Every 5
mins, consider possible entry zones in direction of the trend. Watch 1 min
chart for 5 min, look for DEMA crosses in direction of trend. While in a
trade, only rely on DEMA and RSI/CCI divergence as exit indicators on 1,2,3,5
minute charts (divergence must persist over 15 minutes, ideally with 3 peaks /
troughs).

Rules
No trading against the 30 min trend.
No averaging down. (goes without saying really)
Maximum risk 10 pips.
Maximum daily loss 30 pips. (should be appropriate to my account)
Use DEMA crossovers, RSI / CCI divergence on 1 minute to exit.
No new trades before 1500 or after 2030
Breakeven stoploss at +10. Trailing stoploss (50%) at 20.

Example

15 min MACD up. 5 min shows support at 14500.

DEMA crossover on 1 min. Buy at 13502. Stoploss at 13492 (below support).
Price moves to 13512. SL moved to breakeven. Price moves to 13522. SL moved to
13512. Price moves to 13514, then advances to 13525. Stoploss moved to 13514.
Price moves to 13540, then retraces to 13535. 20 minute RSI diveregence
confirmed, exit at 13530 for +28. Maximum risk 10.

I would be particularly interested on comments regarding the italicised portions. I could do with extra feedback here.

Given the choices of buy, hold, or sell, I think this system is sufficient in that it only offers 2/3 options at any given time. Experienced traders have pointed out that I do not do very well with the freedom to trade a market both ways. If I see indicators of a major reversal contradicting the 15 min MACD histogram trend, I'll cover positions and stay out. I shall not bet the farm on a short in an uptrend.

Anyone care to comment on the efficacy of such a system?

 

[ceydababy]

Trading system.

Hi there Lurker,

Reading with interest your trading system you are proposing to use. I am not the most experienced trader on these boards, but can turn a profit. I am sure there are a lot more experienced guys than me on here, who may disagree with what I am about to say. However, if I were you I would stick to a simple system. In my opinion a trading system should be SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE.

I strongly believe that viewing 5 different time frames is more likely to confuse than confirm. When I first started trading I was told a one liner that I still stand by to this day...."The trader who trades one time frame always has an idea where the market is headed....The trader who trades five is NEVER too sure"

I have read books, watched videos in that respect I pretty much have the T Shirt, and I can only stress SIMPLICITY is the key.

One of the mistakes I made when I first started is trying to trade every peak and trough in the market. Now I am quite happy to use a simple EMA/MA, MACD and RSI based system whilst keep an eye on the Bollinger bands. I try and trade a 10 minute time frame although may adjust for volatility. It works a treat, you don't catch every move but then after a while you realise that the way you burn through accounts is to try and catch every move. One in five of my trades are break even or hit my offside stop. The other 4 trades making profit.

The one thing I learnt quickly is that if you are trading a system you need to take every signal, the fewer the signals the better. I look for a system that throws me one or two Gilt edged entries a day, and I make sure I take them. If they don't work out I am confident the next one will.

Having used a 1 minute time frame I find that systems based on this small time frame throw entry signals all over the place and you end up either losing or taking nothing out of a massive move because you got shaken out. I am sure having made this statement I am going to get a barrage of messages from people telling me how they made millions off a 1 minute chart !! I am sure people do, all I am doing here is expressing my opinion.

At the end of the day this game is all about making profit. I find a larger time frame smooths out the 'noise' on the 1 minute,2 minute charts that make me very twitchy.

In terms of peoples attitude to trading, my Mum was very nervous when I first started and imagined me as Nick Leeson on a bigger scale !! However, support from my friends and family has on the whole been pretty good. I do agree that people do knock this business as you need to be 'lucky' and other comments I have heard is "what makes you think you can make money when millions lose!" all that kind of crap. All I will say is stick to your guns. I have a few people who I listen too, fellow institutional traders that I know because they 'understand' the business. Other people who knock it I just put it down to their lack of knowledge thus a lack of understanding.

Other things I try and do...and DO is....Not to watch Bloomberg TV, CNBC, read other peoples opinions on market direction. I find that this will often skew my ability to trade. I stick to my system and don't care what anyone elses opinion on market direction is.

Hope this has been of help....Good luck in your trading...

PS. good luck with your system....but I am convinced there is a simpler way to achieve the results you are looking for.

 

[lurkerlurker]

Hi there Lurker,

Reading with interest your trading system you are proposing to use. I am not the most experienced trader on these boards, but can turn a profit. I am sure there are a lot more experienced guys than me on here, who may disagree with what I am about to say. However, if I were you I would stick to a simple system. In my opinion a trading system should be SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE.

I strongly believe that viewing 5 different time frames is more likely to confuse than confirm. When I first started trading I was told a one liner that I still stand by to this day...."The trader who trades one time frame always has an idea where the market is headed....The trader who trades five is NEVER too sure"

Interesting point. Do you suggest that I perhaps whittle down my system to look at two timeframes only (for confirmation), or that I stick only to one?

I have read books, watched videos in that respect I pretty much have the T Shirt, and I can only stress SIMPLICITY is the key.

One of the mistakes I made when I first started is trying to trade every peak and trough in the market. Now I am quite happy to use a simple EMA/MA, MACD and RSI based system whilst keep an eye on the Bollinger bands. I try and trade a 10 minute time frame although may adjust for volatility. It works a treat, you don't catch every move but then after a while you realise that the way you burn through accounts is to try and catch every move. One in five of my trades are break even or hit my offside stop. The other 4 trades making profit.

The one thing I learnt quickly is that if you are trading a system you need to take every signal, the fewer the signals the better. I look for a system that throws me one or two Gilt edged entries a day, and I make sure I take them. If they don't work out I am confident the next one will.

Having used a 1 minute time frame I find that systems based on this small time frame throw entry signals all over the place and you end up either losing or taking nothing out of a massive move because you got shaken out. I am sure having made this statement I am going to get a barrage of messages from people telling me how they made millions off a 1 minute chart !! I am sure people do, all I am doing here is expressing my opinion.

At the end of the day this game is all about making profit. I find a larger time frame smooths out the 'noise' on the 1 minute,2 minute charts that make me very twitchy.

In terms of peoples attitude to trading, my Mum was very nervous when I first started and imagined me as Nick Leeson on a bigger scale !! However, support from my friends and family has on the whole been pretty good. I do agree that people do knock this business as you need to be 'lucky' and other comments I have heard is "what makes you think you can make money when millions lose!" all that kind of crap. All I will say is stick to your guns. I have a few people who I listen too, fellow institutional traders that I know because they 'understand' the business. Other people who knock it I just put it down to their lack of knowledge thus a lack of understanding.

Thanks for that. There are some in my life who do not take this seriously yet, think I should go back to a "real" job, etc. I'm not too concerned about this, I only mentioned it as perhaps it could be an external pressure affecting my trading psychology. I don't really have much of an ego when it comes to these things, and I have been frank about my mistakes here - I don't think it bothers me that much.

Other things I try and do...and DO is....Not to watch Bloomberg TV, CNBC, read other peoples opinions on market direction. I find that this will often skew my ability to trade. I stick to my system and don't care what anyone elses opinion on market direction is.

Sound advice - aside from posting on T2W, I don't look at other opinions on the market. I don't alter my trades according to what T2W members may post at the time. I do however rely on them for feedback, but not during trades.

Hope this has been of help....Good luck in your trading...

PS. good luck with your system....but I am convinced there is a simpler way to achieve the results you are looking for.[/QUOTE]

Helpful post, reminding me to keep it simple and stay on the path. Thanks for reading. Best of luck in your trading also - what do you trade?

 

[lurkerlurker]

Trading Summary, 21 May 2007

Instruments: DJIA, FTSE 100.
Platform: SpreadBetting (CMC)
Trades Executed:

FTSE 100
Sell 6,648 10:23:05
Buy 6,653 10:28:28

-5 pips

DJIA
Buy 13,547 15:41:25
Sell 13,565 15:57:34
Buy 13,558 16:28:21
Sell 13,548 16:31:17
Buy 13,555 16:49:18
Sell 13,560 16:59:13
Sell 13,577 17:20:11
Buy 13,576 17:31:37

+14

Net Total: +9 pips.
Win / Loss: 3/2

The new system is working out well. Bear in mind I only traded for 3 hours between 3pm and 6pm. Wasn't really at the screen much between 5 and 6 either. Missed the big swing at 8, which the system would have grabbed a good 30 pips or more from.

Intend to trade a full day today.

For those of you who are looking for the commentary behind the trades - well my trading record is mostly split between here and the Dow 2007 thread. I post trades there in real time, and a summary here. Comments regarding each trade are on the Dow thread. Sorry if this seems a little inconsistent.

Perhaps I should post a copy of Dow thread posts here for easy access? Suggestions welcome.

 

[firewalker99]

Hi there Lurker,

Reading with interest your trading system you are proposing to use. I am not the most experienced trader on these boards, but can turn a profit. I am sure there are a lot more experienced guys than me on here, who may disagree with what I am about to say. However, if I were you I would stick to a simple system. In my opinion a trading system should be SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE.

I strongly believe that viewing 5 different time frames is more likely to confuse than confirm. When I first started trading I was told a one liner that I still stand by to this day...."The trader who trades one time frame always has an idea where the market is headed....The trader who trades five is NEVER too sure"

Yes, adhere to the KISS-principle. It not only makes it easier for you to recognize a signal, it also helps you from having to decide "live" what to do because you have too many confounding parameters in your system. The basic rule should be that if you can write down your system, give it to somebody who knows next to nothing about trading or charts and see if they can execute it correctly, then you most likely have a well defined set of rules.

I think the post from ceydababy is very good advice. The more timeframes you look at the more you are going to see different things. And when zooming in to 1 or 2-min time frames you will try and catch the smaller swings but leave out the big ones. 1 good trade with 20 points profit can make up for 3 losers of 6 points profit. Also, I think a 1 or 2-min timeframe means a lot of stress from missing a signal...

 

[firewalker99]

Anyone care to comment on the efficacy of such a system?

I'm not really in a position to comment on your system as I know very little about indicators and use none of them myself. That doesn't mean you can't make them work though. Here are comments specific about the italic portions:

Establish a "zone" where you would consider buying (ie around
support). Consider stop loss levels and profit targets. The zone must be
within the range of the last 2 30 min bars.

This is good, trying to establish a price level in advance where you might consider buying. That way you will be prepared and be looking in the right places when the market is open.

Do not buy above the range of the last hour.

I'm not sure what this is based on?

No new trades before 1500 or after 2030

Defining a specific time frame for your trading is a good thing. It's better to limit your trades and look for the best signals and don't take any gambles on a pre-market trade or too close to the EOD.

Trailing stoploss (50%) at 20.

That's something you have to backtest obviously. Check which method of trailing your profits is the best. It's often a difficult exercise to find the right equilibruim of not taking profits too early but also you don't want to give back big gains when the market suddenly decides to reverse.

 

[lurkerlurker]

Firewalker, thanks for the comments! Much appreciated. I think everyone is correct regarding the timeframes. I think I will use a 5 min chart for general use, and determine trend with a 15 min.

I'll also spend some time backtesting trailing stops tonight, seeking a happy medium. I'll try and remove a few of the unnecessary rules from the system to simplify it also. I'll work on that while trading the Dow today. The one hour bar rule was to prevent me executing a trade with a poor risk / reward after I had missed the move.

Thanks for the feedback - I'll finish this later as I'm about to miss a signal while typing.

 

[ceydababy]

Interesting point. Do you suggest that I perhaps whittle down my system to look at two timeframes only (for confirmation), or that I stick only to one?

Thanks for that. There are some in my life who do not take this seriously yet, think I should go back to a "real" job, etc. I'm not too concerned about this, I only mentioned it as perhaps it could be an external pressure affecting my trading psychology. I don't really have much of an ego when it comes to these things, and I have been frank about my mistakes here - I don't think it bothers me that much.

Sound advice - aside from posting on T2W, I don't look at other opinions on the market. I don't alter my trades according to what T2W members may post at the time. I do however rely on them for feedback, but not during trades.


I have whittled myself down to two markets. Brent Crude and Cable. I tried the FTSE for about a month but found it a little too choppy and couldn't get the moves I was looking for. However, my list of total markets traded include FTSE, DOW, S&P, Brent Crude, US Crude, £/Y , $/Y, Euro/$, AU$/US$, Gold and there are probably a few more there somewhere. What I found (pardon the pun) was that I was a jack of all trades and a master of none ! So I now concentrate on just two...get to know the action that takes place and how it works...The best way to work.

You should find your system will work on all time frames, but I would imagine you would find better results (not so many false entries) on a larger time frame but you may miss every peak and trough.

Personally my time frames are as follows (FTSE I would use 5 minute) Oil and Currency 10 minutes.

The great thing with this business is you are always learning, I am sure some of the more experienced guys on here like Firewalker, Gordon Gekko etc etc are still learning new things all the time !

Finally I would just like to put down a statement that I found on a website yesterday and it is so spot on (in my opinion)

"when you first think about trading it looks easy...after all a breakout is a breakout, a MA cross is an MA Cross. After a month you realise...DAMN This is not easy, so go around buying book after book, studying, developing etc etc. Eventually you go back to basics and amazingly the MA Cross that you trade DOES work and the BREAKOUT you are trading DOES work....It is the culmination of two great things called knowledge and practice"

Bruce Lee said " Before you start Kung Fu a punch is a punch "
" When you start Kung Fu a punch is no longer a punch"
" When you have MASTERED Kung Fu a punch is a punch"

I really think this applies to trading...Anyways enough of the philosophical bull**** ! Good luck

This describes me to a T....although I am a fair way off becoming a "master"


Hope this has been of help....Good luck in your trading...

PS. good luck with your system....but I am convinced there is a simpler way to achieve the results you are looking for.

Helpful post, reminding me to keep it simple and stay on the path. Thanks for reading. Best of luck in your trading also - what do you trade?[/QUOTE]

 

[firewalker99]

Reply 1 from DOW thread

It gives me time to determine trend from the 2 15 min bars. Also, I don't like trading just at the open. What is an appropriate time to wait, in your opinion?

I really don't like being in this short. Part of me wants to cover just so I can view the market from a neutral point again.

It all depends on the signals you are waiting for. If you backtested your system and it works then I see no reason not to take the signal. The only reason for me not to enter a trade is when figures are economics news is imminent.

Somewhere along the way you said you were going to stop looking to short.
Today the DOW offered at least a dozen (on 1 or 2min chart) entries for 13535 cash or 13570 futures, which would've been excellent entries with close stops in case of a break.

Two of my longs were on that support level, my mistake today was that I missed the 3rd possibility while I was eating because the 3rd would've been the best...

 

[firewalker99]

Reply 2 from DOW Thread

Really? All I saw was a long signal around 535.

I got a long entry signal at 35. Didn't take it because it was before 3pm.

I might have misinterpreted your statement for not trading before 3pm. In your time zone that's 30 minutes after the open right? In mine it's 30 minutes before. No trades premarket sounds sensible.

However, I don't see any reason why not to trade in the first 30 minutes after the actual open.

Let's consider for a moment you took the long entry signal. I'm pretty sure your stop would not have been hit and for the moment it would be 30 points in profit.

 

[firewalker99]

Reply 3 from DOW thread

I've already exceeded my loss limit. I might as well continue to trade until the close. Looking for another entry. It feels so good to be flat.

I'm sorry lurker, but the best advice I can give you is to quit for the day.

You didn't follow your rules, you exceeded your maximum allowed loss, you took more trades than all of us together here. It's called revenge trading, but it won't help you get your money back.

Btw: I'm long 13595 (probably around 13565 cash)
Edit: exited first half at +20, will exit other part if TL breaks

 

[firewalker99]

Reply 4 from DOW thread

Covered by ****ing accident at 80. Not in the plan. -63.

EDIT - explanation - I had a open order box with it preset to cover. I hit execute instead of cancel.

I believe somebody mentioned it before, but if you are using order types which include STOP and TARGET the second you enter a trade there is really nothing else you should be doing to adjust the trade (apart from moving your stop to breakeven - IF that is part of your plan) and these accidents can't happen anymore.

 

[firewalker99]

Reply 5 from DOW thread

I'm not actually sure where I will cover this position. It is open purely out of indecision. I support since it is only 15 points away, I ought to stick a stop above the high at 70 and hope for the best.

Hope should never be part of your plan... You need something based on probabilities. If you don't know in advance what the odds are that your trade is going to work out or hit a certain target, you can as well be throwing darts at the charts to pinpoint entry and exit. And as surprising is this might sound, it has been studied and proven to more profitable then most traders (or at least less unprofitable).

 

[firewalker99]

Reply 6 from DOW thread

I've read your other few recent comments on the matter. I can't understand why I am doing these things. I went to great effort to formulate a plan, created a journal, read and understood all the advice which had been given here...

I am having difficulty understanding my own behavior.

I am in a trade at the moment, and exiting a position early due to overtrading wasn't in my plan either. I have a stop. If it is hit, that is me for the day. Good advice jacinto. Otherwise, I'll babysit this one until I greedily take a 2 pip profit so I can have one more mistake to add to my twenty odd for the day.

For those of you who are interested, I intend to post a full review of todays crappy performance, and what I can determine to be the reasons behind it, by around 10pm tonight. First, I will have this trade finished, and eat something. I've had no food all day either, which isn't helping my concentration.

I'm trading tomorrow on paper only. A break is in order. Something psychological is screwing with my performance, and I need to sort it out before I risk another penny.

Ironically, this trade seems to be the only one which may turn out okay (short 75).

Thanks for the advice again. Sorry about this.

Your system is only small part of trading (check the pie).
This comes from http://www.trading-plan.com/mindset_general.html
In my opinion system & money money management or responsible for only 30%. Trading is 70% about discipline and psychology.

 

[firewalker99]

Please inform me

Of course, back before this indicator rubbish I loved days like this.

I remember back when I traded with price, volume, and chart patterns, On a particularly choppy day, I once took £195 out of the Dow in an hour, trading no more than £5pp. Of course, I thought I knew everything then! Stop and reverse at key S/R levels.

Why the hell change to indicators if you think they are rubbish?!