Terror......

[Atilla]

As you know J this is a difficult one because if it's tagged conspiracy theory then many objective people just switch off... I was attempting to take a random mind walk through this thing based on little bits of inconsistencies here and there ...

One such "inconsistency" is the absence of a terror attack on US soil since 911 ... I'm glad there hasn't been I have many relatives there but .... it seems a little odd.. improbable almost..

Too far to swim.


Even Cat Stevens was denied access.


I'm sure Dick Chenney is planning another test exercise somewhere? He seems to have retired from public life now that he has made his billions. The great architect that he is. What a man? Master minds big **** and gets other little s h i t s to shovell it.

 

[Hook Shot]

JTrader has a point HS. You could give us your view on Brown's new detention rules?

Would you say he has jerked his knee in response to the recent terrorist attacks?

Do you think this jerk was a measured jerk of the knee or more of an uncontrolled flinch?

How do you think the markets will respond to a Brown or Cameroon win in the near elections due upon us?

Which man do you think the terrorists would vote for or would like to win? Is this what G.Brown really telling us. That he wishes to upset the terrorists so we vote for him as I'm sure we all would like to hangem?

Let those worms roam wild and free and make sure you recycle the can...

So many questions so I'll take the obvious one first
I think extending detention time makes sense on one level.... I mean why not keep potentially murderous individuals out of circulation so that they can be interrogated.
We could argue about 28 or 56 days but what caught my attention was the apparent escalation of homeland security measures generally .. which appeared to be announced.

Was it a knee jerk response to recent terror plots ..... it would appear so ... but Gordo did get the chance to look Presidential very early in his term .... probably coincidence.

 

[Atilla]

So many questions so I'll take the obvious one first
I think extending detention time makes sense on one level.... I mean why not keep potentially murderous individuals out of circulation so that they can be interrogated.
We could argue about 28 or 56 days but what caught my attention was the apparent escalation of homeland security measures generally .. which appeared to be announced.

Was it a knee jerk response to recent terror plots ..... it would appear so ... but Gordo did get the chance to look Presidential very early in his term .... probably coincidence.

I concur fully. My sentiments likewise about Brown. Also, funny how Cameroon is in Africa his party turning on him, whilst G.Brown is gloating in all the bomb threats and floods and as you say looks presidential. Life indeed is truly funny. Whacky even. Blair and what's his face could not have spun anything like this in a million years of planning.

Regarding detaining the idiots, why not deny them access. Send them back and register them on Interpol as wanted uspects. That'll **** them off and we won't have to pay tax payers money. I need to see justification for the 56 days. I'm also happy to let the Lords decide. They know the ins and outs of the police and security services. Bless them our Lords. Places a little stop check on our rogue politicians.

I really think it's time we gave the LibDems a chance. Alternatively, Kenneth Clarke if he is still not sick and tired of the Tory party to serve them any good.

 

[Hook Shot]

I'm trying to take a balanced view...

Hi HS

you seem to have a hang up on the word conspiracy. Don't let this word make you think that accounts that are opposed to the "official" explanation are all BS!

eg. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/4512862.stm Dwain Chambers admitted conspiring with Balco pharmaceuticals to gain an unfair THG chemical advantage over his co-athletes.....the point being, conspiracy is just a word!

You know as well as I do that the word conspiracy especially in this context is "loaded".

As I hinted at earlier this is kind of a free thinking type of "thing" I'm not pushing any type of view or at least it's not intentional........ it's actually more challenging to take this flexible approach ...imo.

Your comment about accounts which differ from the official line etc .......... is interesting. I certainly do not accept everything I read, hear and see as FACT... regardless of the source...

 

[jacinto]

Bless them our Lords. Places a little stop check on our rogue politicians.

ironic isnt it........an undemocratically erected house (not voted for office) end up controlling those that were voted in......mmmmmm...........only in the UK

no wonder you guys drive on the left :cheesy:
and no wonder door knobs open the other way around :cheesy:

 

[Hook Shot]

I concur fully. My sentiments likewise about Brown. Also, funny how Cameroon is in Africa his party turning on him, whilst G.Brown is gloating in all the bomb threats and floods and as you say looks presidential. Life indeed is truly funny. Whacky even. Blair and what's his face could not have spun anything like this in a million years of planning.

Regarding detaining the idiots, why not deny them access. Send them back and register them on Interpol as wanted uspects. That'll **** them off and we won't have to pay tax payers money. I need to see justification for the 56 days. I'm also happy to let the Lords decide. They know the ins and outs of the police and security services. Bless them our Lords. Places a little stop check on our rogue politicians.

I really think it's time we gave the LibDems a chance. Alternatively, Kenneth Clarke if he is still not sick and tired of the Tory party to serve them any good.

1- I think Tony was at a G8 meeting for one of the two London bombings ....

2 - Where have all these terrorists suddenly sprung from... ?

3 - Lets assume there have been a small group of militants/radicals in this country for years .... as seems reasonable perhaps .... every country has them.
Why are they getting busy now ?

Cameron, Lib Dems ..... perhaps a case of different tie same suit ?

Markets/Investment - homeland security must now be a key theme .... sort of like commodities was two or three years ago........

 

[Atilla]

ironic isnt it........an undemocratically erected house (not voted for office) end up controlling those that were voted in......mmmmmm...........only in the UK

no wonder you guys drive on the left :cheesy:
and no wonder door knobs open the other way around :cheesy:

Good point Jacinto, but these Lords are elderly established near to death souls.

They don't have ambition as they have reached the top.
They don't need money as much as they are about to kick the bucket and trying to avoid inheritance tax anyway.
They have experience of life and informed enough to make the right decision.
At the ripe old age they are more likely to have their hearts in the right place.

Along comes some rogue elected politician like Blair and starts selling these peerage titles and what do you get. Like a cancerous poison that smirky git TB. Undermining our great institution. I don't know but I like the Lords.

The problem is what other check would you have on politicians if you got rid of the Lords.

I like the Monarchy and the Lords. Value for money imho.

 

[jacinto]

Good point Jacinto, but these Lords are elderly established near to death souls.

They don't have ambition as they have reached the top.
They don't need money as much as they are about to kick the bucket and trying to avoid inheritance tax anyway.
They have experience of life and informed enough to make the right decision.
At the ripe old age they are more likely to have their hearts in the right place.

Along comes some rogue elected politician like Blair and starts selling these peerage titles and what do you get. Like a cancerous poison that smirky git TB. Undermining our great institution. I don't know but I like the Lords.

The problem is what other check would you have on politicians if you got rid of the Lords.

I like the Monarchy and the Lords. Value for money imho.

how about Robespierre gets Gordo et al :cheesy:

and gordo means fat in spanish. lol

 

[Atilla]

how about Robespierre gets Gordo et al :cheesy:

and gordo means fat in spanish. lol

Robespierre for the Lords would have my vote not sure about Gordo Gordon though. Say Nah to that... Perhaps when his appetite for glory is saturated.

Politicians are too much into their ambition's and pockets.

Well it's bed time chaps.

Very nice thread HS. Nice thought provoking ideas to linger upon.

NN everyone...

 

[JTrader]

Anyway, after the conspiracy thread, i decided to try and not get into these highly controversial discussions any more.

Besides, i prefer to believe that the ruling elite & government love us all !

Will follow with interest......

 

[dcraig1]

If you want to see an example of how badly "terrorism laws" and the police enforcing them can behave, look no further than the case of Dr Haneef arrested on the Gold Coast in Australia in connection with the recent attempted car bombings in the UK. It would be laughable if the implications were not so serious.

Dr Haneef was charged with recklessly providing a SIM card to a terrorist organization. At the bail hearing before a magistrate, the police stated that the SIM card was found in one of the car bombs. Evidently the magistrate was not at all convinced that he was a danger to anybody and granted bail.

Subseqently it transpires that the SIM card was not in one of the car bombs but in the possesion of one of those arrested in Liverpool. How could the police not be aware of this ? We're not talking PC Plod here getting around on a bicycle. There must have been scores of them working on the case.

Anyway, not to be deterred by the rule of law, the federal immigration minister takes away his visa so he will be locked up in an immigration detention centre. Rather than this, he elects not to post bail and in now held on remand.

It gets better though. The Sunday papers (all the Murdoch papers) run front page headlines about how police found pictures of the Q1 tower on the Gold Coast - claimed to be the worlds highest residential building - and suspect him of plotting to blow it up. One even published a picture of the WTC towers on 9/11. Never mind the fact that probably millions of tourists a year snap the Q1 tower.

The outrage is so great that the Federal police commissioner is forced to deny that there is any suspicion of a plot to blow up anything.

But it gets better still. When questioned by police as to why he had the names and phone numbers of "known terrorists" in his diary he denies all knowledge. It turns out that the police themselves wrote them in the diary. I find this incredible - talk about compromising evidence.

All this is a little lesson in what happens when hysteria takes over and certain politicians and the gutter press seek to fan the flames.

 

[trendie]

And how do you distinguish between the good and the bad? If you don't abide by rule of law than you are no different to the Terrorist?

If you make up the law willy nilly than you are still no different to some football hooligan who make up rules of engagement about fights before and after a match?

Hang terrorists by all means, I agree. But how do you identify them first?

best post so far, and pivotal one.

how do we know we are the good guys?
(if you go and shoot someone, you get put in prison. if you put on a uniform and kill someone, they give you a medal)
hypothetical: a bomb explodes killing 20 people, and injures 32. is this good or bad?
if you need to know whether this happened in London or Baghdad before deciding, perhaps you need to check your bigotry-quotient.
was this hypothetical event monstrous or a sad loss?
if you need to know if it was a truck-bomb (bad) or a misguided air-strike by our "brave-boys" (sad loss; "we will instigate an inquiry") before deciding, here again you need to redefine your sense of humanity, and how you value human beings, and why you need to know where they are from before deciding.

terrorism could be merely a pretext for other objectives, whatever they may be.
in a more general way, it is interesting how things are defined and interpreted.
when a doctor attempts to kill innocent people, we need to re-evaluate how we let foreign doctors into the UK.
When a british doctor, Shipman, kills approximately 400 innocent people, we dont suddenly suggest ALL british trainees should be vetted for homicidal tendencies.

its all about how we "belong", and how we decide whether "they" are part of our group or not.

it would be interesting when the next potential attack is committed by someone called, not Ibrahim, or Mohammed, or Abdul, but Kevin, Andrew or John.

 

[Splitlink]

Trendie,

You can call them what you like, but I will call anyone who plans and commits mass and indiscriminate slaughter of human beings as a terrorist. As such, I would have no hesitation, whatsoever, in executing the lot of them. If they are part of "our group" as you term it, then I would say that they have no homicidal tendencies against us. If they belong to the "other group" and they are found to have dynamite, arms or anything similar in their possession then, if they have not committed the act, yet, out to a British equivalent of Guantanamo Bay with them.

There are going to be 10 billion of us here within 50 years. I don't think there is space or time to mess about with such people.

We have the problem, here with ETA. No matter what Zapatero tries, he is thwarted by their intransigence. Every time they call a truce, it is to give themselves time to build up another arms pile. They've killed and maimed thousands of innocents , people who had as much right to life as anyone else and, who, most of the time, had no political axe to grind with anyone.

Split

 

[JTrader]

"Patriotism is about love of one's country, not worship of government."


"If a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."
~ the Bible, Mark iii. 25.


"THIS IS NOT ABOUT TYRANNY, IT'S ABOUT FREEDOM AND SECURITY" (04/05/04).
Article by the Foreign Secretary Jack Straw for the Daily Telegraph newspaper


Marshall McLuhan - "Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity."


“Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way round, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.” Adolf Hitler.


It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. Voltaire.


"There are decades when nothing happens, and weeks when decades happen." - Lenin.


The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin (1706-01-17 – 1790-04-17) was an American inventor, journalist, printer, diplomat, and statesman.


In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell.


None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsely believe they are free. - Goethe


Mark Twain

"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."

 

[blackcab]

There are going to be 10 billion of us here within 50 years.

B Ark.

 

[JTrader]

B Ark.

 

[JTrader]

.......... and we don't seem to care or perhaps the great british public can't really see . They even have us watching a reality show called Big Brother - you have to hand it to these guys ......

I'm not sure people realise that the laugh is not on the housemates but on the public at large... The cctv capital of the world some say.....

And by and large, they are an unrepresenative, wanabee celeb, attention seeking, dimb-witted & fake set of housemates too! :cheesy:

I notice most of them smoke. Not sure what that says about the representativeness of them...

 

[TWI]

We know things are bad. Worse than bad. They’re crazy
The Bush administration is not a government at all. We all know that. It is a crime
family—an oligarchy of racketeers. They have no moral authority, no
legitimacy, no right to govern. They’re criminals. Who doesn’t know this?
And, yet, congressmen and senators refuse to do their jobs. They’ve
"taken impeachment off the table". They have agreed that Bush is above the
law. Fine. Then we’ll have to persuade them that they’re wrong or find
another way. But Bush has to go. How else can we re-establish democracy in
America? How else can we reinstate the legitimate power of congress? Every
day we read about some new attack on our freedom. Every day our constitution
is further trashed. This week Bush banned public demonstrations against the
war. Last month he issued an executive order that makes himself dictator if
another terrorist attack takes place inside the US. The month before that
the Congress passed a law that makes it easier for Bush to declare martial
law and militarize the country. "
http://www.uruknet.de/?s1=1&p=34713&s2=23

 

[JTrader]

http://www.uruknet.de/?s1=1&p=34713&s2=23

These links say an awful lot...........

 

[Splitlink]

We know things are bad. Worse than bad. They’re crazy
The Bush administration is not a government at all. We all know that. It is a crime
family—an oligarchy of racketeers. They have no moral authority, no
legitimacy, no right to govern. They’re criminals. Who doesn’t know this?
And, yet, congressmen and senators refuse to do their jobs. They’ve
"taken impeachment off the table". They have agreed that Bush is above the
law. Fine. Then we’ll have to persuade them that they’re wrong or find
another way. But Bush has to go. How else can we re-establish democracy in
America? How else can we reinstate the legitimate power of congress? Every
day we read about some new attack on our freedom. Every day our constitution
is further trashed. This week Bush banned public demonstrations against the
war. Last month he issued an executive order that makes himself dictator if
another terrorist attack takes place inside the US. The month before that
the Congress passed a law that makes it easier for Bush to declare martial
law and militarize the country. "
http://www.uruknet.de/?s1=1&p=34713&s2=23

Now this is an interesting comment. I do believe that Bush's administration should be changed but, not only was he legally elected once, but twice. So the method of election in the US must be changed, in some way, and that is up to the Americans. Every nation has the government that it deserves.

The part that interests me, though, is that after the Northern Ireland troubles the UK and Ulster have both Gerry Adams and McGuinness in positions of government. If they are not the biggest pair of terrorists and murderers unhung, I don't know who are.

So who is calling the kettle black, here?

Split