System sellers on T2W?

[kwickwool]

How can you get that dough ,if you have it?It is difficult making contacts with the big boys.

O D T

yes difficult, guess where there is a will there is a way...............

 

[arabianights]

yes difficult, guess where there is a will there is a way...............

Indeed... anyone who is not an impatient imbecile could make contact if they genuinely had the goods

 

[Black Swan]

Thats why you will never get a good robot. Nothing will work on all pairs.

I know...

"Do you want me to sit in the corner and rust, or just fall apart where I'm standing?"

"Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it.."

"Life, loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it."

 

[zupcon]

A good automated system making 40 % a year consistently is priceless to somebody with $1bn , and who is making 3 % on treasuries.He could make $370m more every year,over ten years it is worth $3.7bn.The software is worth $3.7 bn.

But you have to take into acount that there are people out there who can design and build these things and do so for relatively very little money.

There was a guy interviewed on Radio 4 recently who was designing algorithmic trading systems for a cut of the profits. He claimed he'd earned 29 million GBP last year. He's probably one of the smarter one's, the worlds full of PhD physics graduates, you could probably fill a small room full of them, and employ the lot of them for the next 50 years for less than 29 million. I have friends with PhD's in physics working in R&D and earning less than a manager at a branch of McDonalds

So why would you need to pay 3.7 billion, when you can cut some guy into the deal for a tiny fraction, or pay a bunch of wage slaves to do it for a pittence ?

 

[oildaytrader]

But you have to take into acount that there are people out there who can design and build these things and do so for relatively very little money.

There was a guy interviewed on Radio 4 recently who was designing algorithmic trading systems for a cut of the profits. He claimed he'd earned 29 million GBP last year. He's probably one of the smarter one's, the worlds full of PhD physics graduates, you could probably fill a small room full of them, and employ the lot of them for the next 50 years for less than 29 million. I have friends with PhD's in physics working in R&D and earning less than a manager at a branch of McDonalds

So why would you need to pay 3.7 billion, when you can cut some guy into the deal for a tiny fraction, or pay a bunch of wage slaves to do it for a pittence ?

They will sniff out your methods and algo before you get the dosh.

Herebelow is graph of a free system I found on the net.The orignal author is clueless and selling mentoring on various forums.I added another free system and the graph shows a return of 45% per annum.The first free system makes about 23 % per annum below.

 

[zupcon]

They will sniff out your methods and algo before you get the dosh.

Oh you old cynic !

If you had goose that laid golden eggs, would you breaks its neck after it laid its first egg, or would you build it a lovely big nest and hand feed it grass, and maybe even give it a bit of its own gold back from time to time ? You certainly wouldnt be wanting your goose to be going elsewhere

If you where a goose who laid golden eggs, would you cooperate with people who tried to steal your eggs, or would you give them a nasty peck in eye when they came skulking around ?

 

[sharky1]

Thank you, and a happy and prosperous new year to you too.

I agree entirely with most of your post, apart from the sentance I've included above. Whilst its true that there are members who may well shout "foul play", that does not necessarily mean that a problem does not exist.

There a couple of problems. The first is that there is reality, and there is perception. The reality is that forum guides are not endorsed by T2W, and that T2W makes efforts to eliminate conflicts of interest, and probably even goes so far as to make this quite clear to anyone who cares to read the sites terms and conditions, and the various other bumf thats published from time to time. However the perception is that the guides have an elevated status, so their opinions carry more weight. I would argue if you had 2 vendors, selling similar products, and vendor A was flagged as "BANNED", and vendor B was flagged as a "T2W Advisor", or "T2W Forum Guide", or "T2W Moderator" then the latter would be percieved as having greater credabiity than the former.

From the materials that you've provided, and the posts that you've made, its apparent to me at least that you've committed a significant amount of effort in studying the markets, and that you've approached the task from a logical perspective, and with realistic expectations. I appologise if I've misread the situation, but you dont strike me as the sort of guy who'd endorse claims of returns in excess of 100% per week, or even 100% per month. However, the site does have forum guides who are openly making such claims. In one case, not only can they make 100% a month, they can simultaneously sit in the sun relaxing

I lose track of how long I've been in this game, its been about 6-7 years full time and I'll quite happily admit that I cant achieve 100% per week, or a 100% per month (not without an unacceptably high risk of losing a similar amount). However at least two of the sites forum guides claim to be able to do so, and by using EA's.

I acknowledge that just because I cant make a risk free, tax free 100% a month whilst relaxing in the sun doesnt mean that it cant be done, but I'd suggest from experience its quite rare, although I did once meet someone who claimed to have made good money day trading during the dot com boom, and as he was sailing around in 60 million dollars worth of boat, I had no cause to doubt he'd made money doing something, and quite possibly trading.

So the first problem is that these advisors are perpetuating a perception that risk free 100% returns per month are commonplace. I'm unclear as to how this fits in with the sites objectives of providing objective guidance to new traders, I'd argue that its a quite misleading impression. If the advisor also claims to have a commercial product that produces these returns, well... lets just say its a bit iffy.

The second problem, is that although certain members may cry "foul play", by and large those concerns will go unheeded. I'll provide just two example. The first was Mr Spreadbetting, he quite cleverly used T2W members of staff and ledgendary members to endorse his product. It was clear to anyone with a modicum of experience that the guy was a fraud, or indeed to anyone with the ability to type a few words into Google that his content had been plagerised. Still that didnt stop him from using and abusing T2W to generate the best part of a third of a million in sales. The threads are still there if you care to look, and they illustrate the ineffectiveness of members shouting "foul play"

The second example, and I really cant resist bringing it up, is of course the Wasp fiasco. In the case of Mr Spreadbetting, a moderator at least had the decency to try and put an end to his games by locking the thread, and although it was akin to locking the stable door after the horse had bolted, he at least tried, and at least had the integrity to comment on Mr Spreadbettings multi user shinnanagins. In this case T2W moved heaven and earth to supress information when someone shouted "fould play"

Having said all this, I would suggest to you that there is a problem.

Exactly, perception is reality.

 

[zupcon]

Exactly, perception is reality.

Exactly, and the perception that is being created by the forum guides that sharky appointed, is that you can sit in the sun, do very little, and make 100% a month risk free.

Members can of course challange that perception at the risk of censorship, or being banned, or ridiculed, but sharky of course has the power to either change that perception, or to promote it, and of course that is his right.

However, I have to ask, if he truly believed the perception that he's actively promoting, why bother with the hasle of running a business such as T2W when for $149 he can buy an EA and make 100% a month return sitting in the sun ?

 

[oildaytrader]

Exactly, and the perception that is being created by the forum guides that sharky appointed, is that you can sit in the sun, do very little, and make 100% a month risk free.

Members can of course challange that perception at the risk of censorship, or being banned, or ridiculed, but sharky of course has the power to either change that perception, or to promote it, and of course that is his right.

However, I have to ask, if he truly believed the perception that he's actively promoting, why bother with the hasle of running a business such as T2W when for $149 he can buy an EA and make 100% a month return sitting in the sun ?

If they changed the perception,they might just find one decent software vendor to bring in annual income close to 500 k.Its probably better to weed out the bad seeds, and stick to a high standard.

The internet is full of 5hit vendors, its the quality that will always win.

O D T

 

[Black Swan]

Can totally understand why guys *invent* (kinda rob off each other) these EAs and courses etc...looking over at forex factory there were hundreds awaiting the launch of some cobbled together free system at midnight last night...you'd swear it was the launch of Call of Duty. They were gutted when he didn't deliver at New Year... Whilst this 'give it to me now' mindest exists, hundreds of new vendors, peddling their wares from 100 quid websites, will continue to flourish...
When you see a reaction like this you can understand why so many vendors see opportunity, personally it makes me kinda depressed that so many are constantly searching for a quick fix... I had no idea before committing to this industry that there were so many ghost chasers out there...

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=209883&page=15

 

[kwickwool]

There is only so much you can protect people, if they cannot take a step back and see it for what it is then they pretty much deserve to part with the cash, a fool and his money...........
If you ask the question if the system is that good then why is he not making loads himself and bothering with selling to others? You ask that question then you always finally come to the same conclusion, because the system does not work!!!!!!

 

[oildaytrader]

There is only so much you can protect people, if they cannot take a step back and see it for what it is then they pretty much deserve to part with the cash, a fool and his money...........
If you ask the question if the system is that good then why is he not making loads himself and bothering with selling to others? You ask that question then you always finally come to the same conclusion, because the system does not work!!!!!!

There is no difference between the system seller and mentors in my humble opinion.The system seller will sell a system with rules whereas the mentor will sell a verbally described method/system.

There is a mentor selling courses on forums,yet the mentor's client's track record includes a dozen clients with blown accounts.

O D T

 

[Rossini]

There is no difference between the system seller and mentors in my humble opinion.The system seller will sell a system with rules whereas the mentor will sell a verbally described method/system.

There is a mentor selling courses on forums,yet the mentor's client's track record includes a dozen clients with blown accounts.

O D T

The difference is, a mentor can give/sell a knowledge base that the student/client can trade, learn and grow from. A system seller only gives the system for the agreed cost, the person who buys the system might not know how or why it works or even if it does work.

 

[timsk]

Hi zupcon,

Exactly, and the perception that is being created by the forum guides that sharky appointed, is that you can sit in the sun, do very little, and make 100% a month risk free.?

Forgive me for being pedantic but, on a point of fact, Sharky didn't appoint any of the FGs - I did.
I agree with you and others that perception is reality. However, my perception and, therefore, my 'reality', is different from yours. Very different it would seem! I cannot control - and nor would I want to - how other people perceive the world. Let's follow the logic through. Suppose a member buys a product or service from another member because they 'perceive' that person as being especially knowledgeable, expert or credible etc. Their perception is based on said members' 'Legendary' status perhaps. Or that they've got 1,000's of posts to their name, or been a member for many years, or that they write clearly and authoritatively, or perhaps they have a title like FG or Moderator next to their username. In some cases they may have two or more of the above (you Zup', for example). On this basis, our innocent newbie buys whatever the vendor is selling and makes no money or, worse still, loses money. They can respond to this set back in one of two ways. They can look for someone to blame or they can take personal responsibity for their own actions. My perception of successful traders is that they don't blame others when things go wrong. It's not the fault of their broker, the markets, data provider, ISP or that of some stranger off an internet bulletin board. They take personal responsibility for their own actions. If our now not so naive newbie learns this valuable lesson from their experience with the vendor, it will stand them in good stead in the future.

Members can of course challange that perception at the risk of censorship, or being banned, or ridiculed, but sharky of course has the power to either change that perception, or to promote it, and of course that is his right. ?

T2W encourages open and rigorous debate by members on all subjects without fear of censorship, or being banned, or ridiculed, provided they comply with the site guidelines. However, that's just my perception!

However, I have to ask, if he truly believed the perception that he's actively promoting, why bother with the hasle of running a business such as T2W when for $149 he can buy an EA and make 100% a month return sitting in the sun ?

That's your perception, not mine and probably not Sharky's. Regarding the FGs, our perception is that the FGs will, we hope, assist new members and new traders to get the most out of the site and to develop their trading knowledge and skills faster than they otherwise would without their help. Only time will tell whether or not we're right.
Tim.

 

[oildaytrader]

The difference is, a mentor can give/sell a knowledge base that the student/client can trade, learn and grow from. A system seller only gives the system for the agreed cost, the person who buys the system might not know how or why it works or even if it does work.

A mentor can give/sell a knowledge base which the mentor believes works, there is no proof or evidence of the mentor's methods working on live accounts,other than the claims by the mentors.If the knowledge base was any good ,the mentors would be racking it in millions, they would be using it to trade it.The mentors relying on tuition fees for their livelihoods may not be the ideal tutors , as they may himself not be successful with his own knowledge base.The mentor's trading style may not suit the trainee.

I have every respect for mentors who provide a quality education.My view is they may not be better than the trading system sellers.There may be some exceptional mentors , but I doubt very much ,they need the hassle of tutoring.

 

[zupcon]

Suppose a member buys a product or service from another member because they 'perceive' that person as being especially knowledgeable, expert or credible etc. Their perception is based on said members' 'Legendary' status perhaps. Or that they've got 1,000's of posts to their name, or been a member for many years, or that they write clearly and authoritatively, or perhaps they have a title like FG or Moderator next to their username. In some cases they may have two or more of the above (you Zup', for example). On this basis, our innocent newbie buys whatever the vendor is selling and makes no money or, worse still, loses money. They can respond to this set back in one of two ways. They can look for someone to blame or they can take personal responsibity for their own actions. My perception of successful traders is that they don't blame others when things go wrong. It's not the fault of their broker, the markets, data provider, ISP or that of some stranger off an internet bulletin board. They take personal responsibility for their own actions. If our now not so naive newbie learns this valuable lesson from their experience with the vendor, it will stand them in good stead in the future.

You are of course 100% correct regarding personal responsibility, and about learning valuable lessons etc. The basic issue comes down to the standards that the management and shareholders of T2W wish to impose.

You cant deny, there are standards, and those standards are imposed. Mr Sharky pays staff to develop and impliment those policies and procedures. Its not a game, its a business.

I occasionally see posts advertising for viagra, fake rolex watches, ***** extensions, and offers to clean my septic tank. Those posts are removed, presumably by a moderator. On occasions I've reported posts of this nature, and recieved a friendly acknowledgement from various people at T2W for doing so.

I've occassionaly seen posts advertising systems for sale, mentoring, managed acounts etc, and I've also seen these posts removed. I've also seen members who abused the PM facility to market their wares banned. I've seen members who repeatedly continued to market holy grail type indicators banned. I've seen members who posted child pornography banned, etc etc etc

In the light of the above, my perception is that T2W imposes standards

So somewhere, either in Mr Sharky's head, or even written on piece of paper there's a fine line which distinguishes accaptable behaviour from its members and staff, from unaceptable behaviour that might possibly diminishes the integrity and reputation of the site.

Purely for educational purposes you should take a look at talkgold.com, its a forum used to promote HYIP opportunities, although I do believe that there's also a forex forum. On this particular forum, you'll see various entities promoting systems and managed fund opportunities with returns, that are not too dissimilar to those being promoted by T2W's own forum guides.

Some of these entities are bored individuals trying to make a fast buck, some of these entities are organised criminals generating hundreds of million a year in revenues from a whole host of cyber crimes.

When a forum, allows the promotion of a system which advertises returns that are not dissimilar to those promoted by high yield investment programs and ponzi schemes then in my perception at least, a line has been crossed. Experience would suggest that If such a system was to be adverstised by some scroat of a spammer, it would recieve short shrift from the moderators, and yet we have at least 2 forum guides promoting systems with HYIP / Ponzi scheme style returns.

For all I know it may well be that T2W aspires to dumb down to such an extent that its indistinguishable from a forum such as talkgold, and why not if there's a market ?

T2W has a choice to make, does it try to uphold some sort of ethical standards, or does it become a free for all where vendors mislead with promises of ever increasing returns.

 

[timsk]

Hi zup',

. . . In the light of the above, my perception is that T2W imposes standards

So somewhere, either in Mr Sharky's head, or even written on piece of paper there's a fine line which distinguishes accaptable behaviour from its members and staff, from unaceptable behaviour that might possibly diminishes the integrity and reputation of the site.

Absolutely spot on! The standards are written on some vitual paper and called the T2W Site Guidelines

. . .When a forum, allows the promotion of a system which advertises returns that are not dissimilar to those promoted by high yield investment programs and ponzi schemes then in my perception at least, a line has been crossed. Experience would suggest that If such a system was to be adverstised by some scroat of a spammer, it would recieve short shrift from the moderators, and yet we have at least 2 forum guides promoting systems with HYIP / Ponzi scheme style returns.

Okay, I think I see the problem. If a FG is promoting their product or service here on T2W in a manner that breaches site guidelines, then this would bring the FG initiative into disrepute. As I've commented earlier, the minute this happens, I don't doubt that you and others will bring it to my attention and I give you my word that I will deal with it. To repeat, the FG concerned will have their forum permissions revoked and they will be asked to stand down from the role. The point is, and I'm sure you understand and appreciate this, I can't monitor, dictate or judge what a FG does beyond the virtual walls of this forum. I have to restrict my focus to their behaviour here on T2W.

For all I know it may well be that T2W aspires to dumb down to such an extent that its indistinguishable from a forum such as talkgold, and why not if there's a market ?

Obviously this is not the case, otherwise Sharky would not have appointed Trader333 and myself and, in turn, I would not have set up the FG intitiative and appointed members to the role.

T2W has a choice to make, does it try to uphold some sort of ethical standards, or does it become a free for all where vendors mislead with promises of ever increasing returns.

The Moderators do a first class job in upholding the site's guidelines. If you feel that they are too lax and should be tightened up to promote higher 'ethical standards', I recommend you start a thread in the Feedback forum to highlight your concerns. Please be specific, saying what is absent from the existing T2W Site Guidelines AND what needs to be added to them to address the issues you're concerned about. I assure you that any ideas that are clearly in the best interests of members, have the support of members and can be implemented relatively easily - will be given the careful consideration that they deserve.

Tim.

 

[oildaytrader]

Can totally understand why guys *invent* (kinda rob off each other) these EAs and courses etc...looking over at forex factory there were hundreds awaiting the launch of some cobbled together free system at midnight last night...you'd swear it was the launch of Call of Duty. They were gutted when he didn't deliver at New Year... Whilst this 'give it to me now' mindest exists, hundreds of new vendors, peddling their wares from 100 quid websites, will continue to flourish...
When you see a reaction like this you can understand why so many vendors see opportunity, personally it makes me kinda depressed that so many are constantly searching for a quick fix... I had no idea before committing to this industry that there were so many ghost chasers out there...

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=209883&page=15

If you keep looking on forums , you may luckily find the holy grail for free.If the posters knew what they have, they would try and market it on a website.Just look for clueless posters with good systems.

If the poster does not know he has a good system, it is much more difficult for the reader to know , most readers are novices.

 

[DionysusToast]

If T2W valued quality over quantity, they would ask for verified trading account statements from anyone touting a system on the site.

Web sites don't make money from quality though...

 

[elitejets]

Thank you, and a happy and prosperous new year to you too.


The second example, and I really cant resist bringing it up, is of course the Wasp fiasco. In the case of Mr Spreadbetting, a moderator at least had the decency to try and put an end to his games by locking the thread, and although it was akin to locking the stable door after the horse had bolted, he at least tried, and at least had the integrity to comment on Mr Spreadbettings multi user shinnanagins. In this case T2W moved heaven and earth to supress information when someone shouted "foul play"

Hello Zupcon

I don't believe that the Wasp fiasco stuff was shut down because they were protecting a vendor/advisor that everyone believed to be associated with Wasp.
Perception is not reality. The thread was shut down because current members of the wasp pool were not participating at that time and the posts were speculation and could have been defamatory.

In fact the vendor (a former T2W advisor) very recently won a large court judgement against Wasp (a banned former T2W advisor).
Furthermore the banned former T2W advisor who was soliciting funds for ridiculous returns (Wasp) is now being dealt with by the FSA and the CPS, mostly thanks to the efforts of the former T2W advisor/vendor (who is a bit of a hero to his fellow victims )

Happy New Year.
Nicola