Short but sweet Ninja + Zen

[nine]

I will make one last attempt at the point.

I've already explained that the kindergarten (spreadbetters and forex bucket shops) has some disadvantages that you get in return for security. Major ones are: you pay bigger commissions (spreads), they don't provide true prices (don't get to your limit, take your stops out unnecessarily), and they will force manual intervention on you if your size gets up and you are successful in a short term method.

The final one is that you only think they're looking after you. Unlike your mum and the kindy teachers, they are not, but if you go that route you will find out sooner or later.



Worse in a trader, you seem to have that if a mistake is made "they" should pay for it attitude.

Get real.

If you pay someone $30 a month for software (or $60 a year like I paid zero line trader) then you have no right to expect them to take liabilities greater than that $30 unless you can prove some sort of gross negligence in court. Ninja (who I haven't used for year but added recently to test some ideas) did the right thing by giving you your sub back. If they did that and closed your account I'm guessing they have an extremely low opinion of you and its probably something like "this guy just doesn't get it - he is not worth the grief - god, lets just move on."


So, go back to the kindergarten. In time, if you are successful you will find problems in that environment and move towards trading environment adulthood.

To readers of the thread: lockstock's "I'm going back to mummy" approach is not the right one; instead he should be using the learning experience to grow up and move on into the big wide dangerous world.

Best Wishes to lockstock and Good Luck everyone.:smart:


Edit: for a feel of what Mummy is really like when problems start: Problems with Mum

 

[PKFFW]

Not commenting on Lockstock one way or the other. Just commenting on an issue I had recently.

I was using NT to demo trade another strat I'm working on. I only trade a single lot at a time and the last thing I do before closing my platform is hit the close all and cancel all buttons and ensure I am flat.

A couple of nights ago I did all this. My last trade was a buy order. All indications pointed to my being flat. No floatinig P/L etc. I went to bed and got up the next morning about 8 hours later and swtiched on the computer, loaded up NT and had a look. Low and behold there was an open position. It was a Short position and it was about 8 points in the red.

Looking over the charts I see where I closed my long. No where does NT give any indication that another position was opened.

I know that I did not accidently open a short position when closing my long. If that had happened this new short position would have been 13 points negative instead of 8.

Was it a glitch? DId I leave a pending sell order in the market? Who knows.

What I do know is all the phone numbers in the world would not have helped me. I was sound asleep here in Australia supposedly safe in the knowledge that I was flat with no open positions.

Kinda scary to me but what can you do hey? I spose I could ring the broker before bed each night to get a verbal confirmation that I am flat but what a pain that would be!

I'm just glad it was whilst demo trading.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[Mathemagician]

I'm just glad it was whilst demo trading.

You don't think this might have had something to do with it?

Of course, there are all kinds of reasons this could happen, esp a misconfiguration of the software (ninja has an auto-close-at-end-of-day feature that would do this, and if the strat itself tried to exit around the same time you manually exited this would happen as well).

jj

 

[PKFFW]

You don't think this might have had something to do with it?

I don't see why it being demo trading should make any difference to the software really. The software is exactly the same live or demo, you just input a different license key in order to be able to live trade. You can then choose when you open it up if you want to be demo trading or live trading.

Besides a feed issue caused by the CME once I've not had any other problems with NT, live or demo. With no other problems to compare it to, I guess I can't say for sure if it was somehow caused by using NT in the demo version rather than the live version. Will just have to wait and see if it ever happens whilst live and if so I guess it isn't due to it being demo.

Of course, there are all kinds of reasons this could happen, esp a misconfiguration of the software (ninja has an auto-close-at-end-of-day feature that would do this, and if the strat itself tried to exit around the same time you manually exited this would happen as well).

jj

It would be one heck of a co-incidence if I manually closed right at the same time NT automatically closed thereby opening a new position. I spose it is possible though.

A few things make it seem extraordinarily unlikely though.
1: Being here in Australia I close out everything and shut down NT and go to bed around 1000hrs Chicago time. So I don't think NT would be closing out positions at that time for it's usual EOD close out.
2: If I had opened a new position right at the moment NT automatically closed my other trade I would have noticed a new position open before closing down NT. That is something I check before closing it all down for the night.
3: If that had happened then the new position had to have been negative 13 points rather than negative 8 points. I know this because I can clearly see the price at which the trade before had been closed. If a new one had been opened at that time by accident it should be at the same price. A tick or two slippage maybe but certainly not 5 points worth.

I agree there are many reasons why something like this could happen. Not the least of which is that it is totally possible that I did leave a pending sell stop order in the market by accident. I don't think so but I can't prove I didn't do something, it's kind of logically impossible to do so. Therefore I must accept the possibility that I did leave such an order.

Personally I think the most likely scenario is that NT malfuntioned and entered a pending sell order right before I closed it down. The order was then hit whilst I was asleep dreaming of the millions I plan to make in the coming months and years. I didn't notice this order before I shut down NT and I have to take responsibility for that.

That's all besides the point anyway as I was demo trading and so did not lose any money(or sleep! haha) over it. I was merely sharing my experience with what appears to me to be a software malfunction in NT.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[lockstock]

Nine,

You have a tendancy to use mummy and kindergarten as analogy a trite too much for my liking and may I suggest that it says more about you as a person than it does about me or anyone else. ( Still attatched to mummies apron strings by the sound of things.)


Read,learn and inwardly digest.


First of all forget about blame or suing anyone, or culpability. I am saying there is a major software issue with Ninja and it is not fit for purpose. The lawyers can argue that one out.

As for Ninja the company - you say.

If you pay someone $30 a month for software (or $60 a year like I paid zero line trader) then you have no right to expect them to take liabilities greater than that $30 unless you can prove some sort of gross negligence in court. Ninja (who I haven't used for year but added recently to test some ideas) did the right thing by giving you your sub back. If they did that and closed your account I'm guessing they have an extremely low opinion of you and its probably something like "this guy just doesn't get it - he is not worth the grief - god, lets just move on."


Ninja haven't done anything, not addressed the problem, not analysed the log, just banned me and reimbursed me. Is that what you would expect?

The car analogy, you are driving on the motorway in a new car and your bonnet suddendly comes up, it's shocked the hell out of you, you are staring at a black wall, but you manage to make it to the hard shoulder. You know the catch was down, and that it had a service just two days previous. You ring the garage that sold you it. They don't want to know but give you your money back. Would you still drive that car?


At the very least I would have expected that Ninja would have to a) apologised, and b) analyse the log- If not, what is the log there in the first place for?


PKFFW has the nail on the head. If you bother to look at the logs that is ALMOSTexactly what happened to me, and there but for the grace of god... fortunately I had the good fortune to notice that the PnL was still moving, unfotrunately I didn't manage the incident the best I could have. Now that is the learning curve! I am used to using CMC and you can get direct to the dealing desk through their software.


Now that someone else has stepped forward and iterated the same, in my opinion, this is the type of place, to warn others. Like someone else points out, the odds are stacked against us, we as a band of traders should vote with our feet, or at least be able to make an informed decision.

What better way than being able to learn from other people's mistakes and misfortune,I know if I came on here as a rookie and read this thread,to me it would be worth more than a 100 positive trades.




To get back to Ninja and Nines assertion that by me wanting to have the log analysed and be given to some sort of answers to questions I am now not going to get answers to. Then expecting me or anyone else for that matter to go ahead and use their software in the future is plainly immature in itself. As I said in a previous post, if the car brakes failed you would want to know why, and in Ninja's case to just wash their hands of the incident and not to invstigate it in the slightest is a reflection on how bad this company is.


Now if you want to contribute to this thread, by all means do, but don't have your own set adgenda. The issue has moved on, to how Ninja handled the situation and whether there is a major software issue that others should be aware of.

The logs clearly showed that I CLOSED to go flat, I then opened 1 short and then tried to close it for a profit. Not once, but 7 times. We have established that the way I handled it was wrong and Mathemagicain came up with a 7 or 8 plan on how you react to such a situation.

As a neutral or rookie using this thread I would not go anywhere near Ninja, the odds are stacked against you from the get go, you need reliable software that you can trust, yes we all know glitches can happen. But not of this magintiude, irrespective whether the system is free, $10 or a $ 1000 a month, it has to be fit for purpose of use, and this at the moment clearly isn't.

 

[lockstock]

Last night, I down loaded Strategy Runner.

In the blurb you have to read and say yes to. Get out clauses and disclaimers.

One of the things it said that you had to agree to , before pressing NEXT was :-

In essence-

You had to accept that the company had the right to swithch off all or any part of the software at any time, with out prior warning at their discretion.

Now I have been wondering if Ninja are able to, at will, to do the same; turn parts of the software on and off ?

I traded the Demo for about 3 weeks and never had this problem occur.


Just a long shot!

 

[nine]

Ok. I'll forget the analogy as it doesn't seem to have helped you. Irritated you more than anything.

Simple version: IMO you are still trying to blame others for your lack of competence instead of moving past it and getting on with learning from your experiences. I assume you are still taking the "its all too dangerous, "I am back to the bucket shops in the future"" approach. If that's true then you still haven't learnt the right lesson.

The reality is that whatever software you use, companies you use, or people you work with, there will be problems. Some people get stuck in the problem but others recognize that problems are part of the environment we operate in and an opportunity for growth. You will find a different set of problems with the bucket shops should you stay in that environment long enough.


It seems you want to define the thread's topic as "Ninja is bad; would anyone else like to join me in that view." Get stuck into Ninja if that makes you feel better because you will need to get past it to ever succeed in this game.

Good Luck.

 

[lockstock]

You are obviously on this thread for a wind up, I have stated on numerous occasions that there were mistakes made on my behalf.

Do you happen to have a vested interest in Ninja, because as a neutral I would definitely think you have?

Funny how you cherry pick off cuff remarks to support your banal arguement.

Yes, in one of my first posts I did say back to bucket shops for me.

But I also posted in my last post that I had down loaded strategy runner, which is akin to Ninja Trader in appearance and application.

Ok. I'll forget the analogy as it doesn't seem to have helped you. Irritated you more than anything.

Far from it, just made me wonder if you were on the list!!


You seem to suffer from tunnel vision, or selctive memory syndrome.

I stated on numerous occasions that there were mistakes by me and that Mathemagicains 8 points were invaluable, as far as I am concerned that part of debate is closed, yes I and a guess a lot of others have learnt valuable lessons.

Can you comprehend the above paragraph?


But that doesn't negate my view on what has happened with Ninja, and it doesn't take away your spin on what happened with them either.

As far as I can understand, you are saying in nutshell, don't mention it again, it is one of those things that happen, move on.


I am saying, wait a minute, at the very least! if they- Ninja- had treat me in a decent manner and investigated it, held their hands up and admitted there was a problem and come back to me in a professional way and reimbursed me part or the whole of the 3 months subscription for thier mess up. I would have had a wholly different view.

I cannot see where you have a problem in me wanting answers to the above, unless you have a hidden adgenda.


Yes, under the circumstances explained by me and the antipodean user of Ninja, there are clearly problems that need addressing, but you seem to think otherwise.You seem to be saying-accept these glitches and move on.

Move on to what exactly? The night when you close down your system flat and then wake up the next morning to find your account wiped out!

 

[nine]

I don't think attempting to answer that point by point will make you any happier. Nor will it help you significantly.

As I said at the end of my last post, "get stuck into Ninja if that makes you feel better."




Disclaimer: This post is my own personal view and does not necessarily represent those of the management of T2W.

 

[lockstock]

Let us take this issue to one by one. ( as you seem to have a problem with memory retention)

Our antipodean friend.

You are saying that it is no ones fautlt and that it's a simple matter of life. C'est la vie.

Just delve into your inifinite font of knowledge and share your years of wisdom with everyone.

Let's suppose that the was a terrible tragedy somewhere in the world and the markets move drastically against him, not only is he wiped out in a positon that he had closed but he loses everything he owns, penniless and potless. Ninja don't want to know when he contacts them the following morning, and not only that they wipe his complaint from their help forum and reimburse him his subscription.

What is he going to learn from this?

 

[nine]

So we have to do a point by point. Hmmm.


No problem with memory retention. But memory retention isn't required anyway, just the ability to read.

I'm not your friend; I have yet to form a high enough opinion of you to consider including you in that category.

No. That is your interpretation. The fault is yours. Take them to court if you believe otherwise.

Sorry but I don't do infinite knowledge or wisdom.

A position that he thought he closed - is that different to a position that definitely seemed to be open and he hadn't taken all reasonable measures that a competent trader would have taken to close?

If he wasn't open to learning - nothing.



Which brings me back to my last response, probably having now proved the first part of it:

I don't think attempting to answer that point by point will make you any happier. Nor will it help you significantly.

As I said at the end of my last post, "get stuck into Ninja if that makes you feel better."

Good luck.



Disclaimer: This post is my own personal view and does not necessarily represent those of the management of T2W.

 

[black bear]

You Are Responsible

seems like a total waste of time to get with all this, and its..........

Your time

Your not happy with something = do not use it.

I would not use anything and I suspect nine or the vast majority of other traders would not use a provider or platform they found to be unreliable and where doubt and most imporantly your confidence was no longer present.

I have the same issue with Sb firms, others find them fine and have no problems, at the end of the day its down to you and you alone

Best just dusting your feet off and moving on imho = lesson learnt

I have found IQ trader very good and reliable (couple of minor issues in 5 months) all resolved by broker / tek staff ASAP, Not tried the very advanced features due to..skill level nothing is perfect

An earlier poster posted ~

YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE if you do not see that simple truth your storing up trouble for yourself imho anyway.

Thanks for the warning regards what I understand is a popular platform / option, I notice no one as posted in its defence yet have they, or have I missed it :whistling :?:

Good luck and all the best in the future, do yourself a favour and move on :clover:

Have a good weekend all, Sunny here

Latter

 

[lockstock]

Oh dear,

The ability for you to be able to read doesn't automatically qualify you for a cognitive thought processyou clearly have problems understanding the message that is being conveyed.

Antipodean friend = PKFFW (Sydney- antipodean is a person residing at the other side of the globe) ( you definitely seem to have trouble in following anything but the simplest of posts)

As for the friends I choose, a man that posts repeatedly about kindergarten and mummy I would tend not to associate with, on the contrary , I would be reporting him to the appropiate authorities.

You have an amazing knack of not answering the questions put to you, even when they are put in the simplest of forms.


I'll ask you again, share with us your limited wisdom and tell us what he could learn from the more than likely scenario that is set out in my post above.

As for the, not taking all reasonable steps to close the position, well I took most, but I have said repeatedly, that I accept that I should have done things differently. ( Once again, which part of that statement don't you understand?)

You fail to address the issue of Ninja washing their hands of , what I consider to be a major issue, immediately. Not only that you bring to the table a concocted version of events to suit your theory.

Are you saying that when something like this happens they should just say tough sh!t and reimburse any money that has been paid to them? If you are, and that is what you appear to be saying- then I find your statement incredulous.


I am not in a search for hapiness, I have it in abundance, it's the greatest gift that I possess, this issue is not about money. It is about a company that should have some that should have some sort of policey for events such as this nature. Accepted electronic trading has inherent dangers and is a major risk, but for a company not to turn around and say " lets have a look at these logs" is fool hardy , for it sure is not going to be an isolated incident. and is probably the worst publicity you could wish for.


Irrespective of what has happened hear, if I was an outsider looking in at this thread, I would be thinking twice about using Ninja to trade with.


Just as when you own a make of car that appears on Watchdog, such as the bonnet catch analogy, you start to drive down the road with extra caution or you do something better than that, you stop using it until the problem is identified and fixed. Or the company in question stop hiding their heads in sand and saying la la la la la la la ( a language that you will probably understand much clearer than the rest of these posts)and actually adressing the problem and having a major recall.
I think it's called - erm wait a minute, let me think: Ah, yes- Customer Services.

 

[fifty2aces]

Lockstock - if you really feel that you're in the right, take Ninjatrader to court, but judging by the Terms of Service, I'd say you have no chance whatsoever.

Let's suppose that the was a terrible tragedy somewhere in the world and the markets move drastically against him, not only is he wiped out in a positon that he had closed but he loses everything he owns, penniless and potless. Ninja don't want to know when he contacts them the following morning, and not only that they wipe his complaint from their help forum and reimburse him his subscription.

My understanding is that Zenfire feeds realtime PnL back to Ninjatrader, so the lesson is to doublecheck when closing a position that you are actually flat - if PnL is still going, clearly you aren't.

 

[jayjay121]

am i missing something here?..............ninja is by far the best software out there right now, and i can't believe how cheap it is to be honest, with the zen fire data feed, nothing is faster including x trader which is like 700 a month. The updates keep improving it to, i love the dom, can't belive u guys are not happy with ninja.........its the best by far and ive used meta trader, e signal. tradestation, x trader.............the simulator is the most realistic and really helped me out, the most realistic fills too.

 

[lockstock]

Fifty 2 aces

Lockstock - if you really feel that you're in the right, take Ninjatrader to court, but judging by the Terms of Service, I'd say you have no chance whatsoever.

Right about what?

 

[lockstock]

Let me hazard a guess what you are refering to.

Yes, I am right that I expect some sort of explanation from them

Yes, I am right to warn other traders the possible problems that could happen with Ninja T

Yes, I understand that mistake were made and I should have mitigated my losses then argued the point.

The above point, even the Principal at Mirus said if you had done that we would have been able to help you.

As for the poster who said that he hasn't had a problem with NT , that is all well and good, I have and I feel I should make that clear to other users, PKFFW had a potentially life changing problem and not for the better.

 

[nine]

Right about what?

You still don't get it. C'est la vie.


Good night Englishmen, I hope your Saturday is as much fun as mine was. And good luck next week. :clover:

 

[lockstock]

You still don't get it. C'est la vie.


Good night Englishmen, I hope your Saturday is as much fun as mine was. And good luck next week. :clover:

I am away on the Norfolk Broads now, and I am judging by your last comment, you were on wind up.

Still don't get what? Your're all spout and no substance!!

Anyway, I am out on this baby for the next day or two. But beware I do have internet connection on it.

BEWARE! NINJA TRADERHAS A SEROUS FLAW IN IT

 

[Mathemagician]

Well, for a bit of balance, I've been using ninja for a few years now and have moved a lot of contracts through it. To date, I've been able to track down the source of every one of the handful of apparent "software glitches" that have appeared and it's invariably been something I've done. YMMV.

jj