Whether I personally trade with a million quid account or not at all isn't relevant to the points raised, so your post doesn't really contribute much to the thread.
Whether I personally trade with a million quid account or not at all isn't relevant to the points raised, so your post doesn't really contribute much to the thread.
ADB - (like the banksy avatar
) at the moment i can't answer that, that's the problem. :-0 i'm not questioning the vailidity of Prospreads underlying market price in comparison to other vendors.
My concern is replicating a method of trading that i have devised based on TA and pivots with the same success i have had for the past 14 months on demo simultaneously with 2 different vendors. I have my TP'S nad SL's down to the pip (slippage occurs rarely) and based on a 2 pip spread fixed.If all lines up and my pivot level/s hit i enter the market in a given direction ..that's it.
My entries in the main will be limits or stop orders, so how on Propsreads (or any commission based DMA supplier can i preempt the underlying market spread as and when price hits my entry points or exits for that matter?
i'd just like to replicate my trading in "liveland" and take the market on with the same parameters, without some b***ard nobling you if your account grows. i was hoping Prospreads would at least eliminate this part.
i am reluctant to go the ECN as i dont a: simply have funds for the big boys (true ECN)
or b: want to be taxed on my returns if not required. (plus i read somehwere that once you trade openly via ECN and been taxed that any subsequent SB'ing is liable to tax..how true this is i don't know).
As i say, i havent used DMA in finance, nor am i a guru in order book flow or DOM etc..
(i am familiar with ladder based executional s/w on betting exchanges with DOM so the model is not completely alien to me)
with regards to the lot sizes/multiples etc, that's something else i need to get my head around
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A Dashing Blade
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Ahhh, I see
The quotes you see on the PS platform are the underlying market quotes NOT market quotes + their spread.
Any help?
ADB - no lol !
well yes.. i understand the market they show reflects the real unadulterated market that the big boys see through ECN (which is generally 1 pip spread) for which you have to pay 0.5 each way to enter the Prospreads club and play, whereas normal bucketshops data reflects the market they make or price up...i understand this.
what i dont understand is how i best replicate what i'm doing going forward in to a live environment in the SB world. i'm assuming Prospreads is the way for true price and no shenanignas (we hope anyway, though some hedging occurs by the sounds)....it's the normal bucketshop shenanigans i want away from.. today is a prime example.. if i were live and had a fixed stop in place, which i do always use if not at the screen i would have been banged out absolutely NO DOUBT even though price danced around 1.5 pips from my SL. i manually caressed the trigger and waited and price turned for the better. as it stands i'm still in the trade. sounds paranoid but i don't trust em...
i guess im asking - with Prospreads will i be better off?
the data is "cleaner" ?
and rent wise ie: the commiss/spread to play the game as opposed to a bucketshop SB fixed spread i'll be no worse off? the spread's that tight that a smaller move to the plus side pips wise will pay for the commish as would a +2 move in the SB bucketshop?
but, how often does the Prospreads underlying market spread tend to fluctaute away from 1 pip? and what's the root cause (i'm guessing supply and demand)? is there a counter to this?
sorry for pickin ya brains..
p.s where you work in the city?. i was there for a few years slaving for a IT trading vendor/data supplier.
well yes.. i understand the market they show reflects the real unadulterated market that the big boys see through ECN (which is generally 1 pip spread) for which you have to pay 0.5 each way to enter the Prospreads club and play, whereas normal bucketshops data reflects the market they make or price up...i understand this.
what i dont understand is how i best replicate what i'm doing going forward in to a live environment in the SB world. i'm assuming Prospreads is the way for true price and no shenanignas (we hope anyway, though some hedging occurs by the sounds)....it's the normal bucketshop shenanigans i want away from.. today is a prime example.. if i were live and had a fixed stop in place, which i do always use if not at the screen i would have been banged out absolutely NO DOUBT even though price danced around 1.5 pips from my SL. i manually caressed the trigger and waited and price turned for the better. as it stands i'm still in the trade. sounds paranoid but i don't trust em...
i guess im asking - with Prospreads will i be better off?
the data is "cleaner" ?
and rent wise ie: the commiss/spread to play the game as opposed to a bucketshop SB fixed spread i'll be no worse off? the spread's that tight that a smaller move to the plus side pips wise will pay for the commish as would a +2 move in the SB bucketshop?
but, how often does the Prospreads underlying market spread tend to fluctaute away from 1 pip? and what's the root cause (i'm guessing supply and demand)? is there a counter to this?
sorry for pickin ya brains..
p.s where you work in the city?. i was there for a few years slaving for a IT trading vendor/data supplier.
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1. If you believe ordinary SB play around then, yes, clearly you will be better off with prospreads.
2. If you believe your months of demo has shown very little slippage (as you mentioned) and limit trades will work the same, you're in for a shock when trading live.
trust me i'm under no illusion that the true market is not a perfect science as much as i'm trying to make it...
but there's a big difference between the true market knicking your bucks when you're wrong opposed to some snivveling greedy office bod knicking it by manipulating spreads and SL's.
isn't there also evidence though that slippage could actually work in your favour on occasions?... one would hope that in the long run it may not prove to be that extortionate..i'm only placing 1- 2 trades a day.
though i'm sure you have more experience in this are than i and appreciate your thoughts.
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OK, but I don't even understand why you mentioned slippage on demo.
My point is, if your system is so finely honed with your limit bets that you're wondering about the difference between PS and ordinary SB cost, then you'd be better off worrying about the difference between your demo and live, since that will have a far greater effect on your productivity.
true and i'll take that on board... i'm aware demo fills air on the side of synthetic..
but an honest broker and honest feed is a priority as a starting point (for me anyways).. the rest needs to be taken care of agreed, but i can learn to deal with that once i know i have a level playing field.
it's looking as though PS is an obvious contender, which is why i'm on the thread to find out more i guess..
Truth Seeker
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I think PS have lost out on so many savvy customers because of this high equity/professional status on their application form. Who cares about fast execution if they can do a runner with all your money, and there's a high chance we could get TAXED!!!
They should offer DMA to retail clients, or create their own market exactly based on the real market feed with no shady tricks, thus not needing any high equity/professional trader status, and for their clients money to be protected under FSA compansation scheme.
So lets look at the facts here so far:
Prospreads are offering currently;
1: Based abroad
2: Our money is not protected
3: Horrible cheap feeling complicated platform
4: Only go for high net worth individuals (iffy)
5: You have to class yourself as 'Professional' so CAN be liable for income tax and waive any compensation rights
I smell a Rat. Let me explain, maybe I have it wrong. I deposit £10k, I trade it up to £50k, Prospreads shut up shop and disappear, i have no rights to get any money back, and meanwhile I get a tax bill to pay from inland revenue. Think about the traders who hold £100k+ in their accounts..
Or do I open a real futures account, my money is protected, I pay less commision, I know 100% I'm trading the real market, and I get to choose what platform to use (Ninja etc). I pay tax, but also get to work it against my losses.
Why so many grey areas with this company, you really need to ask yourself this, we need clarity, not to be told to find out ourselves?! Do you want clients or not? You do the research as you want OUR money!! A very pompous response I have to say. Would you buy a second hand car from Pro Spreads?
Rule number 1 with trading.....Protect your Trading Pot!!
They should offer DMA to retail clients, or create their own market exactly based on the real market feed with no shady tricks, thus not needing any high equity/professional trader status, and for their clients money to be protected under FSA compansation scheme.
So lets look at the facts here so far:
Prospreads are offering currently;
1: Based abroad
2: Our money is not protected
3: Horrible cheap feeling complicated platform
4: Only go for high net worth individuals (iffy)
5: You have to class yourself as 'Professional' so CAN be liable for income tax and waive any compensation rights
I smell a Rat. Let me explain, maybe I have it wrong. I deposit £10k, I trade it up to £50k, Prospreads shut up shop and disappear, i have no rights to get any money back, and meanwhile I get a tax bill to pay from inland revenue. Think about the traders who hold £100k+ in their accounts..
Or do I open a real futures account, my money is protected, I pay less commision, I know 100% I'm trading the real market, and I get to choose what platform to use (Ninja etc). I pay tax, but also get to work it against my losses.
Why so many grey areas with this company, you really need to ask yourself this, we need clarity, not to be told to find out ourselves?! Do you want clients or not? You do the research as you want OUR money!! A very pompous response I have to say. Would you buy a second hand car from Pro Spreads?
Rule number 1 with trading.....Protect your Trading Pot!!
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rawrschach
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How do you know there's a high chance of being taxed? There is such a thing as a professional gambler.
In order to be taxed either the law on spreadbetting will need to change or someone at a regulator needs to understand that this kind of thing is really dma set up to look like spreadbetting. Which is unlikely given the general stupidity of regulators.
In order to be taxed either the law on spreadbetting will need to change or someone at a regulator needs to understand that this kind of thing is really dma set up to look like spreadbetting. Which is unlikely given the general stupidity of regulators.
Truth Seeker.
You have obviously not done you homework properly on Prospreads as I did before opening an account.
Prospreads are offering currently;
1: Based abroad - As has been said before this is for tax efficiency and doing reasearch I see that Gibraltar also houses - Partygaming,Bet365,Stan James, Victor Chandler,Ladbrokes,Mansion and i am sure there are more dodggy companies!
2: Our money is not protected - All client funds are segregated at Barclays in London, so the compansation schemes would only matter if Barclays go under.
3: Horrible cheap feeling complicated platform - Takes some getting used to be the functionality is far superior to other SB platforms. 4: Only go for high net worth individuals (iffy)- As it has been said before on here, they only have a professional licence under Mifid.5: You have to class yourself as 'Professional' so CAN be liable for income tax and waive any compensation rights - answered by rawschach.[/B
]Also they are fully owned by London Capital Group.
The other thing unlike other SB's on here is that there don't seem to be any complains from clients using them only from non-users (or maybe other SB's?).
If fact the only user who come on here defend them, myself included.
It does appear that you have a grudge against PS:?:
You have obviously not done you homework properly on Prospreads as I did before opening an account.
Prospreads are offering currently;
1: Based abroad - As has been said before this is for tax efficiency and doing reasearch I see that Gibraltar also houses - Partygaming,Bet365,Stan James, Victor Chandler,Ladbrokes,Mansion and i am sure there are more dodggy companies!
2: Our money is not protected - All client funds are segregated at Barclays in London, so the compansation schemes would only matter if Barclays go under.
3: Horrible cheap feeling complicated platform - Takes some getting used to be the functionality is far superior to other SB platforms. 4: Only go for high net worth individuals (iffy)- As it has been said before on here, they only have a professional licence under Mifid.5: You have to class yourself as 'Professional' so CAN be liable for income tax and waive any compensation rights - answered by rawschach.[/B
]Also they are fully owned by London Capital Group.
The other thing unlike other SB's on here is that there don't seem to be any complains from clients using them only from non-users (or maybe other SB's?).
If fact the only user who come on here defend them, myself included.
It does appear that you have a grudge against PS:?:
Truth Seeker
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No grudge here, just what I see/experienced. So I take it you have over 500k equity and are a professional trader? If so, what are you doing wasting your time on a free bb? Most of us here have no-where near 500k clear equity, so I wonder, how many false claims have been made to let the application request go through, and where would one stand if they were found out?
PS platform is awful btw, couldn't get on with it, not everyone trades 'off the dome', some like it as easy as possible like most spread bet company platforms nowdays.
So you are stating our money is safe up to 50k with Prospreads then?
London Capital Group shares have been diving for 3 years, so that doesn't make me feel better, but if our money up to 50k is safe and will 100% be retuned to us, I will over look the fact of the share price plunge, for the immediate future but will still keep an eye on it.
Truth Seeker
I wish I did have 500k. Under MIFID you do not have to have 500k. If you have then you don't need to have the trading experience required. (ie if you have bundles then they will let you loose it) I qualified as a "Mifid" professional as I have 12 mths financial experience and trade the minimum amount of trades needed and understand the associated risks. So I have no false claims to worry about.
My understanding is that all my funds are safe if PS/LCg go under as they are segregated at Barclays. If Barclays go under then I would be entitled upto £50k which would easly cover my funds.
Truth Seeker
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Riogordo
Try and complete their on-line application form, it will not let you continue unless you agree you have over £500k, it simply rejects you, to continue you have to state by agreeing you hold over £500k free equity. Show me a way around this and I will happy to throw a couple of £K in and test it live then report back here with my findings.
I'm only looking out for myself and other traders, as my experience, Brokers are the last people who look us.
good to hear a big boy like Barclays are inolved in securing the loot.
will look to apply for the demo of PS when the time is right....
from the looks the front end seems to be based on excel esque format.... is this correct?
in the meantime could someone using prospreads give a little insight in to how they use the ladder feature or DMA in general and DOM to their advantage (without giving away any edge they have of course)? would seeeing sizeable orders lined up at certain levels confirm/affirm potential levels for entry or exit?
also i used to notice on betting exhange s/w ladders that spoof money would enter the market to manipulate price and then dissappear pronto once the job is done.. does this happen on DMA much? i imagine it has to be a sizeable lump/insitituion to move it?
edit: didnt see the last comment from truth seeker before posting. the 500k maybe a slight issue for me lol!
will look to apply for the demo of PS when the time is right....
from the looks the front end seems to be based on excel esque format.... is this correct?
in the meantime could someone using prospreads give a little insight in to how they use the ladder feature or DMA in general and DOM to their advantage (without giving away any edge they have of course)? would seeeing sizeable orders lined up at certain levels confirm/affirm potential levels for entry or exit?
also i used to notice on betting exhange s/w ladders that spoof money would enter the market to manipulate price and then dissappear pronto once the job is done.. does this happen on DMA much? i imagine it has to be a sizeable lump/insitituion to move it?
edit: didnt see the last comment from truth seeker before posting. the 500k maybe a slight issue for me lol!
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Truth Seeker
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I want to hear from Pro Spreads themselves in writing that our money held through them is 100% safe and that we are legally entitled to get £50k back (if we hold £50k or over) if their company or LCG went in to liquidation, or Pro Spreads decided one day to disappear.
brasil2000
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If you don't like the product Prospreads is offering,DON'T USE THEM:idea:
The reason I'm on this thread is because I'm considering the relative merits and demerits of Prospreads and Interactive Brokers. Of course there are several considerations, but the ones I've come to focus on are:
1) PS - basically what is their model? It's not just that ordinary SB companies take the other side to their clients, it's that they use underhand means to screw clients out of sustained winnings. They can do this because they make their own market. But they don't do it because they make their own market - a company could in principle make its own market and be honest. Just nobody's heard of an honest ordinary-SB firm, because basically they're bookies and if clients chuck their money away they try to encourage them to chuck more away, in their direction. In fact they're worse than high-street bookies because a high-street bookie's vig is about 11% whatever happens - and once they've taken it, the rest of the money that's bet goes to the winners. (OK this is a massive over-simplification, but in principle a high-street bookie wants to be flat on all outcomes)
So - what I really want to know is when do Prospreads hedge (fully and automatically, in relation to a specific order they've received from a client, and as soon as they can), and when don't they? Hopefully they will reply publicly. This is where I'm hoping they distinguish themselves from ordinary-SB firms, not just in the fact that the prices they quote are real market prices, which keeps getting trotted out but doesn't give the whole picture.
2) Interactive Brokers - I haven't looked at them so closely yet, but their customer service seems dire (just going by pre-sale experience here) compared to PS's. I've told them how much I'd be putting up, i.e. low-to-mid 5 figures (GBP) to start with, and they haven't even bothered replying to my emails. Various websites say how **** their CS is.
But is that particularly bad? Does it just come from them aiming at bigger clients, and if smaller clients get the same functionality (if not the attention and courtesy) of bigger clients, well that at least seems to be a good thing.
Lastly - Riogordo - isn't it 85K if Barclays go under, or do client a/cs come under different riles from personal a/cs?
1) PS - basically what is their model? It's not just that ordinary SB companies take the other side to their clients, it's that they use underhand means to screw clients out of sustained winnings. They can do this because they make their own market. But they don't do it because they make their own market - a company could in principle make its own market and be honest. Just nobody's heard of an honest ordinary-SB firm, because basically they're bookies and if clients chuck their money away they try to encourage them to chuck more away, in their direction. In fact they're worse than high-street bookies because a high-street bookie's vig is about 11% whatever happens - and once they've taken it, the rest of the money that's bet goes to the winners. (OK this is a massive over-simplification
, but in principle a high-street bookie wants to be flat on all outcomes)So - what I really want to know is when do Prospreads hedge (fully and automatically, in relation to a specific order they've received from a client, and as soon as they can), and when don't they? Hopefully they will reply publicly. This is where I'm hoping they distinguish themselves from ordinary-SB firms, not just in the fact that the prices they quote are real market prices, which keeps getting trotted out but doesn't give the whole picture.
2) Interactive Brokers - I haven't looked at them so closely yet, but their customer service seems dire (just going by pre-sale experience here) compared to PS's. I've told them how much I'd be putting up, i.e. low-to-mid 5 figures (GBP) to start with, and they haven't even bothered replying to my emails. Various websites say how **** their CS is.
But is that particularly bad? Does it just come from them aiming at bigger clients, and if smaller clients get the same functionality (if not the attention and courtesy) of bigger clients, well that at least seems to be a good thing.
Lastly - Riogordo - isn't it 85K if Barclays go under, or do client a/cs come under different riles from personal a/cs?
The reason I'm on this thread is because I'm considering the relative merits and demerits of Prospreads and Interactive Brokers. Of course there are several considerations, but the ones I've come to focus on are:
1) PS - basically what is their model? It's not just that ordinary SB companies take the other side to their clients, it's that they use underhand means to screw clients out of sustained winnings. They can do this because they make their own market. But they don't do it because they make their own market - a company could in principle make its own market and be honest. Just nobody's heard of an honest ordinary-SB firm, because basically they're bookies and if clients chuck their money away they try to encourage them to chuck more away, in their direction. In fact they're worse than high-street bookies because a high-street bookie's vig is about 11% whatever happens - and once they've taken it, the rest of the money that's bet goes to the winners. (OK this is a massive over-simplification
So - what I really want to know is when do Prospreads hedge (fully and automatically, in relation to a specific order they've received from a client, and as soon as they can), and when don't they? Hopefully they will reply publicly. This is where I'm hoping they distinguish themselves from ordinary-SB firms, not just in the fact that the prices they quote are real market prices, which keeps getting trotted out but doesn't give the whole picture.
2) Interactive Brokers - I haven't looked at them so closely yet, but their customer service seems dire (just going by pre-sale experience here) compared to PS's. I've told them how much I'd be putting up, i.e. low-to-mid 5 figures (GBP) to start with, and they haven't even bothered replying to my emails. Various websites say how **** their CS is.
But is that particularly bad? Does it just come from them aiming at bigger clients, and if smaller clients get the same functionality (if not the attention and courtesy) of bigger clients, well that at least seems to be a good thing.
Lastly - Riogordo - isn't it 85K if Barclays go under, or do client a/cs come under different riles from personal a/cs?
I think PS lost their credibility when they said they may choose not to hedge all positions. If it's not an automatic process, why do clients have to trade in lot sizes, for a start?
And when did they decide they required clients to have £500k of assets? Is this just a MiFID rule for 'professional' status?
Shaun12uk
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I agree completely as there are some conflicting arguments that they put forward such as must trade full contract size but not all customer bets are hedged.
Must be classed as a Pro as per the euro wide Mifid well if that is the the case why does no other firm Sb or otherwise insist upon this stance with Clients. I cannot understand how this applies to a Gibraltar gaming license that the firm has!
I may sound a bit anti prospreads but actually I am not and will consider using them if they can clarify these issues and safety of client funds which is what Ross spur also has concerns about.
Must be classed as a Pro as per the euro wide Mifid well if that is the the case why does no other firm Sb or otherwise insist upon this stance with Clients. I cannot understand how this applies to a Gibraltar gaming license that the firm has!
I may sound a bit anti prospreads but actually I am not and will consider using them if they can clarify these issues and safety of client funds which is what Ross spur also has concerns about.