I'm a masochist & it's hurting my trading :(

[Masquerade]

Yes, I decided to flog the horse some more. Someone needs to talk some sense to you.

Do YOU know what your trading strategy is? Your pathetic comments about the euro and it's immenent collapse are juvanile at best. It is laughable that you would consider such information in your approach. You have no edge there whatsoever, at all, in the slightest. You like to include it as you think it gives your positions some credence, when in fact they have none.

"wooosshhhhh!!" is the sound of the point as it breezes above your head. Do you think that the point of that video is "stay awake more"? Do you think that my objection to the video is that improvement improves if you sleep well? The sleeping reference in that video is token at best. The illusion it creates is that success in the markets is something you can achieve if you keep on trying. I am sorry, but this is not the case.

I refer not only to the money, but the opportunity costs and emotional attachment, and the corner that you have backed yourself in to. Trading is not like the 110m hurdles. Success is not guaranteed because there is no finish line.

Believe it or not, I do mean well, and there is too much wishy-washy bullsh!t here about how you can make it if you reach for the skies. You and trading are a square peg and a round hole.

** I obviously never met you in real life, but your posts speak volumes.

It's good of you to take the time out of your busy schedule.

Yes, I know what my trading strategy is and my fundamental analysis is not "euro's going to collapse hence i'm going to sell". Quite frankly, I don't really care what happens with Greece/Spain/Portugal/Ireland and anything else which crops up down the line, Euro-bonds, the ECB, growth rates and all of the other potential economic factors which may or may not happen somewhere down the line. My trades are short term and last anything from a few minutes to a few hours. so as long as I have my finger on the pulse and know what's going on for the period of time when I am exposed/considering exposing myself to risk it doesn't really matter what happens 10 weeks from now.

I'm aware the video is about grinding. Sticking with things in the face of adversity and to not be content when things are going well. I agree some people won't achieve the success, but I think I have the tools to do so.

You have to remember, this is a trading forum. There's a lot of rubbish posted here and nay-sayers. I see it so often, people who spend their time telling people that they can't trade and won't have success. Do they not get why people come here and take an interest in trading?!? Just because a person has not achieved their goals they take it as some ego hit and figure "if I can't do it, well no-one else can." So while you may mean well, just because someone says to me "don't trade" i'm not going to listen. If they say to me "I know you want to trade and here's some ways you can improve" then i'm more than happy to take heed and look at things differently.

Remember that you only see the picture which the artist wishes to paint.

 

[Masquerade]

You gambled and lost. Gambling some more will just lose all you have got. You could end up on the streets if you are not careful. It's cheaper if you just sit there and don't do anything: don't gamble and don't get a job.

I just have to comment on this. I've seen you post around on T2W a lot lately, criticising others, looking down on people and speaking as some kind of trading authority and trying to show others up to be fake.

Yet you joined in June of this year and even acknowledged that you were "very green" in relation to trading and first thread you made was about trading with no stops and averaging yet you decided to come here and have a go. I hope you realise the irony of the things you're posting around on T2W. Your time would be better spent trying to get whatever scraps of useful information you can on here and try to weed out the good from the bad and get in touch with people who trade sums of money you can only dream of.

Ending up on the streets is not something i'm concerned about. There is far worse that can happen in life (& I have done voluntary work in soup kitchens so have spoken with people who live in "poverty".) The bottom line is you can't go through life worrying about failure because then you'll never take a risk to try and be a success, only ever being mediocre & average in life. You don't have to go risk the house, but don't be afraid to take a risk because it might fail.

 

[Masquerade]

I think (but don't know for sure) that some people will never be able to trade profitably. Not because it is impossible, but because they either don't recognise what they need to do, or are unwilling to make the changes to themselves. All personalities in theory 'could' eventually be able to trade if taught properly. But that's theory. Denial will prevent you making these changes.

If you believe Masq is one of those who will never make it, then if you're right, saying that to him isn't going to work, because he'll not recognise it, and he'll carry on in denial. And if you're wrong, it's only going to hurt his confidence and give him doubts in his trading which isn't helpful either. So I don't see the point in going down that route.

I believe that if you want to succeed, then you really need to commit to something and see if it can work. Looking for a job for 3 days, in these times, is really not even trying. Now I'm not saying have all your eggs in one basket (I don't), but there should be a priority commitment. If that's poker, then so be it. Do it properly. Put in the hours and do it. For months, not a few days. No excuses. If you want a job, then do the same. Constantly flitting between life options has about the same success as constantly changing your trading strategy because you have one loser.

Thanks for the post, I found it to be very balanced. Trading success is based on personality/emotions unless you can automate it. Some people will always struggle to keep their personality/emotions out of it and admittedly at different times they have got the better of me. I have taken steps to be more aware of this and to stop myself getting into such positions.

As I said earlier and you rightly mentioned. If I decide to trade then it's my decision and i'll be damn stupid if I let a stranger who i've never met tell me what to do with my money and life. So it is a pointless angle of attack. The only good thing is should things go wrong and I post about it then they can do a "haha, I told you so!" post and feel smug that someone tried to do something and it didn't work out to plan. But that's really their own personal issues if they take joy out of one's failures. My confidence won't get knocked though because without reason, there's only a few opinions on here I will respect. A lot of negativity is around on this forum and it's to be expected that at some point in time i'll be on the end of receiving it.

I do need to commit to something and stick with it. The last few months I was fully committed to trading. I have taken a break and i'm in a transitional phase from one thing to another. But as yet nothing's 100% definitive. It's been longer than 3 days as it was nearly 2 weeks ago that I started looking. Not long in this climate admittedly but it's really a case of lots of talented supply of workers and a shortage in demand. I'm not at the top of the supply chain for obvious reasons. I have a few things coming up and might get a call/response from something I applied to and then things could change. I agree that picking one thing and committing 100% is the way to go whatever it may be. Thanks for your contribution.

Thats quite encouraging. I'd probably do a bit of analysis to work out which activity really is giving you the best edge, and then start concentrating on that area.

Have you though about entering tournements ?, anyone half decent could probably make a reasonable living and get to do a bit of travelling etc.

I worked out that at the moment I currently could make as much playing poker as I can trading but with a lower risk. I could play a lot more poker and make more money too i'm sure. The beauty with poker is it's a game of the long run and the more hands you put in (assuming you win) you should make more money. Trading doesn't work out like that of course unless you're scalping for ticks and can keep trading at a high level for hours on end.

The problem however is scaleability, and improvements in player pools as you move up. Unlike trading you can't just decide to go bigger, do the same thing and expect to win the same way. Yes, you can get too big for a market and have difficulties shifting size but it's not something i'll have to worry about. Poker is also a very intensive activity and not a great ROI in relation to time spent.

I'm not so great at tournaments and the variance can be ridiculously high. I have avoided them in general for that reason and stick to cash games. Don't be fooled into the success of people travelling the world playing high stakes tournaments, it's a very tough life and few struggle to make a success of it without sponsorship of some form. You may have heard of some of these players who made a few million winning a tournament, but once you add up expenses, buy-ins they're not up anywhere as much as you'd think.

 

[BeginnerJoe]

Your time would be better spent trying to get whatever scraps of useful information you can on here and try to weed out the good from the bad and get in touch with people who trade sums of money you can only dream of.

I have decided the info here is not worth my effort, nor do I believe there are the kind of people you spoke of here. As for my criticisms for others, it's a strategy I use to weed out the completely useless. It works. The weak breaks down crying for mummy within a couple of posts. On the other hand the slipepery customers are more interesting. But they are very few in number.

If you know people who trade the kind of money I can only dream of, it didn't seem to have done you any good. No use for me to go down the same path.

 

[Masquerade]

I have decided the info here is not worth my effort, nor do I believe there are the kind of people you spoke of here. As for my criticisms for others, it's a strategy I use to weed out the completely useless. It works. The weak breaks down crying for mummy within a couple of posts.

If you know people who trade the kind of money I can only dream of, it didn't seemed to have done you any good. No use for me to go down the same path.

You don't need to spend all that time weeding people out, people's posts usually give it away. I generally find those who talk the loudest generally are the ones trying hardest to prove something. There is successful people who stay in the shadows and come out from time to time. Keep an eye out for them.

I do know of people that trade sums you & I would dream of. The difference is some of them work in arcades doing things I can't do on my account, some have coded software and there are others who trade discretionary of which I do speak to from time to time. They can give advice and suggestions, but they can't stop a frustrated person from clicking a button when the person knows they shouldn't. When trading in a discretionary manner it comes down to personality at the end of it all.

 

[new_trader]

Don't you think that anyone, no matter what their personality, could trade profitably assuming they were properly trained by a genuine trader to use a methodology that actually worked? (probably wouldn't involve any TA or charts at a guess....)

IMO: The answer is a resounding NO! Believing that there is a profitable 'system' or TA 'setup' that can be taught is a myth that not only keeps booksellers and system vendors in business but it also keeps alive the dreams and hopes of countless individuals who really are unsuited to this profession and should take up another less expensive hobby. Trading is a skill that cannot be taught, it must be learned, there are no mechanical solutions or short cuts. If you haven’t made any serious progress within 2-3 years of trying than it’s unlikely you ever will.

 

[morgan_edge]

Trading is a skill that cannot be taught, it must be learned, there are no mechanical solutions or short cuts.

How could something be impossible to teach?

Maybe the reason it seems impossible to be taught and there aren't many success stories is because usually the people doing the 'teaching' are just failed traders who couldn't do it themselves. I guess the people who can actually trade would never bother teaching their methods.

Mechanical systems seem to work for Goldman Sachs, too. Profit every single day in Q1 last year.

 

[Liquid validity]

Mechanical systems seem to work for Goldman Sachs, too. Profit every single day in Q1 last year.

+1

Stat arb HFT, AMM's, iceberg algo's.
Reduced ES liquidity due to pump and dump disruption algo's.
The list goes on and on.

To be fair though, thats the IB side, HFT isn't an option for retail
due to costs.

 

[the hare]

Mechanical systems seem to work for Goldman Sachs, too. Profit every single day in Q1 last year.

Thats interesting, do you know what instruments they where trading ?

I remember cheking out the long term equity curves for one of their FX funds last year, and was pleasantly surprised to find that their drawdown was actually greater than mine.

The key point I suppose is that some people just cant trade a mechanical system, regardless of its performance. By the same argument, some people cant make money investing with a profitable fund manager (they invest just before a period of drawdown, withdraw at a loss, re invest after seeing things are back on track exactly when the next drawdown occurs)

 

[new_trader]

How could something be impossible to teach?

Maybe the reason it seems impossible to be taught and there aren't many success stories is because usually the people doing the 'teaching' are just failed traders who couldn't do it themselves. I guess the people who can actually trade would never bother teaching their methods.

Mechanical systems seem to work for Goldman Sachs, too. Profit every single day in Q1 last year.

-10 Years
-242,000 Members (Less ~20% for multi nics?)
-72,923 discussions
-441 expert articles

Add this to all the other trading websites like elite trader, traders laboratory and forex factory and include all the books that have been written on trading over the last 100 years. Now ask yourself, what could possibly be left unsaid about trading?

If you haven't figured out by now (or within 2-3 years of trying) what you ought to be doing, you never will.

 

[tar]

Mechanical systems seem to work for Goldman Sachs, too. Profit every single day in Q1 last year.

IG group's last loss making day was a bank holiday in may 2008 .

 

[new_trader]

I guess the people who can actually trade would never bother teaching their methods.

The people who CAN actually trade are telling you that it cannot be taught. You cannot teach a skill that must be learned. But as always, people refuse to listen to those who can actually trade and instead keep looking for someone who will 'teach' them something...anything! People will spend 10 years looking for a 'system' or 'setup' so they can avoid 2-3 years of hard graft. I don't know what it is that makes people believe that everyone should be able to succeed. I cannot make myself clearer. If you can trade, then you will understand what I am saying, if you can't trade, then you will refuse to understand and continue to argue and search for a solution to the apparent paradox. Is it any wonder why those who can trade don't teach!

 

[piggybridges]

I can understand not being able to teach the ability to be able to take losses and handle emotions etc.
But Surely one can teach their actual method.

''People will spend 10 years looking for a 'system' or 'setup' so they can avoid 2-3 years of hard graft''

But at the end of the day, 'something' has to happen for you to get into a trade. There must be a certain catalyst or trigger that has to happen for someone to want to take a trade. People call this a 'setup'. What's wrong with looking for one?

Note, i'm just a newbie. A few weeks in trading an 8k account which i'm willing to lose. So far up a little over a grand/

Newtrader, do you make use of charts in your trading at all?

 

[BeginnerJoe]

The people who CAN actually trade are telling you that it cannot be taught.

Well, that's enough to tell me you don't know how to trade.

I can understand not being able to teach the ability to be able to take losses and handle emotions etc.

Your mistake is to accept noobie claims with no proof. If you continue to do that you are going to get swindled by all the double your money schemes here and lose your shirt.

 

[Liquid validity]

I remember cheking out the long term equity curves for one of their FX funds last year, and was pleasantly surprised to find that their drawdown was actually greater than mine.

Even GS blow up now and again:
Goldman to close Global Alpha fund after losses | Reuters

 

[new_trader]

Well, that's enough to tell me you don't know how to trade.




Your mistake is to accept noobie claims with no proof.

newbie

Believe me Joe, I am more than happy for you to believe and say absolutely anything you want about me. You are far too insignificant to matter.

 

[sinimini]

newbie

Believe me Joe, I am more than happy for you to believe and say absolutely anything you want about me. You are far too insignificant to matter.

Ha! Well said!

 

[BeginnerJoe]

newbie

Believe me Joe, I am more than happy for you to believe and say absolutely anything you want about me. You are far too insignificant to matter.

Well, you had better be happy. You know how I like to make people squirm by asking some very simple questions.

 

[new_trader]

I can understand not being able to teach the ability to be able to take losses and handle emotions etc.
But Surely one can teach their actual method.

I'm sure there is nothing I can say that will change your mind. Like I said, over 72,000 discussions in this forum over 10+ years...good luck!

 

[bonchi07]

In light of recent events I have concluded that I have some sick masochistic thing going on with trading and just when things start to get good, I go and do something pretty stupid to jeopardise it and go and lose close to the max on it.

I do consider myself to be somewhat informed and have a general awareness of good vs bad trades. However the problem is i'm plagued by some boredom/frustration/masochistic issues whereby I start to do stupid things and this is where my biggest losses have resulted from. I do engage in other speculative activities but never put myself in the same positions.

My most recent example being after taking a sizeable hit when euro plummeted a few weeks ago I was re-building my account after dropping close to 30% of my account in one trade. Which of course was a consequence of me averaging + no stop and just running it. (The only reason I closed was to prevent busting my account and i'll add that I generally trade with low leverage but after averaging multiple times the leverage starts to become an issue.) I digress though, so I was rebuilding my account and doing well until yesterday, after a week of feeling frustrated with the market and not much going on I decided to take a small trade, sadly I did not take the hit and resorted to averaging. There was times the loss was very insignificant but I decided to try get a profit. I speculated on trichet and got burnt even though I knew it was not good and I should have been out. So once again i'm back to where I was a few weeks ago and seeing this cycle.

Which brings me to the question: what effective techniques can I implement to control the masochistic masquerade? Are there any other people that seem to suffer from the plight of self-destruction and is there any way around this other than quitting (which i'd rather not do for a few reasons, but main one being when i'm good I can see a succesful trading future.)

Maybe i'm just rambling, but it helps me to feel a little better to vent at this time as i'm just fed up of history repeating itself and have a general feeling of disappointment with myself. :|

I know the feeling and as hard as it sounds I think there is a very important need "to be right" and that is why the averaging down or trying to make it back, "revenge trading" in other words.
I think it is overall lack of discipline or self sabotage. I am trying to do mental rehearsal before trading. Mental repetition is the key for creating behavior. It is a work in progress so dont expect results overnight. Persistance is the key to be able to change. We have to train our minds, otherwise, we will keep repeating the same mistakes over and over because subscounciosly we have trained our minds to do that. Re-training is hard work but not impossible.