Calling all "Senior Members T2W" Experienced traders! Help Newbies?

Socrates, I'm sure you are already aware of these, but I did a little search which returned the following.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he has learned at school"
Albert (Einstein)

"You have to learn the rules of the game. Then you have to play better than anyone else"

"To me the worst thing seems to be a school principally to work with methods of fear, force and artificial authority. Such treatment destroys the sound sentiments, the sincerity and the self -confidence of pupils and produces a subservient subject"

"It's a miracle that curiosity survives formal education"

"Information is not knowledge"

"The only source of knowledge is experience"

All above, by the same
 
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That is why my parents decided to name me in his honour, in the hope that I would always remain constructively inquisitive and persist in pushing the envelope, like he did in his lifetime.
 
ravenglass said:
I have noticed when researching background of the greatest investors/traders is that nearly all of them have attended the best universities & are educated to masters/phd level.

So being highly educated does help investors/traders & attending the right university advances their career.


They may have attended the best Universities, and that is why they write books. I wonder how many of them would survive in the Pits trading for a living??

No reflection on the contribution by Socrates inferred!!

John
 
ravenglass said:
I have noticed when researching background of the greatest investors/traders is that nearly all of them have attended the best universities & are educated to masters/phd level.

So being highly educated does help investors/traders & attending the right university advances their career.
There is a strong correlation between getting accepted into the best universities and into their graduate programs, and having parents who are wealthy, and understand how the world really works, and doing what is necessary to inspire a desire for learning in their offspring.

If I remember correctly, most of the greatest investors/traders had at least once complete wipeout in their trading career (meaning they not only lost their stake, but couldn't meet margin call and were deeply in dept). But somehow they managed to get another stake together within just a few years and were unafraid to give it another go. Their network of friends and family probably saw their failed situation as temporary - and didn't think they had made permanent fools of themselves.They may have even helped them try again.

In addition, someone from the working class would probably have to work 5 years or more - just to put together a minimum account opener, they know what it took to extract that initial stake from the system - and their fear of losing it causes them to act in ways that are counter productive to their trading success. I doubt that anyone who had a wipeout like that from the working class would get anything but ridicule from their family and friends, along with an admonishment to put their nose back on the grindstone and quit living in hopes of a fantasy...

Not saying an average fellow/gal can't make it, just noting that they may have to climb a steeper part of the cliff...
JO
 
Having parents who are wealthy, and understand how the world really works, and doing what is necessary to inspire a desire for learning in their offspring.

I agree with you, it helps a great deal.

If I remember correctly, most of the greatest investors/traders had at least once complete wipeout in their trading career (meaning they not only lost their stake, but couldn't meet margin call and were deeply in dept). But somehow they managed to get another stake together within just a few years and were unafraid to give it another go. Their network of friends and family probably saw their failed situation as temporary - and didn't think they had made permanent fools of themselves.They may have even helped them try again.

Not all great traders have had wipeouts, however they learn from their mistakes. Their network of friends and family will encourage them to try it again & give confidence to do it again & again until they succeed.

In addition, someone from the working class would probably have to work 5 years or more - just to put together a minimum account opener, they know what it took to extract that initial stake from the system - and their fear of losing it causes them to act in ways that are counter productive to their trading success. I doubt that anyone who had a wipeout like that from the working class would get anything but ridicule from their family and friends, along with an admonishment to put their nose back on the grindstone and quit living in hopes of a fantasy...

Not saying an average fellow/gal can't make it, just noting that they may have to climb a steeper part of the cliff...



Agree with you again, it is more difficult for someone from the working class to be successful. Until recently society & their peers would never encourage them & would ridicule them if they showed any signs of wanting something different.

Most (not all) of the great traders come from America. In America people have a lot more confidence in themselves, in Britain (at least until recently) people where never encouraged to have much confidence in themselves). We are still many years behind America.
 
Thirteen said:
4 the rest of u - ask your self this - how long does it take u 2 read all of alberts posts? quite a while i bet. dont u think your time would be better off spent learning the markets first hand and 4 your self? as the great dali lama said 'dont ask me for the answer. only u can find the right answer'

the answer is always individual.

my guess is that u all read this stuff as u see it as a shortcut - which oddly enough contradicts what albert is dictating.
:cool:
Thirteen, Whilst I am not agreeing with Socrates posts or Disagreeing with them because clearly at this point I am neither qualified nor experienced enough. I would like to ask why are you spending valuable time reading this thread. I do hope that you won't find that question offencive as it is difficult on BBs to ask a polite question without some body language and tone of voice.

your quote by dali lama brings another thought and to why I am watching this thread.

I played golf almost every day for year,if I was not playing I spent hours practising. After a year and winning quite a few competitions my handicap was reduced from 18 to 10. I continued practising & playing for a further two years but my handicap remained at 10.
I then searched and used several golf professionals to Analise my swing/putting ect. This went on for a further 18 months to no avail,my game would not improve, even though I changed my swing technique/grip/stance the lot. Then I was fortunate to meet a golf pro who had a completely different approach.
He taught me to look at things a little diffrently,he was more interested in my mind set and not my swing(which he agreed after playing a round of golf was not too bad).
We then spent the next three months exploring what my thoughts where as I took each shot.

The Golf Pro and I then went out to play a few golf holes the next day.
I hit a great drive and only had 150yds to go for my next shot to the green,"what do you see" asked the golf pro? My answer "I see a tight pin tucked backed right with a water hazard just off the right off the green and my main concern is not to go right, into the water.

OK he said "your main concern is not to go into the water" my reply absolutely if I go into the water I will receive a penalty shot.
So, said the golf pro, you main thought is not to go into the water, hit the ball and I will bet that is exactly where you will end up! because that is the last message you sent to your brain. "FOCUS ON THE WATER HAZARD"

He then went on to mentor me with putting with my eyes closed only using my mind to see the image of the hole and the course it should take to get there, with amazing results after short time.

I also studied a golf guru "Dr Bob Rotella" who has helped many top professional golfers including Tom Watson & Lately Tiger Woods has spoken with him. One of DR Bob books is "Putting out of your Mind " if any golfers are interested.
My point is this : Without training my mind a little, I do not believe I would of ever achieved single figure golf handicap. This would never of been achieved had I not met a great golf pro mentor.

Yes I had to find it within myself but it helps a little if someone might show you a suitable path.
Is Socrates the one,who knows at this point. But I wish I had not wasted all of them years studying the wrong things.
Any great golfer will tell you basic technique is important and difficult to learn(unless you are a natural), but training your mind is far more difficult.
Why is the England Footballer "Wayne Rooney" a genius? Because he thinks he is?
Just a thought why I thought this thread my be interesting to some people. Sorry I babbled on a bit.

Regards
 
Ooh, here's a turn up...
I agree wirth Soc posts 157/158 just about verbatim <g> I'm not really arguing against your conclusions in the main, just where you let the extrapolations fly to. Curiosity, drive, ambition, effort - all good words in my view.
Nicos (and Albert E) I'll take issue with as it's not really accurate - Albert E was a mediocre student, according to legend, though seen more as lazy than unable. His career as a patent clerk freed up valuable time that he put to good use.. the rest is History ... (and quite a bit of Physics <g>)
Schools, with respect, bear little resemblance to those in Albert E's day - whilst amusing those quotes have no more relevance than quotes about surgeon barbers have to modern medicine. So a grin is fine, but please don't take them too seriously!

FWIW I think 'Thirteen' made quite a good final point there - just because it's graffiti doesn't make it untrue....

I will read on, interested as ever - I promise to stop biting at the sideswipes at formal education as best I can... I would just remind all here that we're (mostly) probably a while out of formal education and it has changed somewhat over the years! Oddly, a common complaint, is that we are sending out well rounded individuals rather than the fodder industry needs....

Dave
 
Garden

Your analogy regarding you golf swing was perfect................just like trading!! Learn the rudiments, perfect your trading style, then have confidence in what you are aiming for.

I bet when you played the hole with the water hazard................you didnt go for the pin, but the middle of the green !!! Same thing when trading, accept what the market gives, not what you hope it will give.

Best wishes

John
 
Uncle said:
They may have attended the best Universities, and that is why they write books. I wonder how many of them would survive in the Pits trading for a living??

No reflection on the contribution by Socrates inferred!!

John
Yes uncle, we agree again, that all of that does not prepare anyone for this.
 
DaveJB said:
Ooh, here's a turn up...
I agree wirth Soc posts 157/158 just about verbatim <g> I'm not really arguing against your conclusions in the main, just where you let the extrapolations fly to. Curiosity, drive, ambition, effort - all good words in my view.
Nicos (and Albert E) I'll take issue with as it's not really accurate - Albert E was a mediocre student, according to legend, though seen more as lazy than unable. His career as a patent clerk freed up valuable time that he put to good use.. the rest is History ... (and quite a bit of Physics <g>)
Schools, with respect, bear little resemblance to those in Albert E's day - whilst amusing those quotes have no more relevance than quotes about surgeon barbers have to modern medicine. So a grin is fine, but please don't take them too seriously!

FWIW I think 'Thirteen' made quite a good final point there - just because it's graffiti doesn't make it untrue....

I will read on, interested as ever - I promise to stop biting at the sideswipes at formal education as best I can... I would just remind all here that we're (mostly) probably a while out of formal education and it has changed somewhat over the years! Oddly, a common complaint, is that we are sending out well rounded individuals rather than the fodder industry needs....

Dave
Incidentally and apropos, Albert Einstein had a girlfriend called Fantova that he had known for many years that he used to take out for trips in a sailing boat that he kept on a lake. She passed away earlier this year and left a diary, in which she recorded many of the conversations she had with him on these outings. In one of them she records how her friend complained that the Physicists accused him of being a Philosopher and the Philosophers accused him of not being philosophical enough and of being a Physicist. He further went on to confide in Fantova his great disillusionment and sadness, that he felt he was the lonliest man on earth, as a consequence of not being understood by anyone.

With regard to the merits of Graffitti as to whether they may be true or not, this is of no consequence, inasmuch as if you happen to visit a public loo and there is graffitti on the walls this does not prevent you form doing your wiwi, and so in parallel, the presence of Graffitti is not going to prevent this discussion being maintained at the standard set, and of this, if you are not, I am personally determined.

Kind Regards.
 
Thirteen asks: how long does it take u 2 read all of alberts posts?

It takes me about an hour a day to read all the posts associated with a thread when Soc is involved. I usually do it in between chart watching - there is a lot of 'waiting' to trading. I can see by the pattern what is likely to happen if that pattern continues. But even if you are a day trader or a scalper, the majority of the day is spent waiting for the right moment to set up, and then watching to see when it's time to get out.

The part that is most interesting to me is the give and take between those of us who think we know (but don't really have a clue) and people like yourself, skim, trader333, soc, and many others who say they are experienced and successful traders. Not withstanding my earlier skeptical posts, - I trust you all more than people who are trying to sell me something...

I nearly snorted soda pop out my nose this morning when I looked at an one of my earlier posts and saw that I am now listed as a "senior member" of this forum - (Now that's funny - I don't care who you are!) I guess if I just keep blurting, I'll soon be legendary!
JO
 
Uncle said:
Garden

Your analogy regarding you golf swing was perfect................just like trading!! Learn the rudiments, perfect your trading style, then have confidence in what you are aiming for.

I bet when you played the hole with the water hazard................you didnt go for the pin, but the middle of the green !!! Same thing when trading, accept what the market gives, not what you hope it will give.

Best wishes

John
John, Yes the middle of the green but with a more focused thought. The golf pro taught me to train my mind to believe that I could actually see the pin in the middle of the green,as the mind will become more focused on a specif small target rather than a large green, the clearer the signal he used to say the more chance you had.Incidentally trying to focus like this for four hours on a golf round is exhausting. If you can do it for 1/2 dozen shots I am sure it will improve your handicap.
The more you do it the easy it becomes but it' takes time and dedication. You must way up where the hazards and the pit falls are he said, but once you have made up your mind you must be clear and confident and have self belief that you can do it. ie your last thought before you hit the ball should be a positive one not negative.
If you can not do this just hit at the water hazard chances are you miss the hazard because your not focused and ready, probably hit the green 50/50????
Thanks
 
JumpOff said:
It takes me about an hour a day to read all the posts associated with a thread when Soc is involved. I usually do it in between chart watching - there is a lot of 'waiting' to trading. I can see by the pattern what is likely to happen if that pattern continues. But even if you are a day trader or a scalper, the majority of the day is spent waiting for the right moment to set up, and then watching to see when it's time to get out.

The part that is most interesting to me is the give and take between those of us who think we know (but don't really have a clue) and people like yourself, skim, trader333, soc, and many others who say they are experienced and successful traders. Not withstanding my earlier skeptical posts, - I trust you all more than people who are trying to sell me something...

I nearly snorted soda pop out my nose this morning when I looked at an one of my earlier posts and saw that I am now listed as a "senior member" of this forum - (Now that's funny - I don't care who you are!) I guess if I just keep blurting, I'll soon be legendary!
JO
Yes, quite so ! We are not selling anything, and we dont want to sell anything because what is of real value either has no price or is unaffordable, totally unaffordable.

Therefore nothing is offered for sale, not because there might not be people willing to buy but because we do not need to, and do not want to, despite the occasional pillock who persists in falsely asserting that all of this is some sort of marketing or selling or other nonsense.

This is being done because there are many of you are in need of serious help. And whether you are aware of the fact or not is inconsenquential. The medicine will continue to be delivered whether the patient agrees with the diagnosis or not, as, from our viewpoint, we are very well qualified by our hard earned kwowledge as a consequence of long experience to judge impartially in these matters, with neither fear nor favour, who needs treatment and who doesn't.
 
Ah ! And by the way, that is not being pompous or demeaning or otherwise, that is being brutally honest.
There is too much nonsense bandied about this topic for my liking, and I am determined, absolutely determined to lay the record straight.
 
Thirteen said:
as for the remarks about class - this just is not true.....'working class' as u guys call them with your nose in the air. the reason for this is that these guys get up and dust themselves down after a hit and come back fighting. they dont sit around bitchin about 'their books and academics never said this would happen'or oh no what will my family/neighbourhood think of me, or oh dear i wont be able to send little tarquin to school anymore.

Yes - I stand corrected - I often confuse the labels for these groups. Labels often don't make any sense to me anyway. I am speaking of the group that owns their own home and makes their monthly payments (barely), - but has been trained to fear slipping down and to envy those above. Is this called the lower middle class? Socrates refers to these folks as the ones who keep the treadmill going...
 
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Thirteen

Thirteen said:
not at all. i dont get upset with questions or different oppinions.


i mean wot is actually being talked about here? trading? no. how to teach from what i have read so far. its as simple as this - you either can or cant pull the trigger when there is an opportunity. simple as that. if you cant - figure out why. if u still cant, then try another occupation. trading aint 4 all of u. just like academia isnt for me - cos im dyslexic

as unlce said - 'i dont know all the answers, and i know i never will' this is a real gem. it is the truth. this guy knows the markets always change, so therefore does the learning curve. so why is every1 following someone who thinks they do have all the answers? i hope gardan this last point helps u.

Thirteen, I agree with above, If i may use my golf story to explain,technique may bring some golfers some rewards but only a small percentage will be consistent at staying at the top and winning major competitions.
How do they do this when they are required to play on different golf course all around the world. No golf course is the same and has different hazards at every hole.

Is it because they have the confidence and self belief to except the hazards for what they are and pull the trigger(hit the ball) at the spot they require it to land, knowing that if there preparation for that shot/hole is correct the hazards may only be a distraction set out for the less strong minded golfer.

My point is learning to pull the trigger may be more important as learning how to load the gun.
I think this some people may be natural born trigger pullers and some may be able to open there mind to be better trigger pullers.
I agree everyone can not pull the trigger,that is why everyone is not a top golfer or trader including me in both. But we may all get satisfaction from different levels of success from our chosen profession/sport and maybe not give up just because we can not win the British golf open.

Thanks Gary
 
Im not sure you can be taught to pull the trigger , or if you can it's going to be quite some process..frankly I think you just do it enough times until it becomes habitual and hopefully in the process you learn from your mistakes quickly enough that you don't encounter ruin... but to put that into the context of unlearning mentioned above ...you have to learn that lifes situations ,trading included, don't have one right answers attached to them...the best on offer is probabilities and by their nature this means being wrong some of the time ...classical education (maybe not as much today) used to incorporate the notion of being either right or wrong , always looking for the right answer ,none of which is applicable to real life situations which deal with simply finding acceptable solutions from a multitude of varied information on offer .. that is problem solving rather looking for right answers...
 
Freezing/not pulling the trigger is a common problem amongst those I coach.
Usually the source is fear of loss, waiting for more "confirmation" and so on.
However, these difficulties can be addressed successfully without too much difficulty in my experience.
You must have a trading plan which works and have the self discipline to stick to it. How you actually achieve that end
must break off SNDK trade needs attention
 
Sorry about that

.......can be problematical.
The first step is knowing from previous observation and actual analysis of results that a particular method works a high percentage of the time.
Secondly, a short period of practice re-inforces that confidence before trading live.
Thirdly a period of trading in small size with specific targets in percentage success rate, profits, win:loss size etc allows the trader to gain confidence and actually experience the emotions that go with learning to trade. As you move on successfully with steadily increasing share size and profits

SDNK reaching critical level again - back in a moment
 
JumpOff said:
Yes - I stand corrected - I often confuse the lables for these groups. Labels often don't make any sense to me anyway. I am speaking of the group that owns their own home and makes their monthly payments (barely), - but has been trained to fear slipping down and to envy those above. Is this called the lower middle class? Socrates refers to these folks as the ones who keep the treadmill going...
Not everybody who is on a treadmill conforms to class structure.

There are different treadmills for differnt people, some make treadmills of their own making and relentlessly strive to go up and up by working all the hours that god sends, by taking on heavier and heavier committments, and the final target is lost because the very excercise of seeking to attain becomes the raison d'etre itself. These people are workaholics.

They are to be found in the professions, mainly, sometimes in the arts. They are the victims of broken marriages, dysfunctional relationships, and many end up leading fundamentally unhappy lives owing to all their energies being diverted and concentrated on achieving material gain, which when achieved for them is a pyrrhic victory.
Typical Habitat : Capital Cities.

Another category of treadmill is what is classed as "the company man". The company man is obsessed with beavering away at his job, and places his job first in his scale of priorities, including friends, neighbours, relatives, children, wives, so that no one or anything matters except "the job". This individual is so obsessed that he fails to notice how it is that the infrastructure of family and friends and relatives and ordinary life we all take for granted as normal has crumbled as a consequence of his dereliction of attention owing to his obsession and persistence with his "job". This is the type of individual who volunteers to work on a weekend, whether paid or unpaid, who waddles about heaving a heavy briefcase full of papers that he takes home every night, (because the office hours are not long enough, because there is no one to do it, because he can do it better, because he will be noticed and given a better job, and so on., ) He is the individual you see on trains late in the evening on the way home, worrying and fretting, surrounded by papers, the calculator, the mobile phone that keeps on ringing, this is the compulsive, driven executive, prime candidate for a heart attack, and the first, to his anger, to be made redundant at the first reshuffle.
( Typical Habitat: Leafy Suburbia )

Another category of treadmill is that of what is classed as "underrated". This is the individual who is conciencious, decent , loyal, hardworking, honest, but is never noticed or promoted because what he is doing is absolutely reliable and there is hidden vested interest that he should be kept at it as there is not anyone in the immediate vicinity who could do it better or more consciencously than he, and besides, the salary is not that great. He becomes a victim of his own success, which is to be totally reliable and compliant. It is not until it is too late that he realises his own potential and by that time ageism has overcome his possibilities within the frame he occupies. (Habitat : Possibly Bachelor Flat)

Another is that of the "high flyer". This creature is a wonder to observe. He will do anything for money. he is prepared at the drop of a hat to fly round the world to bring back an acorn, just to show off and please his boss. He is the worst type of individual to encounter in the workplace because he has no morals whatsoever, the object of the excercise is to chase money by whatever means. Colleagues are there to be used, trampled upon, double crossed, anything, absolutely anything, just to get ahead and have a bigger car, and a better house, and membership of a better golf club (networking, you know, nudge nudge., ) and so on. ( Typical Habitat : Ostentatious Detatched Residence)

I mean, I could write a book on this topic alone. No, to be on a treadmill does not necessarily imply working class, or middle class or aristocracy or otherwise it means that the individual is not free, owing to a daily obligation or commitment that is systematic. He is therefore not in control of his own use of time in a flexible context , mainly but there are other considerations.
 
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