Calling all "Senior Members T2W" Experienced traders! Help Newbies?

timcannel, you may treat it as amusement, but I assure you it is not a joke. You succeed or fail according to the quality of your thinking and how you direct it. None of this is here for your benefit or mine, for this reason, if you want some brainwork, in getting interested in markets, you have come to the right place ! You succeed or fail according to the quality of your thinking and how you apply it. Your Call !


Kind Regards.
 
SOCRATES said:
timcannel, you may treat it as amusement, but I assure you it is not a joke. You succeed or fail according to the quality of your thinking and how you direct it. None of this is here for your benefit or mine, for this reason, if you want some brainwork, in getting interested in markets, you have come to the right place !

Kind Regards.

I dont disagree that the 'quality of your thinking and how you direct it' is vital - I believe I think fairly effectively every day at work; I also however believe that alot of unnecessary abstractions are made around the subject of trading; which far from having the effect of directing thinking, achieve exactly the opposite. Trading is not difficult - with some discipline and the most basic understanding of arithemtic it IS possible to be successful - its all about filtering out he irrelevant and keeping focus on the important...
 
Let's try to shed some light by thinking about method and system using standard dictionary definitions which should be close enough to get a clarifying discussion going... so handbags down ;) ... and here we go

Method... a procedure or way of doing something ... note the 'action' content in this definition


System... a set of connected things or parts that form a whole ,.... note that implicitly there is no 'action' content to this definition..

thoughts ?
 
Chumpy, that is exactly what I defined, but some people see fit not exactly to argue, but to try to skirt around the fact that all of this contains a structure of its own, and is not a random daydream, like they persist in treating it as if it were poetry, or dance, or some other "fluid" activity. The dunces accuse me of trying to put "spin" on this. There is no spin, it is the way it is, brutally, and to the point.
 
chump said:
Let's try to shed some light by thinking about method and system using standard dictionary definitions which should be close enough to get a clarifying discussion going... so handbags down ;) ... and here we go

Method... a procedure or way of doing something ... note the 'action' content in this definition


System... a set of connected things or parts that form a whole ,.... note that implicitly there is no 'action' content to this definition..

thoughts ?

I think this definition is the one I'll go with... to just add my spin in a trading context, Method is the 'set of actions' one takes to realise a trading System - this is a 'set of rules' which define market conditions for successful trades ( it may be discretionary or mechanical ).
 
IME(xperience0 maybe 80% of 'disagreements' in life are nothing more than misunderstanding based on 'miscommunication' ... language and perception are killers for communication...and the internet adds to that by denying us essential parts of the communication process ....
 
SOCRATES said:
Chumpy, that is exactly what I defined, but some people see fit not exactly to argue, but to try to skirt around the fact that all of this contains a structure of its own, and is not a random daydream, like they persist in treating it as if it were poetry, or dance, or some other "fluid" activity. The dunces accuse me of trying to put "spin" on this. There is no spin, it is the way it is, brutally, and to the point.

The 'dunces' of the group ? I personally dont find you to the point by any stretch of my imagination :) That not slanging just an completely honest personal statement.
 
post 215 one I prepared earlier ... ;) ... you'd be surprised how many times we put connotations on words which were never intended by the sender
 
Continued from Post ~ No 146....

Dave JB, continuing from post 146, and continuing with the topic of teaching, you are now beginning to observe for yourself by following this thread how difficult it is for ordinary people to properly master this topic.

You will observe how it is that very clear and precise explanations are given to illustrate points.
Each point has important relevance. Each point has its place.

The point must not be changed, because, it it is, it only leads to confusion when trying to access the relevant information in a hurry, as none of these gentlemen who seriously operate in this theatre are going to wait for some newbie to make up his mind on the basis that he is a newbie and still learning.

Nothing of the sort. But people persist in trying to take shortcuts of all sorts, both tangible and intangible, believing that there is some easy route. This thread promises to become really interesting as it develops further.

You are going to witness the reluctance of people to accept to become impartial against all reason. You are going to experience people here committing the same errors time and time again, despite detailed and exhaustive explanations with rock solid reasons to underpin what is explained and you are going to experience people persistently committing errors of Omission, Commission and Principle repeatedly after having had them explained very clearly indeed.

You are going to experience how it is that people will cling to their belief structures fiercely despite evidence to the contrary that it is the wrong thing to do, and Chumpy up here brings up the topic of unlearning, which is what the majority are unwilling or unable to do.

Let us see if he has more luck in being able to make progress in this regard. It may now begin to dawn on you why it is that I no longer am willing to teach. All of these exchanges are discussions, and intended to raise the awareness of the audience of what it is they ought not to do in preference of what it is they ought to do, but I promise you it is a huge endeavour.

You can now see how this thread and its development is illustrating the difficulties that people have in grasping and accepting a concept and RETAINING it. If it were not so interesting it would be exasperating.
 
To be frank I wished I had not mentioned the subject of unlearning... I've never had much success explaining this to people I know on a face to face basis so how I expect to accomplish that on the internet I am not sure.. I'll think about it and see what I can come up with..
 
SOCRATES said:
Continued from Post ~ No 146....
............
You can now see how this thread and its development is illustrating the difficulties that people have in grasping and accepting a concept and RETAINING it. If it were not so interesting it would be exasperating.

Socrates

Maybe it would be less exasperating to concentrate attention on those who do grasp, accept and retain. Unfortunately, there is little point in posting agreement if there is nothing further to add so they will tend to go unnoticed.

As I said earlier, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. It's up to each individual to decide whether they are going to "cling to their belief stucture......etc" and if that leads to a few dead and dying horses on the bank of the river so be it. To continue with the equine flavour, you can't flog a dead horse :LOL:

regards

jon
 
Last edited:
chump said:
To be frank I wished I had not mentioned the subject of unlearning... I've never had much success explaining this to people I know on a face to face basis so how I expect to accomplish that on the internet I am not sure.. I'll think about it and see what I can come up with..
Don't you worry Chumpy, I know exactly how to explain it in a way everybody is guaranteed to understand, but I am trying to multitask here with trading, a bit of carpentry and posting, so if you would like me to open Pandora's Box for the audience perhaps later, I will.
 
Thirteen,
In the generality, yes you would expect illiquidity, but specifically I have methods which find those stocks which are moving in ways which are profitable with my methods.
It is true that on thin days there are fewer opportunities, but they are still there almost all the time if you know where and how to look. In fact yesterday I had three successful trades on SNDK and a very early one on CTXS which was also profitable. No losers.
HTH
Richard
 
Thirteen

Thank you for the suggestion and again I do apologise if I misinterpreted you. Personally I am finding it hard enough to keep up with this thread, the last one Socrates produced, my own trading and research let alone work and home commitments. I have only been able to get involved so far as I am on leave but due to return next week so I will have much less time on my hands. I simply do not have the time to give such an enterprise the proper and undivided attention. It sounds like a very good suggestion for people with similar ideas. However I feel a trading plan is also very personal and explicit to the needs of the individual. The actual method by which you base your trades is another matter. I am still part time at this and still have a lot to learn and would suggest someone who has made the grade and has the time and inclination will be better suited to this task than me.

Socrates

I accept your reply, I have to admit I rushed the post what I was trying to get across is that some traders, me included did not properly prepare for trading when starting out. By considering how you trade and all the problems you may face then by preparing in advance you have something to draw on to get you through and assist in blocking out the negative emotions and keeping your discipline.

Much like the first aider who having attended the course suddenly while out discovers a horrendous accident and before him is a ghastly mess, enough to make you lose your breakfast. He has never had to do it for real before and hopes someone else steps forward. But there is no one else and he has to get on with it and quickly. But instead he gets a grip on things and falls back on the training and sets about performing the important tasks of life saving etc. Only later does it sink in exactly how well he took charge of a difficult and stressful situation by applying his training and experience.

If it helps I read a book by Elder, 'come into my trading room' which included the area of trading plans and I believe it helped me. Like all trading books it will not provide you with everything but I found it a good read, it did not cost and arm and was presented in an easy flowing style. And no I am not on commission. With any research you want it to help expand your thinking to improve your trading plan and system.

Regards

Kevin
 
Socrates

Let me see if I have got this right. A trading plan which becomes very personal to your own trading needs is designed by yourself (this is best so that it meets your needs) which in turn produces a method. Each component within this method is based on your own experience which has been tested to confirm its correct nature from confirmed knowledge and your own ability to apply it correctly. The application of trading the method correctly according to the rules within it becomes a system.

Regards

Kevin
 
barjon said:
Socrates

Maybe it would be less exasperating to concentrate attention on those who do grasp, accept and retain. Unfortunately, there is little point in posting agreement if there is nothing further to add so they will tend to go unnoticed.

As I said earlier, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. It's up to each individual to decide whether they are going to "cling to their belief stucture......etc" and if that leads to a few dead and dying horses on the bank of the river so be it. To continue with the equine flavour, you can't flog a dead horse :LOL:

regards

jon
Rear Barjon,

The problem is that people as I have said before, are very skilled in ordinary life at fudging.

Sometimes this fudging of theirs is harmless, and sometimes it is not.

Unfortunately, the skilled fudgers are very skilled at it and what is more, at hiding that they fudge everything they can lay their hands on because it is a matter of habit, culture, and ultimately if analysed in the correct moral light as dishonest or unfair, we have no alternative but to accept it emanates from their corrupted perspective to do with survival. The survival drive is what drives the fudging.

This survival technique works in ordinary life, and its skilled operators are admired, you see, they are described as "having savvy", "knowing a thing or two" or the ultimate accolade in the Beeezness World, being "Streetwise".

Now in the markets, none of this nonsense is tolerated, all decisions when participating are final, there is no appeal, the result is irrevocable, and it does not matter who bleats or tries to cheat, but the system and the way in which is operated is not "fudge friendly". It is in fact "fudge hostile".

For this reason, and for this reason alone, it causes the previously "testosterone charged streetwisers" to reel with shock to experience that for all their fudging, cheating, skyving, etc., skills acquired in what they call "the real world" none of it works or is tolerated here.

This new world that they now venture to enter is constructed to scrape off such people, and only to admit on ability, merit and on conduct. This is an enormous shock to them and a personal affront to them both personally and collectively.

As those who have the correct attributes of patience, openmindedness, determination, decency and honour and above all the correct behaviour and attitude, are proved to be in the relative minority in comparison with the testosterone charged mob, then what happens is that additionally, the contrived selection process the markets impose, quickly sort out who's who in the zoo.

The squeals of rage can he heard on the others side of Africa. Anything and everything becomes a target, except themselves and their own ineptitudes of course, because, additionally, the human persona, views itself as perfect : It has to; since its main mission is the preservation of life. The preservation of life cannot be entrusted to a persona whose view of itself is flawed. This is an Axiom. An Axiom is a fundamenttal truth.

But, I say again, the market sorts them out. You or I could not do it. I have tried, I have tried very hard indeed in the past, I have tried much harder than could ordinarily be expected of anyone, and I have persisted in trying, and doing so for a very long time, with not always the results I expected.

This has taught me that people do not carry labels on their foreheads to certify that they are fit and proper people suitable to be admitted to what is undoubtedly the most challenging, the most exciting, the most satisfying, the most awesome, and ultimately the most beautiful profession of modernity.

For this reason, as a result of my first hand experience, I am no longer benign and willing to make excuses to let people off, on the basis that either they were orphans, or had made "mistakes", or "didn't mean it" or "thought you would not notice" or "thought you did not care" or " that it would not mean much to you after all" or "you can afford it"or "I can get away with it" or "this is a good excuse" or "let's be fair" (according to Beezness methods) or "I can take unfair advantage of everything, the trick is not to get caught" and so on.

No, my dear Barjon, not any more. That is why I am not willing to teach. Teaching (and teaching correctly involves a structured programme of learning, in ascending rafts of complexity which involves a huge amount of effort) I will not do it anymore for all the reasons above , but what I am willing to do is to continue to point in the right direction, I am willing to enter discussion in order to help people raise their standards of awareness, and I am willing to set the record straight, by flattening any nonsense if and when it should appear.

And there you have it, Barjon, which is the chain of reasoning I am pursuing with our fellow member Dave JB, to his consternation and alarm. And Bramble, Pay Attention !

Kind Regards As Usual.
 
Last edited:
kevin546 said:
Socrates

Let me see if I have got this right. A trading plan which becomes very personal to your own trading needs is designed by yourself (this is best so that it meets your needs) which in turn produces a method. Each component within this method is based on your own experience which has been tested to confirm its correct nature from confirmed knowledge and your own ability to apply it correctly. The application of trading the method correctly according to the rules within it becomes a system.

Regards

Kevin
Kevin, you have got all the bits but the fit is not perfect.

See your last line; and I quote:~

"The application of trading the method correctly according to the rules within it becomes a system" is incorrect (errror of principle).

It should read:~ "The application of trading the method correctly according to the rules within it becomes a Gestalt"

I will remind you, that a Gestalt is a German word that means
"something which is (sic. results in being) greater than the sum of its parts",
whereas a system is an inert entity, and remains so until a method is applied to it.

"Thought is everything".

Kind Regards.
 
Ah ! And by the way, correct thought is more than everything, because, contrary to popular myth, it is what money cannot buy, and this is what Skim means by it being "unaffordable".

Kind Regards As Usual.
 
Top