my journal

This is a discussion on my journal within the Trading Journals forums, part of the Reception category; Thanks, Karel, for your very good description: what was smoking for you (wanting to quit, and not wanting to quit ...

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Sep 11, 2009, 8:39pm   #36
 
travis's Avatar
Joined Mar 2003
travis started this thread Thanks, Karel, for your very good description: what was smoking for you (wanting to quit, and not wanting to quit at once) trading is for me. Definitely a perfect example and description of the feelings I experience.

However, I find it hard to work on my subconscious: my subconscious is smarter than me, and doesn't get deceived by stories of lungs being like sand-paper. First of all, I don't know how to get in touch with my subconscious. Where do I find him, to talk to him? And, if I tell him "look at the balance, discretionary trading is bad...", he's going to tell me "get out of here... it is just because you are not using stoplosses, or else you'd be making 100% returns a month: remember last November?"

"Endorphins"... actually, I have a feeling that a lot of this has to do with not having a girlfriend, because otherwise I would make a sexy time with her every time I have those feelings of emptiness.

---

Another thing is that, besides for example today being really happy about making those 300 dollars I eventually made, I actually deep down inside me feel that I am totally capable of making money. I can't accept that so many people make money trading so fast after their start, and I still cannot be profitable after 12 years. I cannot accept my limit. I was taught by my father to always push my limits further, and not trading discretionary because I am not profitable seems like quitting to me.

---

But thank you. All the things you told me will stay with me, and will be useful at one time or another. Right now, I don't feel like you gave me the "eureka" answer, but maybe you planted an idea in me that will grow... and eventually make me solve the problem, like you solved yours.

Last edited by travis; Sep 11, 2009 at 8:48pm.
travis is offline  
Old Sep 11, 2009, 10:21pm   #37
 
barjon's Avatar
Joined May 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis View Post
......................... I actually deep down inside me feel that I am totally capable of making money..............
travis

That's your rational self talking and you're right. Unfortunately that rebel demon inside you just hates rules of any kind, even loosely framed ones drawn by your rational self. eg: rational self - " I should cut this trade now": rebel demon " no way, man, let's rock and roll".

If you can't cast out your rebel demon then you have to subvert him in your discretionary trading as you have done in your automated trading. Maybe this somewhat simplistic piece would help T2W Day Trading & Forex Community

Cheers

jon
barjon is offline  
Thanks! The following members like this post: tenbobtrader
Old Sep 11, 2009, 11:10pm   #38
 
montmorencyt2w's Avatar
Joined May 2008
Hi Travis,

As before, you yourself know the answers to your problem better than any of us here (notwithstanding all the good advice given above). The problem is putting the solutions into effect.

For example, you said that for a whole year while you were developing automated systems, you didn't try trading in a discretionary way. You clearly get a buzz from programming (can relate to that), and it might be an even bigger buzz than you get from discretionary trading (and we should return to exactly what _you_ mean by that phrase below). It seems to me that what you shouldn't be doing is trading, but writing systems for other people to trade, either with their own money, or (under very strict conditions, and of course, only the right people) your money. In an ideal world, you would never even trade your own automated system, let along your discretionary one, so you may be able to uninstall the appropriate software from computers in your immediate vicinity, and have some distance from temptation.

I don't know how realistic this is in your particular situation, but maybe it will give you food for thought.

Quite frankly, I'd be damned prouder of having successfully written an automated system that worked, than being able to trade manually day in, day out, hour after hour. Any fool can work.

Discretionary systems: I wonder exactly what you mean by this phrase. You haven't defined it, and I don't think anyone else has asked. From reading far more experienced traders than myself, I gather that they very often have strict rules, but these rules don't define every possible situation; they are just a framework. Sometimes a setup can be perfect on paper, but the experienced trader doesn't feel that it's right somehow, and passes it up. That's one example of a discretionary (non)-trade, but it doesn't mean there were no rules involved.

I think that what I am getting it is that you seem to be posing automated trading and discretionary trading as two extremes of a spectrum, and I believe that may be a false dichotomy.

The hardest thing to program into any system is what we normally call "common sense". That's the discretion that a human trader brings to the act of trading, or should do.
__________________
Regards,
Mike
--
Still learning my trade.

Just because it worked, it doesn't mean that it works.
Think of losing trades as your training fees.
montmorencyt2w is offline  
Old Sep 12, 2009, 12:29am   #39
 
travis's Avatar
Joined Mar 2003
travis started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by barjon View Post
travis

That's your rational self talking and you're right. Unfortunately that rebel demon inside you just hates rules of any kind, even loosely framed ones drawn by your rational self. eg: rational self - " I should cut this trade now": rebel demon " no way, man, let's rock and roll".

If you can't cast out your rebel demon then you have to subvert him in your discretionary trading as you have done in your automated trading. Maybe this somewhat simplistic piece would help T2W Day Trading & Forex Community

Cheers

jon
Yes, thank you. I just read about "Jack" and his method, even though it's not a real person (but maybe the author talks about himself). I've done what Jack has done, by devising a method that allows me to make money - automated trading. I guess the only thing missing is making the system perfect so that it'll make money every day, which it doesn't. That way I won't come home, find a loss, and try to recoup it (and then usually lose more money). Right now the system has a drawdown as long as a few days. To be good enough it'd have to close every day as a positive day. Then I don't know if I'll find other reasons (I think there are) to start trading discretionary - first one I can think of is boredom. As I said I get a lot of excitement by trying to make money in the market. I think everyone will agree that it's one of the most exciting things.
travis is offline  
Old Sep 12, 2009, 12:42am   #40
 
travis's Avatar
Joined Mar 2003
travis started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenbobtrader View Post
"I was taught by my father to always push my limits further, and not trading discretionary because I am not profitable seems like quitting to me."

so deep down you believe its the limit ?

you believe your father, why would't you ?

your pushing yourself to breaking point to allign with your belief perhaps

you prove in the 1st 3 trades or so of a session your good enough to get consistent results then you go about F..cking things up to correct the result to the one you expect

= happy = you have aligned belief and result = all normal

imvho discretionary traders are ~

"rule-governed. If a trader does not have explicit rules to guide entries, money management / position sizing, and exits, all the therapy in the world won’t bring a positive slope to the P/L curve."

by Brett





they are almost a machine even if they do not know it

they have developed ingrained good habit

Andy
You make interesting points simply by quoting what you quoted and by your remarks. I don't know how to reply, because I am still thinking about it. I will quote in red the things that got me thinking (some things you are quoting, by Brett, I've been saying for many posts, those about psychology not being helpful). Sometimes people make me think about something new simply by quoting something I said. Other times I read my old posts without knowing they're mine... and I say "who said this brilliant thing?", then when I find out it's me I say "wow, how could I be so knowledgeable back then?". Even when I was years away from being profitable I was writing brilliant things that still make sense today, because you could be doing 80% right, but that 20% you're doing wrong may keep you from being profitable. With automated trading it's faster to find out what it is (you find out before you even start trading). With discretionary trading it's foggy world, and you may never find out (so far it's my case).
travis is offline  
Old Sep 12, 2009, 1:11am   #41
 
travis's Avatar
Joined Mar 2003
travis started this thread I will comment as I read, because it's long and I would forget:

Quote:
Originally Posted by montmorencyt2w View Post
Hi Travis,

As before, you yourself know the answers to your problem better than any of us here (notwithstanding all the good advice given above). The problem is putting the solutions into effect.

For example, you said that for a whole year while you were developing automated systems, you didn't try trading in a discretionary way. You clearly get a buzz from programming (can relate to that), and it might be an even bigger buzz than you get from discretionary trading (and we should return to exactly what _you_ mean by that phrase below).
I don't know how I conveyed that, but I get the biggest "buzz" from discretionary trading
Quote:
Originally Posted by montmorencyt2w View Post
It seems to me that what you shouldn't be doing is trading, but writing systems for other people to trade, either with their own money, or (under very strict conditions, and of course, only the right people) your money.
Yeah, unfortunately just yesterday a friend whom I offered to help by giving him money to discretionary trading once he will show me he's profitable, now wants more - my money and my systems. I am kind of upset about it. That's what I get for being friendly. On the other hand, his efforts and ideas are giving me ideas for new systems, which I knew from the start would have been the case. But I hope he'll be able to learn what I couldn't learn (discretionary trading), rather than ask me to build systems for him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by montmorencyt2w View Post
In an ideal world, you would never even trade your own automated system, let along your discretionary one, so you may be able to uninstall the appropriate software from computers in your immediate vicinity, and have some distance from temptation.

I don't know how realistic this is in your particular situation, but maybe it will give you food for thought.
Yes, I thought about having my systems run on a remote server, and then connecting to it once a day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by montmorencyt2w View Post

Quite frankly, I'd be damned prouder of having successfully written an automated system that worked, than being able to trade manually day in, day out, hour after hour. Any fool can work.
Maybe like others, and definitely like myself, I tend to want what I don't have. As I said, I tend to push my limits further, by (my) nature. Even if sometimes what I am reaching is useless and doesn't interest me anymore once I reach it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by montmorencyt2w View Post

Discretionary systems: I wonder exactly what you mean by this phrase. You haven't defined it, and I don't think anyone else has asked.
I haven't defined it? No, no, I have defined it. I wrote many posts about what I mean by "discretionary methods/systems". But I thank you even for reading just one of my posts, because I don't have the patience of reading anyone's posts. What I mean is this. I believe first of all that unlike what I might have implied by quoting and agreeing with tenbobtrader and his quote of Brett (the whole talk about discretionary traders being like machines), there are no univocal rules in discretionary trading, and, by definition, there must be some part played by "discretion". Which in turn causes our inability to back-test and have future expectations based on such discretionary methods, which by the way we shouldn't even call "systems" (if I used the term "discretionary systems" I made a mistake). If a method has nothing but fixed and univocal rules and no room for discretion / intuition / instinct / improvisation / interpretation / flexibility, then that is not a "discretionary method" in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by montmorencyt2w View Post
From reading far more experienced traders than myself, I gather that they very often have strict rules, but these rules don't define every possible situation; they are just a framework. Sometimes a setup can be perfect on paper, but the experienced trader doesn't feel that it's right somehow, and passes it up. That's one example of a discretionary (non)-trade, but it doesn't mean there were no rules involved.
I hadn't read it yet, when I wrote the above, but of course I agree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by montmorencyt2w View Post

I think that what I am getting it is that you seem to be posing automated trading and discretionary trading as two extremes of a spectrum, and I believe that may be a false dichotomy.
Well, I don't know what dichotomy means, but if it's false, I have nothing to do with it, because I always tell the truth, even when I lie, like Tony Montana says. Now, seriously, those two things are in my opinion two extremes of a spectrum. With AT I can be at the beach all day, with DT I have to be at home all day, stressed out and on an emotional roller coaster. With AT I could let it run without looking at the markets nor making one decision for a whole week, with DT I have to make decisions and look at the markets throughout my trades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by montmorencyt2w View Post

The hardest thing to program into any system is what we normally call "common sense". That's the discretion that a human trader brings to the act of trading, or should do.
Yeah, I agree. I don't even have that common sense that I should program into my systems. And in fact my systems didn't come from my common sense, but from my interpretation of statistical data. Most of the time I wanted to build a different system, but then accepted what the data was telling me, and often built a system that was doing the opposite of what I originally had thought would work.

Last edited by travis; Sep 12, 2009 at 1:17am.
travis is offline  
Old Sep 12, 2009, 1:16pm   #42
 
travis's Avatar
Joined Mar 2003
travis started this thread All quiet today. No trading because it's saturday. I will have to test 9 volatility breakout systems - they work. Unfortunately that friend of mine is now hoping that I will give him the systems once I automate them, just because he came up with the idea. It was his idea, yes. It took him 5 minutes to tell me. By the end of everything I'll have worked on it for 200 hours, and he wants me to deliver the systems to him. True, I am the one who told him: "You can have these systems once I'll be done, because it was your idea". But... well **** me. Now my promise is like a debt - he immediately expects me to deliver everything I ever offer (like children do), plus all the things he asks. Now it's like I'll have to work for him, implement it entirely - he knows nothing about computers, and may even have to implement new ideas he has - if he starts relying on this as a source of income. It's not enough that I offered to give him the money to start discretionary trading on his own - thanks to which proposal he started to paper trade and now he's giving me plenty of good ideas. He's an honest person, very intelligent, even though with little formal education, BUT: I don't know what I got myself into. I've known him for almost 20 years. However, I am afraid that now - he's unemployed - his family will rely on my systems for future survival - which would really really be bad. I mean - the initial proposal was "get consistently profitable with paper trading and I'll give you the money to start", and in return he would have told me what worked. Now, after paper trading for almost 2 months and reasoning with me on trading, he's more like someone who remotely thinks that if he doesn't get profitable I will still give him the money (a few thousands) AND the systems that I developed "thanks" to his ideas (which actually I could have gotten myself, but I am letting him think it's all his merit). But this is not the case. Because then he'd be relying entirely on me for the rest of his life, and then he would try to convince me to give him all my other systems to him as well. I'd have to work for him for free, after giving him my money to invest. This is totally ridiculous. I am going to write him an email stating clearly that if he doesn't get profitable, I will still give him the systems I created from his ideas, but not the money, because that was not the deal. I don't want him to rely entirely on automated trading because he knows nothing about it, and I'd end up having to work for him for free, and maybe even give him more systems. Years of work given to him for free. This is way too generous and I may even do it, but on my free will, not because you ask me repeatedly and insist, because you want it really badly. I am sorry to disappoint you and I know you need money desperately but as we say in Italy "I offered you a hand and now you're taking my arm". You're getting too needy, and I am not ok with it anymore. You either limit your expectations of me or we forget about everything. One thing is to say "you get me started, you give me the capital, and then I'm on my own", and another is "you get me started, you give me the capital, and then you keep on doing everything for me". What the hell. I feel like never offering any help to him, ever again. It's not even that fair that he comes up with an idea that he thinks might work, spends 5 minutes to tell me what it is, then I spend a whole month back-testing it and automating it, and then we split the profits 50-50. If things were so easy, all he'd have to do is get a technical analysis manual and start throwing ideas at me, until, after working my ass off, I find that one of them works, and then we split 50-50. Not fair. Nice life it would be... I might as well make an agreement with somebody so that I give him my money and he accepts it in return.
travis is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Another Journal... trader_dante Trading Journals 25 Sep 19, 2010 10:43am
My little journal. HaloTrader Trading Journals 16 Jun 26, 2009 1:02am
The EA Journal! Victor90 Trading Journals 1 Oct 28, 2008 1:47am

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)